{"error":false,"id":["150048"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150048,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150048","日期":"2024-03-18","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-18T16:18:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-18T16:31:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:14","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/14550b3f67fe733a9e6122292d08312f25cd79889bed64eaf8ba9b0039caa7a605936a7ac3d5c2cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"16:18:12 - 16:31:26","會議時間":"2024-03-18T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議（事由：邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":2258,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（16時18分）主席謝謝，我想在開始詢問之前先做程序發言。早上9點鐘的時候，民進黨的委員在這邊講說主席有可能不公正，所以還要提案。但是到目前整個質詢下來，現在已經是4點20分了，我看到主席面對不管是國民黨的委員、民進黨的委員、民眾黨的委員輪流質詢，主持議事都是非常的明快、果斷並且有效率，而且民進黨的委員沒有一位表達主席主持不公正。也因此，我這邊再一次鄭重講，今天上午這樣將近一個小時的時間，有媒體下標說是藍綠互吵，很抱歉，國民黨團從來沒有要吵，國民黨團今天的目標、目的就只有一個，就是要求衛福部來衛環委員會好好接受質詢並跟國人說明清楚，是今天民進黨團惡意的提出所謂權宜問題，並且污衊主席不公正，所以本席在這邊質詢之前，一定要再做個程序發言。","謝謝主席，請衛福部薛瑞元部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，發生這件事件，大家都覺得非常難過，但是每一個不幸的事件背後，我們應該要記取教訓，並且好好的去預防下一次有可能再發生，你同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：衛福部什麼時候知道剴剴不幸離世的事件？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實是在死亡的隔日。"],["洪委員孟楷：12月25日？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是有通報過來。"],["洪委員孟楷：12月25日衛福部知道，當時第一個通報的是保護司？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來臺北市政府也有再通報社家署？"],["薛部長瑞元：那不是通報，它就開始詢問這個要不要開重大兒虐事件的會議。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是不管保護司或社家署其實在12月25日、12月27日也都知道了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：請教部長，全臺灣有多少這種收出養媒合的這些未滿3歲的出養童？到目前為止，衛福部這邊媒合了多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們目前掌握的是177個。"],["洪委員孟楷：177位未滿3歲？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，目前177位3歲以下的。"],["洪委員孟楷：媒合的？"],["薛部長瑞元：等待媒合。"],["洪委員孟楷：我問的是已經媒合了，現在已經有保母收養的出養童，未滿3歲現在有幾位？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要看什麼時候開始算。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們到現在還不知道嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是說已經收養成功了，這要看什麼時候開始算。"],["洪委員孟楷：這個出養的還會不會有被虐待的問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：出養之後的被虐待就是屬於家內的，仍然是要通報。"],["洪委員孟楷：你再回過來釐清一下，本席現在想要釐清的是12月25日、12月27日你們衛福部就已經知道了，當時沒有任何的警覺或思考全臺灣目前有多少一樣的狀況，會不會也正遭受到不當的對待？那個有沒有去了解？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是有177個是安置等待收養。"],["洪委員孟楷：177位安置等待收養？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：從過去到現在這3個月的時間，有沒有針對這177位去了解他們現在的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：有請地方去了解。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候請地方去了解？"],["薛部長瑞元：上個禮拜。"],["洪委員孟楷：你12月25日、27日就知道有剴剴事件發生了，但你直到上個禮拜媒體報導出來之後，你們才要地方政府趕快去看現在這177位有沒有一樣的狀況，或者有沒有被收養不妥對待。