{"error":false,"id":["150047"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150047,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150047","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T16:08:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T16:18:07+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:21","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733ac126a1a1f33c9ca025cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a6b801796c5b68923c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"16:08:46 - 16:18:07","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":2192,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（16時8分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，部長請。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。其實發生這樣的悲劇，我相信大家看了都很難過，但更重要的事情是我們真的要很認真的來看現在到底發生了什麼狀況？我們社會安全網強化的第一期計畫、第二期計畫，部長你會不會覺得很奇怪，為什麼兒少受虐的人數其實不減反增？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分應該是通報吧？是通報的，當然我們鼓勵通報也會讓本來在黑數的地方的這些案件量跑出來。"],["黃委員國昌：這是通報數嘛，實際的數目我們可能未來有機會一樣一樣來比，但是這一次發生了這樣的悲劇，我必須要跟部長說這讓我想到2019年的時候，一模一樣的報告在這個辦公室、在這個會議室其實有做過，那個時候我們檢討了非常多的事情，看到多數兒虐案件的施虐者是父母或實際照顧的人。但這一次衛福部在處理這件事情的時候，我在之前公開的記者會其實有想要公開請教一下部長，就是我看不懂的是衛福部認為這個保母不是實際的照顧者，因為如果是這樣解釋的話，我非常擔心我們的兒少法整個規範體系會崩盤啊！這樣子的解釋，部長您認同嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不認同。"],["黃委員國昌：你不認同嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我不認同。"],["黃委員國昌：或許未來，可能部長回去找一下，就是請衛福部的官員在面對外界質疑的時候，誠實的面對問題，因為想要透過法條扭曲的解釋，不僅沒有辦法解決問題，只會造成更大的問題，部長你同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以在我們今天的檢討報告裡面有特別就這一點，因為長久以來在社政單位裡面，因為分工得非常細，所以碰到問題第一個要想這是屬於誰要負責……"],["黃委員國昌：我們先……"],["薛部長瑞元：不是以這個個案……"],["黃委員國昌：我們以法論法，兒少法施行細則有限定實際照顧者只限於家庭內嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個在講的是第一百零二條……"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛，但我們現在在講的是第四十九條跟第五十三條嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那個不應該……"],["黃委員國昌：所以這樣子給媒體的訊息絕對是錯誤的訊息。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：錯誤的訊息，錯了，我肯定部長在這邊沒有要抝、沒有要文過飾非，錯了就錯了嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：好。接下來另外一個讓我覺得非常困惑的事情是，前面說是施行細則限於家庭內，後來這個說法被戳破了以後，改變另外一個說法，說是因為通報的時候孩童已經死亡，配合檢警調查，所以沒有按兒虐的處理程序來加以處理。對於這樣的說法，部長你同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不同意。"],["黃委員國昌：你也不同意嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：我也不同意。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是媒體的記者對次長的說法有扭曲嗎？因為我看到這樣的說法非常非常震驚啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分是不是讓次長來說明？"],["黃委員國昌：好，請。"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝委員。我們當時的講法是說為什麼沒有召開兒虐的重大會議，並不是說這不是重大兒虐的案件。"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下！沒有召開兒虐的重大會議可以用檢察官在偵辦所以不用召開當做擋箭牌嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：應該是還沒召開，可是因為我們……"],["黃委員國昌：我們先釐清一下，所以你也認為應該要召開，只是還沒召開嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：對，應該要召開。"],["黃委員國昌：所以跟檢察官的偵查一點關係都沒有嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：是，我們是在配合調查，還沒有釐清是不是一個全新的兒虐案件。"],["黃委員國昌：因為當這件事情發生的時候，全體國人都在看衛福部的態度，我們在開記者會的時候，地方政府有錯，就像黃珊珊委員講的，臺北市你們自己就是當事者，推什麼推啊！