{"error":false,"id":["150013"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150013,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150013","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T12:13:33+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T12:26:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:30","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a453d7eaa28d8495425cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6723eb8c8d87031475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"12:13:33 - 12:26:03","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":1321,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（12時13分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長，請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，我們衛生福利部存在的目的是什麼？我看到衛福部的網站首頁寫著：促進全民健康與福祉，最值得民眾信賴的部會。不錯喔！第一個目標是健全福利服務體系，優先照顧弱勢族群。這是你們的第一個目標，結果沒做到，部長，你有什麼看法？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個當然是我們的目標，但是我們需要整個體系動起來，才能夠逐步達到這樣的目標。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，我就直接問這個出養家庭、這個弱勢、脆弱、「糜糜卯卯」的家庭。我認為原生家庭最重要，像剴剴這個案子，我看到那份報告簡直是胡說八道！第一個，原本是由他的外祖母照顧，但報告說外祖母無法繼續照顧是因為經濟的問題。至於第二個出養的保母，你們說是她的資格不符，才會換成第三個保母，但這位是有多厲害，最後把他給虐死。第一個家庭是最疼惜他的阿嬤，因為最關心這個小孩的一定是他的家人嘛！如果是經濟上有問題，你們給予support就好，為什麼要這樣轉來轉去，難道是有抽成可以抽，還是有績效、有獎金，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以在我們這次的檢討報告中就有提到，未來這個事情就不是由媒合機構決定要不要出養，如果是因為經濟的問題，地方政府就必須提供協助，解決他的經濟問題，基本上就不需要出養。"],["蘇委員清泉：出養是下下策，大家的觀念要改一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：第二個，還說這個小孩子1歲會罵髒話，胡說八道！我自己生了4個孩子，男孩子學講話很慢，現在我也有了3個孫子，孫女差不多1歲多、2歲就很會講話，但孫子到了3歲都還不太會說話，什麼1歲的孩子會罵髒話，這個社工有問題、這個出養家庭更有問題。大家用膝蓋想都知道，這根本是亂搞一場嘛！這個小孩子又是在新北市與臺北市這種資源相對豐富的地方，如果是在我們屏東，不就要撞牆、要吃土了。所以你們講的這個實在是讓我們聽不下去啊！部長，要好好檢討！真的是要虛心、深入的檢討，這件事真的是讓人刻骨銘心。","再者，兒福聯盟在孩子死後也沒為他做任何事，居然連棺木、葬儀都要靠葬儀社免費為他圓滿。部長，你們衛福部都沒事情，全都推給縣市長、縣市政府。到底是有幾個機構在幫你們接業務？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前有8個得到我們審查許可的媒合機構。"],["蘇委員清泉：這些媒合機構、聯盟、NGO，我認為還是需要評鑑，就像醫院評鑑，你們要把它們掌控得好一點。譬如一個基金會，對他們的董事會、行政團隊都要嚴格的監督、評鑑、把關、考核，不然這個是笑死人！真的是笑死人！"],["薛部長瑞元：在這次的檢討報告中我有特別提出，對於這些媒合機構還是必須修正許可辦法中加強監督。"],["蘇委員清泉：接下來，像在我們屏東鄉下或原鄉是村長和里長最強，你們一定要善用村長、里長及鄰長，哪一個家庭有問題、哪一個家庭的小孩有遲緩的狀況，你們問誰最準確？問村長、問鄰長，哪一家是什麼狀況全都清清楚楚，是否有虐待的事情，只要問鄰長就會知道了，所以你們要善用這一塊。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個真的是非常重要，所以你們現在整個SOP都要改善。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們不要只是出錢給縣市，縣市卻做得「離離落落」，交給聯盟、交給NGO之後，他們就換來換去，連出養認定都沒有。","再來一個問題，我們職災有職災的地圖，保母的部分是否有設保母的地圖？"],["簡署長慧娟：我們是有一個平台。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們可以來做。"],["蘇委員清泉：哪裡有出問題都可以show出來，這樣就一目瞭然嘛！