我想請教，過去這二、三個月在做什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我跟委員報告，程序上應該這樣，當它通報之後，地方就要去開檢討的會議，地方在10天之內召開檢討會議，在2週之內把報告給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，現在的狀況是12月25日、27日衛福部也知道了，全臺灣有多少出養童，你說有177位，是不是散布在全臺灣？是嘛！他就不是單一縣市的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在不管地方這邊什麼時候出具報告，照理講，衛福部身為中央主管機關應該要做一件事，我們趕快來確認，即便是有社工每個月去確認，但是如同剴剴事件來講，他也是每個月有訪視啊！可是到最後發生這樣的憾事，大家也在講是不是訪視的過程沒有落實、沒有直接去看，你怎麼不會想還有沒有其他出養童也有一樣的狀況？或者我們至少多一份關心、多一份了解。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！在這個過程當中，應該及早去做關心，這個我同意。"],["洪委員孟楷：為什麼本席會講這樣的話？本席在交通委員會，之前太魯閣事件的時候，當時也沒有人想到可能是工地邊坡施工而造成太魯閣號的狀況，所以隔一天之後，交通部馬上下令全臺所有邊坡工程先停工，一個禮拜、兩個禮拜內去做徹底的釐清，安全無虞之後才開放施工。一樣的道理，當你們12月25日、12月27日就已經知道每個月都已經有社工員去訪視了，怎麼還會發生剴剴這樣的不幸事件時，還有177個出養童，為什麼你們沒有一點點警覺心去察看？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這些其實都有一定的機制在做訪查。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是有一定的機制，剴剴這個案件沒有一定的機制嗎？那為什麼還發生這樣的情況？我講比較不好意思的，這樣對得起離開的人嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這個部分我們事後有重新再查了一遍，但是我跟委員報告，這種事情……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會檢討？在這件事件上面有沒有檢討？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然有。"],["洪委員孟楷：會有相關的內部懲處、究責嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該不是內部懲處的問題，因為以前的作業程序就是這個樣子，剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了，在法規的解釋上面，過去就是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席再請教，部長剛剛回復說因為時間太趕，所以報告寫得不好，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席也看到，這個報告我確實也看不下去，甚至我覺得你這樣條列式一點一點的，用ChatGPT可能3秒鐘就生成出來。當然，我不是要否定基層公務同仁的努力，可是這樣的報告擬出來就是讓大家覺得衛福部不想面對。那麼我請教，剛剛你說因為時間的關係而沒有辦法出具比較完整的報告，我們現在給你時間，一個禮拜可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：看委員會的決議是怎樣，因為報告已經退回給我們。"],["洪委員孟楷：早上已經退回給你們嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個禮拜內能不能交出一份完整、詳細，而且後續要怎麼樣改變的報告，本席還講到一個九點結論，有三點是中央機關要做的事情，中央機關要做的事情包括有沒有預算、有沒有期程、有沒有執行計畫單位，這些能不能在你的報告裡面寫出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：一個禮拜？"],["洪委員孟楷：可不可以？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我們試試看。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個禮拜交出針對這個案件後續的整個完整檢討報告，剛剛黃國昌委員拿出了臺中市政府的一個檢討報告，本席有看過那份檢討報告，本席也希望我們至少有完整的面向、整體的考量，讓國人知道衛福部是玩真的，中央、地方其實應該是一條心，沒有人願意發生這樣的憾事，但發生之後不是互相推卸責任，而是我們要去思考怎麼能夠讓我們的社會安全網更好，不要漏接每一個孩子，不要讓有可能的破洞持續蔓延下去。","最後，社工員也是真的非常辛苦，所以本席想要請教一下，之前我們有提到在112年底增加進用包括地方政府的專業人員、包括社工缺工的問題，112年底增加進用達6,198人。請教部長，到目前有達到衛福部預計的6,198人嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是4,190人。"],["洪委員孟楷：還差了快2,000人。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那是社工的部分。"],["洪委員孟楷：還差了快2,000人，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，6,198人是全部的專業人員，社工的部分我們希望達到4,190人，目前所有的從業人員是5,452人，所以大概是達到87%。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是還是沒有達到衛福部的預期。"],["薛部長瑞元：社工的部分是3,733人，大概是89%。"],["洪委員孟楷：都還是沒有達到預期。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有一點點差距。"],["洪委員孟楷：經過這個事件，本席當然不希望，但是大家會講有可能是社工荒，因為保護性社工也面臨高風險、高案量、高壓力的三高，以及缺乏督導、合作、資源的三缺，這個部分衛福部到底有沒有正視這個問題來做解決？