但我們在國會要監督的是中央部門，中央部門面對這些問題的態度，我們不希望看到透過法條的扭曲，我們也不希望看到透過一些莫名其妙的理由想要來文過飾非。","部長我帶您看，這個是2022年的時候，臺中市政府那個時候也是遭外界質疑發生兒虐事件而他們沒有處理好，臺中市政府給臺中市議會的調查報告。部長，我建議你啦，我現在不是在吹捧盧秀燕，我是很持平的看，您回去看臺中市政府給臺中市議會的這份報告，從內容的檢討到究責，而且也移給檢調，移給檢調了，他們提內容的檢討跟究責，這跟偵查不公開一點關係也沒有，也沒有違背。我希望最起碼我們的衛福部未來在出報告的時候，不要連地方政府出的報告都比不上！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，之前的報告內容比較簡略其實是因為時間的關係，至於剛剛委員提到這一個刑事調查的過程，其實不妨礙行政調查，因為它的目的是不一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，你說這樣的話我非常認同，終於有一個法律人站在備詢臺上說出實話了，刑事司法的調查跟行政的調查是沒有相互衝突的嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：很好！第二個問題，我要follow我上次請教部長的問題，蘇丹紅的事件，我在這邊跟你說輸入的時間要公告，你當天也給我承諾，部長，對嗎？我的記憶沒有錯啊！你當天給我承諾說要公告，但很奇怪啊！我上去衛福部食藥署的網站蘇丹紅不合格專區還是沒有輸入的時間啊！你答應我，食藥署不做，是上令下面可以不服從嗎？因為我相信部長不會騙我啊！你答應我輸入的時間當然要公開透明讓大家知道，怎麼現在專區還沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：我再確定一下，因為這邊有寫檢驗結果的日期，這個跟輸入的日期是否一致。"],["黃委員國昌：不一樣，我現在可以直接跟部長講。"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是這樣子的話，那就是少一個欄位，我再請他們處理。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼我一直追輸入的日期？我馬上秀答案給部長看，因為那時候部長說2023年12月11日已經開始逐批查驗了，之前我問高雄的公司的時候，我覺得很奇怪，逐批查驗怎麼進得來？你說那是在逐批查驗之前。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：但請部長看一下，我為什麼要追進來的時間，你有沒有看到在保欣公司裡面，有2024年1月2日和2月17日，那是在逐批查驗之後，問題就來了，既然都已經逐批查驗了，怎麼在逐批查驗之後進來的，還會被驗出來，那不是在海關就要攔截了嗎？部長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["黃委員國昌：這是什麼狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：我再釐清一下看看。"],["黃委員國昌：既然已經逐批查驗，逐批查驗給我們消費者的信心就是我們的政府在海關做好把關了，顯然不是這個樣子啊！逐批查驗了竟然還進來，這個是什麼狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我再釐清一下。"],["黃委員國昌：請部長釐清完了之後，給我一個完整的說明，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為這會牽涉到消費者的信心，如果當消費者知道我們政府在海關逐批查驗，但是還有東西流進來，這個逐批查驗可能就大有問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我們再把它釐清一下到底是怎樣。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","接下來請洪孟楷委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.84721875,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.28159375,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.37346875,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.301593750000002,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.34721875,"end":29.562218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.32159375,"end":30.996593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.025968750000004,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.57846875,"end":35.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.805968750000005,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.96596875,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.31159375,"end":43.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.846593750000004,"end":47.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.42846875,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.782218750000006,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.02659375,"end":55.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.49909375,"end":59.