比照勞動部的職災地圖，把它show出來，因為現在小孩子……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們可以研究，但是它比較容易涉及隱私的問題，重點在於如何取得平衡。"],["蘇委員清泉：公部門應該沒有這個問題，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：保母是個人、是個資啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：出了問題就甩鍋給社工，社工有夠衰耶！薪水這麼低，還什麼事都丟給他，我真的很為社工感到不捨！"],["薛部長瑞元：出事的保母也有應負的責任。"],["蘇委員清泉：大家看到這個案件後都感到很不捨，把一個孩子綁起來讓他整晚站著睡，指甲被拔光光，頭上有被菸燙的痕跡，生殖器被燒得烏黑，腿骨還被打斷，大腦也稍微出血，世間有這麼悲慘的事情嗎？而且還發生在雙北這種地方？我們這些大人真的是要好好檢討，太糟糕、太糟糕了！","再來我要問兒科專責醫師的部分，剛剛陳菁徽也問過了，兒科專責醫師在這個案子裡完全沒有角色、完全漏接、完全沒有！找兒科專責醫師要上網填資料、要什麼什麼，我向大家報告，能夠去找到這些資源，還能把資料填得這麼好，那樣的家庭也不需要你們了啦！有問題的絕對是那些很脆弱的單親家庭，所以兒科醫師要如何加強角色？再來是要如何讓他們連結？是不是每一個都要有兒科醫師評估表、專責醫師評估表？這個真的是有效的，因為兒科醫師的眼睛很銳利，把孩子的衣服脫下檢查，只要他們的敏感度高一點，馬上就可以通報。部長，關於兒科醫師的角色，請再說一次！"],["薛部長瑞元：好，幼兒專責醫師有2個收小孩子的機制，第一個是自行收案，在去年11月之前，3歲以下的小孩子來看診時，你就要向家屬告知有這樣的計畫，並詢問是否願意加入，如果願意的話，幾個要填的資料就由醫師來填，這樣就等於收案了。在去年11月之後是新生兒通通要收案，這個部分就由接生的婦產科醫師詢問家屬願意指定的幼兒專責醫師是誰，並幫忙填寫資料，這是自行收案的部分。","第二個是指定收案，針對這次這種脆弱家庭或在收出養過程中臨時安置的，這個就一定要收，所以要由社會局把名單交給衛生局，衛生局就會去派案。事後我們就必須要去追蹤，如果在一定時間（目前的規定是6個月），譬如我剛剛提到的新生兒，在6個月之內還未指定的話，這個名單也會送到衛生局那邊，衛生局就會去詢問家屬並直接派案。","這些幼兒專責醫師有義務要定期對小孩子進行一些健檢，如果有一些兒虐的現象，或是通知要做健檢卻不出現，通知1次、2次都不出現就要回報社安網，讓社工可以再去追蹤，大概是這樣子。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們的理想很好，就是沒有落實！你們那個network好像很完善，可是也沒落實啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：是，所以這要再push。"],["蘇委員清泉：這裡漏、那裡漏，我是覺得非常可惜！現在幼兒專責醫師的認養也才達到百分之三十幾而已嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是四十幾。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個這麼好就應該要加強。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們會再努力。"],["蘇委員清泉：對於學齡前的小孩子要密切的追蹤。"],["薛部長瑞元：而且我們希望那些早療的個案能更早一點被發現。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們對於每一個小孩都不能放過、不能放棄任何一個小孩，現在都沒人要生，小孩子已經夠少了，你們還讓小孩的生命逝去，大家都要打屁股！部長，今天是因為你有道歉，不然人家要說你不適任了。看你今天這麼認真、這麼誠懇，所以我把提案都抽下來，不然你就要被譴責了，你知不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：個人的去留是另外一回事。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！但是你要有擔當。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我就是負責把這個問題找出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們也是很挺你，所以你要再「拚」一點喔！以上，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員的質詢。接下來請徐巧芯委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.31721875,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.59534375,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.902218750000003,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.67409375,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.15909375,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":36.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.84346875,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.41284375,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.682218750000004,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.48784375,"end":48.