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們當然會針對問題去解決，一方面就是執行……"],["洪委員孟楷：剴剴這個事件讓全國看到，會不會有可能也增加社工員聘請的困難？"],["薛部長瑞元：這要觀察。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席當然不希望，因為社工除了有他的工作使命之外，社工他們也很專業，但是另外一方面我們也不能要求社工只是做功德。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以合理的報酬、合理的待遇一定要提供，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，這部分我們也持續做檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以報告的部分，是不是針對社工面臨的高風險、高案量與高壓力，以及缺乏督導、合作、資源的三缺，能不能也針對三高三缺的部分做一點回應，在報告裡面把它寫清楚，未來更精進要怎麼做？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以，一方面當然是委員提到的薪資問題、薪資的改善。第二個是他需要支援、他需要有人來支持，包括社工內部的支持與社工之外人員的支持，例如出勤的時候，針對不同的個案，可能需要警察人員陪同這樣的支持。內部的支持就是說社工不應該讓他單打獨鬥，所以當他出去碰到了問題……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，看來你都知道問題，但是現在只知道問題沒有用，重點是要提出解決的方案。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我答應委員在報告裡面會把這些加進來。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長，我們期待你一個禮拜後的報告，不要再讓國人失望，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","接下來請黃珊珊。黃珊珊，黃珊珊委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","我們請羅廷瑋委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":206,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-6","speakers":["王育敏","黃秀芳","蘇清泉","吳思瑤","洪孟楷","林月琴","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","王正旭","李彥秀","徐巧芯","涂權吉","羅廷瑋","陳玉珍","柯建銘","傅崐萁","劉建國","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","楊曜","陳瑩","林淑芬","陳培瑜","賴士葆","郭昱晴","范雲","黃國昌","牛煦庭","吳春城","顏寬恒","沈伯洋","林德福","陳冠廷","張雅琳","葉元之","羅智強"],"page_start":61,"meetingDate":["2024-03-18"],"gazette_id":"1131501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131501_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第6次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請衛生福利部部長、教育部、法務部、內政部警政署就「社會安全網推動情形及策進作為」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131501_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.61159375,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.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午這樣的一個將近一個小時的時間有媒體下標說是藍綠互炒很抱歉"},{"start":60.715,"end":73.174,"text":"國民黨團從來沒有要吵國民黨團今天的目標目的就只有一個就是要求衛福部來為黃文化好好的跟國人接受質詢並且說明清楚"},{"start":74.013,"end":94.332,"text":"是今天民進黨團惡意的提出所謂的權宜問題並且誣衊主席不公正所以這邊本席在這邊在發言之前資訊之前一定要再做一個這個程序發言好 謝謝主席那我是不是可以請這個衛福部薛睿恩部長好來 部長請"},{"start":102.538,"end":123.323,"text":"委員好部長發生這件事件大家都覺得非常難過但是每一個不幸的事件背後我們應該要記取教訓並且好好的去預防下一次有可能是在發生你同意嗎對我們什麼時候知道衛福部這邊知道說這個凱凱的一個不幸離世的事件"},{"start":124.508,"end":139.427,"text":"其實是在隔日,他死亡的隔日12月25號,衛福部知道,當時第一個通報的是保護司再來台北市政府也有在通報社家署"},{"start":140.689,"end":143.451,"text":"那我想請教全台灣有多少的這種收初養媒合的這一些未滿3歲的初養童?"},{"start":161.018,"end":189.246,"text":"到目前為止,我們媒合了,衛福部這邊媒合了多少?我們之前掌握的是177個177位?未滿3歲以下的目前啦那媒合的?等待媒合那我說說已經媒合了,現在有保母收養的出養童未滿3歲,現在有幾位?這要看什麼時候開始算"},{"start":190.265,"end":198.097,"text":"對。"