{"error":false,"id":["149976"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":149976,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/149976","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T10:52:57+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T11:08:20+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a7de533ee8d361e073919bba56314a630f8ba9b0039caa7a6f710d25578a6b90f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:52:57 - 11:08:20","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時53分）主席，我們請副秘書長及部長。"],["主席：麻煩部長、副秘書長上臺。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：副秘書長，本席在這裡首先要表達的是，偵查不公開已經成為中華民國司法體制上最大的一個笑話！本席想了很久，司法不公開不只是司法界的笑話，更是對付國會在野黨最主要的利器，就叫司法不公開，假藉偵查不公開的名義，讓國會對很多事情都不能夠瞭解清楚，人民知的權利都沒有辦法在重大事件發生的時候能夠讓立法院調查清楚。我想今天的會議，我們不是在鋪一些梗，但是本席從剛剛聽到現在，暗樁都已經開始在部署了，針對未來國會改革的聽證權、調查權，已經在明示、暗示法務部以後要對抗國會。本席覺得偵查不公開本來就是一個最基本的義務，但是法務部為什麼會做成這個樣子？沒有人相信法務部的偵查不公開！而司法院一直在睡覺，為什麼全國人民有這麼高的比例都不相信司法？","部長，剛剛有提到108年到現在，這都是在部長您的任內，有多少件偵查不公開的事情洩露出來，然後大家開始討論的？有多少件？"],["蔡部長清祥：我們有要求各地檢署每半年就要公布一次他們對於有違反的檢討案件數是多少，最後的結果如何，我們都會有要求。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長都不好意思回答本席的問題啊！108年到現在有七千多件，這麼多還是這麼少？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是蒐集來的、認為可能報導出來……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，七千多件啊！成案367件，處分15人，這是近親繁殖是嗎？七千多件最後處分15人，為什麼七千多件都會被洩露出來，然後最後只處分15人？本席在這裡請教一下，部長，偵查不公開，然後每一件重大刑案、重大的調查中案件都被洩露出來，光看一下鏡週刊，鏡週刊現在是法務部的專報是嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是！沒有這回事！"],["傅委員崐萁：法務部的週刊，每一份資料直接從那裡查比較快，本席要在這裡特別請部長，您可能是中華民國史上在位最長的一位部長，甚至可能會繼續連任。但是我們對司法界到底留下了什麼，可以讓人民來相信司法，本席在這裡請教一下，到底針對偵查不公開的部分，部長，在你任內做了什麼防制的方式？有沒有？"],["蔡部長清祥：有，我們就訂定了很嚴格的規定，很詳細的，本來刑事訴訟法只有一個很簡單的條文，就是偵查不公開，這樣子而已，但是如何去執行，我們透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布作業辦法，很明確的規定哪些是可以公開、哪些是例外、哪些是原則，我們都很明確地訂定。"],["傅委員崐萁：就像我們中央政府一再訓示要打詐，結果越打越詐，是一樣的意思嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不是，我們都全力以赴啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡再請教一下，我們目前所造成的問題，是要讓人民有信心，部長，人民要有信心啊！每一件案子，立法委員要問時就說偵查不公開，然後週刊寫得一清二楚，自由時報寫得一清二楚！本席在這裡請教一下，這到底是你們把他們當作一種管道來針對要打擊的目標把它發布出來，來帶風向、輿論，最後的結論及目的就是未審先判，是不是？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部不會做這種事情啦！"],["傅委員崐萁：不會做這種事，確定？"],["蔡部長清祥：確定。"],["傅委員崐萁：好，那本席請教一下，在高虹安的案子裡面，這個很精彩啊，很精彩。週刊報導他有三種手法來詐領，第一種是以低報高詐領助理費，第二個是利用抵帳手法侵吞助理加班費，然後是按月把立委辦公室相關的費用叫助理們來分擔，連三項都列出來，在當時大選前如火如荼，這三項週刊都有報導。部長，是您告訴他們的嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：不可能！