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.697218750000005,"end":5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有請部長好 來部長請委員好"},{"start":23.642,"end":51.449,"text":"部長其實發生這樣的悲劇我相信大家看了都很難過但更重要的事情是我們真的很認真的來看現在到底發生了什麼狀況我們社會安全網的強化第一期計畫、第二期計畫部長你會不會覺得很奇怪為什麼兒少受虐的人數其實不減反正"},{"start":53.582,"end":63.509,"text":"這個部分應該是通報吧當然我們鼓勵通報也會讓這個本來是在黑樹的地方的這些案件量會跑出來"},{"start":66.099,"end":89.71,"text":"就齁這個是通報數碼就實際的數目我們可能未來有機會一樣一樣來去比但是呢這一次發生這樣的悲劇我必須要跟部長說就讓我想到2019年的時候其實一模一樣的報告在這個辦公室在這個會議室其實有做過那個時候我們檢討了非常多的事情"},{"start":90.45,"end":119.249,"text":"看到說多數兒孽的案件施孽者是父母或實際照顧的人但這次衛福部在處理這件事情的時候我之前公開了記者會其實我有想要公開請教一下部長就是我看不懂的事情是說衛福部認為說這個保母不是實際的照顧者因為如果是這樣解釋的話我非常擔心我們的兒少法整個規範體系會崩盤那這樣子的解釋部長您認同嗎?"},{"start":120.53,"end":144.751,"text":"我不認同你不認同嗎對我不認同那或許未來可能部長回去找一下就是請衛福部的官員在面對外界質疑的時候誠實的面對問題因為想要透過法條扭曲的解釋不僅沒有辦法解決問題只會造成更大的問題部長您同意嗎"},{"start":145.431,"end":172.281,"text":"對,所以在我們今天的這個檢討報告裡面有特別就這一點因為這個是長久以來在社政的單位裡面他們因為分工的非常細所以一碰到問題第一個要想說這是屬於誰要負責我們吼先不是以這個個案為重心我們以法論法啦而造法施行細則有把它限定在說實際照顧者只限於家庭內嗎?"},{"start":174.308,"end":201.508,"text":"這個是在講的是102條的在講是嘛但我們現在在講的是49條跟53條嘛所以這樣子給媒體的訊息絕對是錯誤的訊息嘛錯誤的訊息錯了我肯定部長在這邊沒有要凹沒有要聞過是非錯了就錯了嘛好接下來讓我另外一個覺得非常困惑的事情是說"},{"start":202.918,"end":224.501,"text":"前面說是施行細則現於家庭內後來這個說法被戳破了以後改變另外一個說法說因為通報的時候孩童已經死亡配合檢警調查所以沒有按額內的處理程序來加以處理對於這樣子的說法部長你同意嗎?我不同意"},{"start":225.262,"end":226.483,"text":"我們當時的講法是說為什麼沒有召開額內的重大"},{"start":247.324,"end":247.344,"text":"因為齁當"},{"start":275.979,"end":289.329,"text":"這件事情發生的時候全體國人都在看衛福部的態度我們在開記者會的時候地方政府有錯就像黃珊珊委員講的臺北市你們自己就是當事人推什麼推啊"},{"start":290.168,"end":306.462,"text":"但我們在國會要監督的是中央的部門中央的部門在面對這些問題的態度的時候我們不希望看到透過法條的扭曲我們也不希望看到透過一些莫名其妙的理由想要來文過是非"},{"start":307.523,"end":329.274,"text":"部長我帶您看這個是2022年的時候臺中市政府針對那個時候也是外界質疑發生額內事件的時候他們沒有處理好臺中市政府他們給臺中市議會的調查報告部長我建議你我現在不是在吹捧盧秀燕"},{"start":330.214,"end":359.241,"text":"我是很持平的看您回去看齁臺中市政府給臺中市議會的這份報告從內容的檢討到究責而且已給剪掉了已給剪掉他們提內容的檢討跟究責跟偵查不公開一點關係也沒有也沒有尾一倍我希望啦齁最起碼我們的衛福部未來在出報告的時候不要連地方政府出的報告都比不上"},{"start":360.462,"end":375.352,"text":"委員這之前的報告是內容比較簡略其實是因為時間的關係那至於剛剛委員提到這一個刑事調查的過程其實不妨礙行政調查因為他的目的是不一樣的"},{"start":375.492,"end":390.594,"text":"部長你說這樣的話我非常的認同啊終於有一個法律人站在備詢台上說實話了刑事司法的調查跟行政的調查是沒有相互衝突的嘛好很好"},{"start":393.837,"end":421.663,"text":"第二個問題是我要follow我上一次請教部長的問題蘇丹紅的事件我在這邊跟您說說你輸入的時間要公告你當天也給我承諾了嘛部長對吧我的記憶沒有錯啊你當天給我承諾啦說要公告啊但很奇怪啊我上去衛福部食藥署的網站蘇丹紅不合格專區還是沒有輸入的時間啊"},{"start":424.039,"end":439.319,"text":"您答應我那食藥署不做是上令下面可以不服從嗎因為我相信部長不會騙我啊你答應我說輸入的時間當然要公開透明讓大家知道啊啊怎麼現在專區還沒有"},{"start":441.444,"end":465.803,"text":"這個我再確定一下因為這邊有寫說檢驗結果的日期這個是跟輸入的日期是否一致不一樣我現在可以直接跟部長講不一樣那如果是這樣的話那就少了一個來源因為我為什麼一直在追輸入的日期下一張我馬上就秀答案給部長看因為那時候部長說我們2023年12月11號已經開始逐批查驗了"},{"start":470.186,"end":492.881,"text":"之前我在問高雄的公司的時候我覺得很奇怪竹坯茶園怎麼進得來您說那個是在竹坯茶園之前嘛但部長請您看一下我為什麼要追進口的進來的時間你有沒有看到啊在保興公司裡面有2024年1月2號跟2月17號1月2號跟2月17號那個是在竹坯茶園之後喔"},{"start":496.582,"end":510.059,"text":"那問題就來了啊那既然都已經逐批查驗了怎麼在逐批查驗之後進來的還會被驗出來那不是在海關就要攔截了嗎部長您懂我的意思嗎我知道我知道"},{"start":511.856,"end":529.871,"text":"這是什麼狀況?這我再釐清一下看看好 那個齁請部長齁就是說既然已經逐批查驗逐批查驗給我們所有的消費者的信心就是說我們的政府在海關做好把關了嘛那顯然不是這個樣子啊逐批查驗了竟然還進來這個 這個是什麼狀況?"},{"start":532.847,"end":533.227,"text":"我們謝謝黃國昌委員的"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}