},{"start":198.362,"end":221.217,"text":"那會不會有我們這個出仰的會不會有還有被虐待的問題出仰之後的被虐待那就是屬於這個家內的也就是說這個要通報也仍然是要通報啦你再回過來釐清一下就是說本席現在想要釐清的是你12月25號、12月27號你們就已經知道"},{"start":222.27,"end":222.97,"text":"177位安置等待收養"},{"start":248.385,"end":262.574,"text":"那從過去到現在這3個月的時間有沒有去針對這117位去瞭解他們現在的狀況這是有請地方去瞭解的什麼時候請地方去瞭解的上個禮拜"},{"start":265.339,"end":290.471,"text":"所以你12月25號、27號就知道有凱凱這個事件發生了但你直到上個禮拜因為媒體報導出來之後你們才要地方政府趕快去看說現在有收養的177位有沒有一樣的狀況或是說有沒有被收養不妥對待那我想請教過去這兩三個月在做什麼對 所以我跟委員報告這程序上應該這樣當他通報之後他就要去開檢討的會議是地方"},{"start":292.992,"end":312.437,"text":"地方在10天之內召開檢討會議之後的話要在兩週之內把報告給我們現在的狀況是你12月25號、27號衛福部也知道了那全台灣有多少的這個初養童你說有177位是不是散播在全台灣"},{"start":313.724,"end":335.646,"text":"是嘛 他就不是只是單一縣市的問題嘛對 那現在就不管是說地方這邊什麼時候出去報告你照理講你衛福部身為中央主管機關你應該做一件事就是那我們趕快來確認即便是有社工每個月有去做確認但是如同凱凱這件事件來講他也是每個月有訪視啊"},{"start":336.727,"end":337.007,"text":"為什麼本席會講這樣的話?"},{"start":364.332,"end":389.545,"text":"本期在交通委員會之前太魯閣事件的時候當時也沒有人想到是說有可能工地邊坡要施工而造成到時候太魯閣耗的一個狀況所以隔一天之後交通部馬上下令全台所有邊坡部門先停工去做一個禮拜內兩個禮拜去做一個徹底的釐清安全無虞之後然後才去開放施工"},{"start":390.629,"end":417.35,"text":"那一樣的道理嗎?當你們已經知道說12月25號、12月27號怎麼每個月都已經有社工委員去訪視了還會發生凱凱這樣子一個不幸的事件的時候還有147個初養童為什麼你們沒有一點點警覺心要去做查看?因為這一些其實都有一定的機制在做訪查就是有一定的機制?凱凱這一家案件沒有一定的機制嗎?那為什麼還發生這樣的情況?"},{"start":421.182,"end":439.278,"text":"我講比較不好意思這樣對得起離開的人嗎所以這一個部分的話我們事後有就重新再查了一遍但是我跟委員報告這種事情會不會檢討在這件事件上面有沒有檢討當然有那會有相關的內部懲處究責嗎"},{"start":445.403,"end":464.225,"text":"這個應該不是內部懲處的問題因為以前的作業程序就是這個樣子那剛剛黃國昌委員也提到了就是說在法規的解釋上面過去就是這個樣子來那本席再請教部長你剛剛回覆喔說因為是時間太趕所以你報告寫得不好"},{"start":466.188,"end":482.627,"text":"本席也看到這報告我真的確實我沒有辦法看下去甚至我講是說你這種條列是一點一點的用GPT可能3秒鐘都生成出來當然我不是要否定我們基層公務同仁的努力"},{"start":483.268,"end":505.228,"text":"可是這樣的報告你出來就是讓大家覺得說你衛福部不想面對好 那我請教剛剛你講說因為時間的關係你沒有辦法出去比較完整的報告那我們現在給你時間一個禮拜可不可以呃 看看委員會這邊的決議是怎樣一個禮拜可不可以退回給你們嘛早上已經退回給你們嘛"},{"start":506.008,"end":506.349,"text":"一個禮拜﹖可不可以"},{"start":531.141,"end":539.867,"text":"一個禮拜交出針對這個案件後續的整個完整檢討報告剛剛黃國昌委員拿出了臺中市政府"},{"start":541.038,"end":557.922,"text":"的一個檢討報告本席也希望本席有看過那份檢討報告本席也希望我們至少有完整的面向整體的一個考量讓國人知道說衛福部真的是完真的中央地方其實應該是一條心"},{"start":559.923,"end":559.943,"text":"好"},{"start":582.475,"end":601.673,"text":"最後 抱歉主席一分鐘時間喔社工員也是真的是非常的辛苦所以本席想要請教一下之前我們有提到在112年底增加禁用包括地方政府的專業人員包括這一些社工缺工的問題說"},{"start":603.894,"end":614.32,"text":"112年年底增加禁用達6198人那請教我們預計到目前有達到我們衛福部預計的6198人目前的話是4190還差了快2000人社工的部分"},{"start":622.265,"end":630.77,"text":"6199是全部的專業人員那社工是我們希望達到4190那目前的話實際上的這一個所有的從業的人員是5452所以大概已經達到87%社工的部分是3733人所以大概是89%"},{"start":650.811,"end":652.092,"text":"那這樣的一個部分衛福部到底有沒有"},{"start":672.381,"end":673.042,"text":"會不會有可能也增加社工員聘請的困難?"},{"start":688.998,"end":706.131,"text":"這要觀察啦本席當然不希望因為社工除了他有他的一個工作使命以外社工當然他們也很專業但是另外一方面我們也不能要求社工只是當做功德所以合理的報酬跟合理的待遇一定要提供"},{"start":713.698,"end":728.331,"text":"社工面臨的高風險、高案量跟高壓力以及缺乏督導合作資源的三缺、三高三缺的部分能不能也針對這部分來做一點回應在報告裡面把它給寫清楚未來經濟要怎麼做"},{"start":730.211,"end":744.003,"text":"這部分的話當然就是說一方面當然委員提到了薪資的問題是薪資的改善第二個是他需要資源他是需要有人來支持他這個支持包括社工內部的支持跟"},{"start":745.765,"end":762.185,"text":"社工之外的人員的支持,比如說出去出勤的時候,有的針對不同的個案,可能需要警察人員陪同,這樣子的一個支持。內部的支持就是說,"},{"start":765.996,"end":766.877,"text":"我們謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}