因為……"],["傅委員崐萁：不可能，那他們從哪裡知道的？"],["蔡部長清祥：這些訊息是起訴以後的話，也許在起訴書裡面有記載。"],["傅委員崐萁：這不是在起訴書，在偵查過程當中就已經刊登出來了嘛！本席現在請教你的都是偵查中就已經刊登出來的嘛！"],["蔡部長清祥：那我們來瞭解時序，看是在偵查中還是審判後。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席再提醒你一下，在當時偵訊的過程中，吃飯時間到了，問他要吃什麼樣的便當，他說，他希望吃什麼樣的素食餐盒，還說便當好好吃，在哪裡訂的，這些通通都出來了。在偵查過程中，因為到了吃飯時間，問他要吃什麼樣的餐盒，他表達好不好吃，通通報導出來，這叫偵查不公開嗎？幾乎是同步的報導。本席再請教，同樣也是週刊報導，楊文科縣長說，他的競選總部的租金廠商有回捐，這樣子的話，是不是請法務部通告所有全國各級民意代表抑或是行政首長，參選過程只要跟人家借或租競選總部，那你租的對象就不能對你有任何實質公開的任何……連公開的贊助都不可以，是不是變成這個樣子？今天我們去租了一個競選總部，這個總部的業主對競選的時候捐助政治獻金，這樣就觸犯對價，哇！部長乾脆把它具文法制化好了，不能永遠就一個字「心證」，什麼叫心證？你們認為怎麼樣就是怎麼樣叫心證。這個東西也出來了，為什麼金額數字都有了？現在不是還在偵查中嗎？部長，是不是還在偵查中？為什麼這些資料都有了？","再過來，林姿妙縣長的事更離譜，說林姿妙縣長跟特定人有多少錢的往來、有多少支票、多少金額往來，這個還寫「獨家」，然後最後完完全全一點關係都沒有，但是打擊林姿妙縣長的選情是已經發生的效果。部長，為什麼都是這些縣市長，而且都是在大選前？部長，本席請教你一下，到底我們防制的方法是什麼，請告訴大家。"],["蔡部長清祥：我們嚴格的要求，一定要遵守刑事訴訟法的規定還有作業辦法，我們也辦了很多的講習，要檢察官來瞭解哪些可以公開、哪些不可以公開，甚至我們也轉達輔助的偵查機關也要遵守……"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，您回答的這些問題跟偵查不公開是一種笑話是一樣的意思嘛！有沒有立刻可以解決的辦法？"],["蔡部長清祥：當然，我們就是要一再的要求。"],["傅委員崐萁：這樣子啦！既然這個是刑事訴訟法第二百四十五條涉及洩密的問題，當然是要查嘛！本席請教一下，部長，是不是爾後只要偵辦重大案件，任何媒體同步有相關內容的報導，什麼獨家、什麼知情人士說，只要看到有相關的問題、相關的報導一出來，法務部第一時間就出來否認，說這些報導不是屬實，可不可以？"],["蔡部長清祥：法務部不干預，可能個案處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：什麼叫不干預？已經7,000多件啦！"],["蔡部長清祥：對，但是我們要求各地檢實際要做，法務部不能每一個地檢署的案子都來處理。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，第一個，大眾矚目的事情，如果部裡面可以先否認這些事情，而且立刻啟動來調查是從哪一個管道洩密，這樣是不是能夠澈底把這個問題根絕掉？報紙一登立刻就查，到底是誰洩密。第二個，政府單位先否認，先否認才不會未審先判，才不會法務部兼法官的職務，已經由法務部在調查，就等於法官都不用審就已經有判決的結果，把心證告訴全國國人，然後法官又不敢忤逆整個社會共同形成的氛圍。所以部長，這個事情要怎麼去解決？","本席跟你分享一下，2020總統大選、立委大選前，去上網都還可以看得到，選前4天本席參選的地區花蓮縣玉里鎮，一大早12個人被調去問，裡面支持我的不到一半，還有支持蕭美琴女士的，還有根本沒有管事的人，當天問到晚上9點多，一離開，9點半蕭美琴女士就在臉書貼說某區域立委候選人被調查預備賄選，臉書就貼出來，現在都還查得到。要謝謝法務部啊！那裡面支持我的人不到一半，還有支持蕭女士的，還有根本不管事的，結果那些人從早上6點鐘直接被敲門把人帶走，問到晚上9點，結果那12個人非常非常的生氣，回去全部都支持我。要謝謝法務部啊！結果本席在玉里鎮22個票桶全部都贏，我想今天這種帶風向的辦案，部長不能再做這種事情。"],["蔡部長清祥：不會啦！不會這樣做。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席剛剛已經建議，第一時間部裡面應該先否認相關的報導，讓他們不再有公信力。第二個，立刻啟動調查，到底誰洩密。如果部長有這樣的決心，我們相信大家就會相信法務部。","最後我們再看一下，部長您上次一直很好奇到底是誰講的，本席要跟您建議一下，台灣公民人權聯盟委託山水民意調查公司所做的調查，詢問百姓、民眾，檢察官辦案的時候會不會受到政治的影響？看一下結果是怎麼樣，85%的人相信會影響，只有9%的人認為不會影響。部長，本席剛剛建議您的方式真的可以用一下看看，說不定立竿見影馬上就有效果，就不會再有所謂的獨家內幕報導。"],["蔡部長清祥：是，委員的建議，如果他真的有涉及到洩漏或是違反偵查不公開，我們馬上啟動，要求調查，這個我們會做。"],["傅委員崐萁：第一時間，報紙出來立刻就啟動調查，看以後誰還會再洩密。"],["蔡部長清祥：啟動調查，我們來督導負責的上級單位等等，來依法調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：立刻調查就不會再有人洩密，可以嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是我們應該做的。"],["傅委員崐萁：謝謝部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：但是否認這個事情我們沒辦法。"],["傅委員崐萁：否認更應該要做。"],["蔡部長清祥：否認這個，我們不能未審先判，要經過調查。"],["傅委員崐萁：那你不就承認他講的是對的嗎？