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.59284375,"end":52.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":54.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.992843750000006,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.321593750000005,"end":57.89534375},{"sp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哇 都中情情色色 有內代的情勢嗎 那個人問領導就知道了所以你們要善用這一塊 所以這個真的是非常重要"},{"start":350.422,"end":372.015,"text":"所以你們現在整個SOP都要改善都要改善不要你只出錢給管事管事離落落現在去到那個聯盟去到NGO你再外來外去出洋什麼認定也沒有再來一個問題我們職災有職災的地圖我們這個保姆擁有社保姆地圖"},{"start":379.763,"end":406.317,"text":"這我們可以來做哪裡有出問題都秀出來這樣一目了然比照那個環境部那個職災職災或者勞動部的職災地圖把它秀出來因為現在這個這種小孩子這個我們可以來研究啦這個部分當然他會比較容易涉及到的是隱私的問題啦那這部分的話如何去取得那個平衡"},{"start":407.117,"end":428.722,"text":"公部門應該沒有這個問題啦,好不好?然後出了問題就甩鍋給社工,社工有夠衰捏,情緒這麼假,還跟人家說等兩回,我覺得很替社工不捨捏。出事的保姆也是本來就有應付的責任。"},{"start":433.623,"end":443.287,"text":"這個案件喔,大家看到大家都很不捨啦,什麼一個小孩被打了,被他騎在睡覺,整個眉毛,肩膀被扳了了,頭到那裡還有吃粉給他搓傷,吃粉捏,粉給他搓捏,他的生殖器被燒到黑綠綠捏,還有槓架卡在他臉上,鬧到他又有出血,世間有這麼悲慘的事情嗎?"},{"start":460.233,"end":470.403,"text":"這個還在雙北這種地方我覺得我們真的是這些大人真的是好好的檢討了真的太糟糕太糟糕了那再來我就要問"},{"start":472.45,"end":496.613,"text":"額科專責醫師陳慶慧也問了額科專責醫師在這個案子裡面完全沒有角色完全漏接 完全沒有那我們額科專責醫師要去上網要添資料什麼什麼什麼我跟大家報告 要去找到這裡的資料還可以在資料上聽到這麼好那個家庭不用理了啦"},{"start":500.302,"end":519.657,"text":"會不會絕對是那些很脆弱的那些單親的那些那些家庭所以兒科醫師要怎麼加強角色再來要怎麼讓他們連結是不是每一個都要兒科醫師評估表專責醫師評估表這個真的是有效的因為兒科醫師也很快小孩子三個月長大看一看將來敏感度高一點馬上通報這個部長兒科醫師的角色再說一次"},{"start":529.573,"end":539.221,"text":"有這個幼兒專責醫師他有兩個對於小孩子來有兩個收小孩子的這個機制第一個叫做這個"},{"start":541.777,"end":568.88,"text":"自行收案自行收案的意思就是說在我們上去年11月以前的話那就是有小孩子3歲以下小孩子來看診的時候你就要跟家家屬提說有這樣的一個計畫那詢問說他是不是願意加入如果願意的話那幾個要填的這些這些東西的話就醫師來填然後他又等於收案了"},{"start":569.56,"end":597.057,"text":"那第二種情形在去年的11月以後的話是新生兒通通要收案那這部分的話就有接生的這一個婦產科醫師幫忙去問那家屬是不是能夠願意指定他想要的這個幼兒專責醫師是誰然後幫忙他去填寫這是自省收案的部分"},{"start":599.067,"end":618.408,"text":"指定收案指定收案就是我們這一次這一種錯過家庭臨時安置的收出養過程臨時安置這個就一定要收所以要由社會局把這個名單要交給衛生局衛生局的話就會去派案"},{"start":619.409,"end":644.02,"text":"那這些我們在事後的話我們必須要去追蹤如果在一定時間目前的話我們是6個月這前6個月比方說我剛剛提到的新生兒6個月之內他還沒有指定的話那這個名單也會到衛生局那邊去就由衛生局來詢問家屬直接他來拍案就這樣"},{"start":645.06,"end":670.315,"text":"那這些幼兒專責醫師他就有義務要定期對這個小孩子做一些健檢大概是這樣所以如果有一些餓餓的現象或者是說通知他來做健檢他不出現通知了一次兩次不出現的話那就回到要報給這個社安網讓社工可以再去追蹤大概是這樣子"},{"start":672.23,"end":692.645,"text":"裡面的理想很好,就是沒有落實啦。你的Network好像很完善,也不是沒有落實啦。所以這麼老那樣老,我就覺得非常可惜。又有專責醫師的任揚也才三十幾%而已嘛。目前四十幾啦。"},{"start":695.275,"end":708.089,"text":"這個這麼好的那就應該要加強學齡前的小孩子你要學齡這個小子怎麼沒有那個要密切的追蹤而且我們希望那些早聊的個案更早一點"},{"start":709.691,"end":717.521,"text":"我們每一個小孩我們都不能放過啦,不能放棄任何一個小孩,這沒人要生孩子,孩子有夠小啊,你小孩還要綁,還要撈他,大家都要打屁股的捏,部長你今天是有道歉的,怎麼沒人要跟你衝利不適呢,我看你今天這麼認真、這麼謙虛齁"},{"start":728.294,"end":728.594,"text":"蘇清泉委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}