雞生蛋、蛋生雞，很清楚這個問題嘛！謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請吳思瑤委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":60,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-7","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","羅智強","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","傅崐萁","吳思瑤","林思銘","翁曉玲","賴士葆","王鴻薇"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長、內政部警政署率所屬相關單位列席就「為維護偵查程序之順利\n進行及真實發現，並兼顧人權維護，如何落實偵查不公開原則及相關流程缺失之檢討」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.556593750000001,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.353468750000001,"end":17.715968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.63096875,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":22.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.942218750000002,"end":29.933468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.33409375,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.494093750000005,"e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這個樣子沒有人去相信法務部偵查不公開而司法院一直在睡覺為什麼全國人民都不相信司法這麼高的比例部長剛剛有提到啊108年到現在也都是在您部長任內"},{"start":127.543,"end":151.278,"text":"有多少件偵查洩密不公開的事情而洩漏出來然後大家開始討論有多少件我們有要求各地檢署他們每半年要公布一次他們對於有違反的檢討的案件屬實有多少那最後的結果如何我們都有要求"},{"start":153.223,"end":175.868,"text":"部長都不好意思回答本席的問題啊一百零八年到現在七千多件這麼多還是這麼少這是收集來的認為可能報導出來那個部長七千多件啊成案三百六十七件處分十五人"},{"start":177.489,"end":203.854,"text":"這是近親繁殖是嗎七千多件最後處分15人為什麼七千多件都會被漏出來然後最後只處分15人我現在這裡請教請教一下部長偵查不公開然後每一件重大刑案重大的這個調查中的案件都洩漏出來"},{"start":205.68,"end":228.847,"text":"光看一下那個《靖州刊》,《靖州刊》現在是法務部的專報是嗎?不是。每一份資料,直接從那裡查比較快。我需要在這裡特別請部長,您在可能是中華民國史上歷史在位最長的一位部長。"},{"start":229.969,"end":230.47,"text":"甚至可能會繼續連任。"},{"start":249.611,"end":272.825,"text":"有,我們就訂定了這麼很嚴格的規定,很詳細的本來刑事書法只有一個很簡單的條文,就是偵查不公開,這樣子而已但是如何去執行,我們透過司法院跟行政院共同來頒布這種作業辦法那很明確的哪些是可以公開,哪些是例外,或是說哪些是原則,我們都很明確的訂定"},{"start":274.232,"end":301.175,"text":"就像我們中央政府一再訓示要打炸打炸結果越打越炸是一樣的意思嗎不是我們都全力以赴啦再請教一下我們目前所造成的問題是讓人民有信心部長人民要有信心啊每一件案子立法委要問偵查不公開"},{"start":302.947,"end":319.994,"text":"然後週刊寫的一清二楚 自由時報寫的一清二楚 現在請教一下這到底是你們把他們當作一種管道來針對要打擊的目標來把它發布出來 來帶風向輿論"},{"start":323.072,"end":352.268,"text":"最後就是結論目的就是為審先判是不是法務部不會做這種事情不會做這種事確定確定那本席請教一下在高鴻安的案子裡面這個很精彩很精彩這個週刊報導他有三種手法來乍理第一種"},{"start":353.663,"end":380.015,"text":"第一,以低報告乍領助理費。第二個,利用抵帳手法侵吞助理加班費。按月把立委辦公室相關的費用,叫助理們來分攤。連三項都列出來。在當時大選前如何如圖,這三項週刊都有報導。"},{"start":381.328,"end":382.368,"text":"本席再提醒你一下在當時在偵詢過程"},{"start":411.351,"end":438.553,"text":"吃飯時間到了問他要吃什麼樣的便當他說他希望吃什麼樣的素食餐盒便當好好吃在哪裡訂的這些通通都出來了在偵查過程中因為到了吃飯時間問他要吃什麼樣的餐盒他表達好不好吃通通報導出來"},{"start":440.339,"end":460.519,"text":"這叫偵查不公開嗎?幾乎是同步的報導本期再請教楊文科縣長也同樣也是週刊報導說他的租金他的租金競選總部的租金這個廠商有回捐那這樣子的話是不是"},{"start":461.904,"end":490.075,"text":"請法務部通告所有全國各級民意代表亦或是行政首長有參選過程如果只要跟人家借租借或租競選總部那你租的對象就不能對你有任何實質公開的任何連公開的贊助都不可以是不是變成這個樣子今天我們去租了一個競選總部"},{"start":492.302,"end":518.844,"text":"這個總部的業主來對競選的這個時候政治獻金來捐助這樣就觸犯對價哇 這個部長乾脆把他據文法之話好了不能永遠就一個字新政 什麼叫新政你們認為怎麼樣就是怎麼樣叫新政這個東西也出來了為什麼金額數字都有"},{"start":520.769,"end":537.519,"text":"現在不是還在偵查中嗎部長是不是還在偵查中為什麼這些資料都有了再過來那個林志廟現場的事更離譜林志廟現場的事更離譜連啊這個說啊這個林志廟現場"},{"start":550.509,"end":578.57,"text":"跟特定人有多少錢的往來有多少支票這個還寫獨家然後多少對金額往來然後最後完完全全是一點關係都沒有但是打擊零支票現場的選情是已經發生了效果部長"},{"start":580.186,"end":591.873,"text":"為什麼都是這些縣市長而且都是在大選前部長本希請教您一下到底我們防制的方法是什麼"},{"start":593.679,"end":619.857,"text":"請告訴大家我們嚴格的要求一定要遵守這個刑事訴訟法的規定還有作業辦法那我們也辦了很多的講習要檢察官來瞭解哪些是可以公開哪些不可以公開甚至我們也轉達輔助的偵查機關也要遵守您回答的這些問題跟偵查不公開是一種笑話是一樣的意思嘛有沒有立刻可以解決的辦法有沒有"},{"start":623.442,"end":649.002,"text":"當然我們一再的就是要求嘛好 這樣子啦既然這個是刑事訴訟法245條這裡涉及洩密的問題當然是要查嘛本席請教一下部長是不是而後只要有偵辦重大案件同步任何媒體有相關內容的報導什麼獨家"},{"start":654.793,"end":681.91,"text":"什麼知情人士說只要看到有相關的問題相關的報導一出來法務部第一時間就出來否認可不可以說這些報導不是屬實法務部不干預可能各案處理怎麼叫不干預七千多件啊對但是我們要求各地檢所以沒有關係我們不能法務部每一個地檢署的案子都來處理第一個大眾矚目的事情"},{"start":683.939,"end":710.488,"text":"如果部裡面可以先否認這些事情而且立刻啟動來調查是從哪一個管道洩密這樣是不是能夠徹底把這個問題根絕掉報紙一登立刻就查到底誰洩密第二個政府單位先否認先否認才不會為誰先判才不會防護兼法官的職務"},{"start":712.042,"end":740.411,"text":"已經由法務部在調查就等於法官都不用審就已經有判決的結果把新證告訴全國國人讓法官又不敢忤逆整個社會共同形成的氛圍所以啊部長這個事情要怎麼去解決本席跟你分享一下齁2020大選前總統大選、立委大選前選前四天其實上網都還可以看得到"},{"start":741.877,"end":769.773,"text":"本席參選的地區花蓮縣玉里鎮一大早12個人被調去問裡面支持我的不到一半還有支持蕭美琦女士還有根本沒有管事的人當天問到晚上9點多一離開9點半蕭美琦女士就在臉書貼說某區一位候選人被調查預備會選"},{"start":772.721,"end":797.47,"text":"臉書就貼出來 現在都還查得到那謝謝法務部啊那裡面支持我的人不到一半還有支持蕭女士的還有根本不管事的結果那些人從早上6點鐘被直接敲門把人帶走問到晚上9點結果那12個人非常非常的生氣回去全部都支持我"},{"start":801.566,"end":830.541,"text":"謝謝法務部結果本席在於李政22個票統全部都贏我想今天這種帶風向的辦案部長不能再做這種事情本席剛剛已經建議第一時間第一時間部裡面應該先否認相關的報導讓他們不再有公信力第二個立刻啟動調查到底誰洩密如果部長有這樣的決心"},{"start":831.687,"end":859.819,"text":"我們相信大家就會相信法務部我們再看一下最後部長您上次一直很好奇說到底誰講的我現在跟您跟您建議一下台灣公民人權聯盟所做的調查委託山水民意調查公司所做的調查詢問百姓民眾檢察官大案的時候會不會受到政治的影響看一下結果是怎麼樣"},{"start":862.938,"end":874.043,"text":"85%的人相信會影響只有9%的人認為不會影響部長我們真的本席剛剛建議您的方式真的可以用一下看看說不定立竿見影馬上就有效果"},{"start":875.407,"end":877.048,"text":"立刻調查就不會再有人洩密可以嗎"},{"start":904.543,"end":914.733,"text":"這是我們應該做的啦但是否認這個事情我們沒辦法做否認更應該要做否認這個我們不能慰險審判不能慰險審判那你不就承認他講的是對的嗎對不對計程單單身機很清楚這個問題嘛好不好謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}