{"error":false,"id":["150053"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150053,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150053","日期":"2024-03-19","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-19T09:34:08+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-19T09:50:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:54","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/59f92d7d7345497fec3fbe4c0232f54ef400872fcf4c8a93f8ba9b0039caa7a66c9026818a35f3055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"09:34:08 - 09:50:02","會議時間":"2024-03-19T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第5次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月15日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月19日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":247,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（9時34分）有請院長。"],["主席：請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員早安。"],["吳委員春城：院長好，院長辛苦了。"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["吳委員春城：不知道院長有沒有注意到，在前面有6次的國是論壇，我都在談壯世代，你有聽到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是，有。"],["吳委員春城：為什麼談六次？因為很重要！可不可以請院長稍微簡單介紹一下壯世代是什麼？如果你理解的話，我就不用再重講。"],["陳院長建仁：壯世代是教科文協會的倡議，也就是50歲到70歲具有活力的、還有積極性的這一個世代應該稱為壯世代。因為從個人覺醒、企業參與及政府政策思維改變時，我們應該考慮到壯世代對社會還是有所貢獻。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝院長很認真聽這個課程。希望我們接下來的談話有助於福國利民，也就是不要瞎扯，是很認真的一場對話，我也很認真地準備。院長有看到今天的頭條新聞嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：有。"],["吳委員春城：兒虐案打成世紀大混戰，昨天國會吵成一團，然後從總統、市長，幾乎所有部門都有關，但最後是社工被戴上手銬，又為此吵成一團！薛部長昨天終於說出實話，社安網有缺陷，也講出這是一個體制問題，要從各方面去追究，而不是單一責任的問題。從這點可以看得出，政府在處理事情就是表面功夫，至於實質病灶在哪裡？請問院長社工問題及病灶。"],["陳院長建仁：有關社安網的這個事件、兒虐事件，實際上，地方政府及民間的委託機構，以及中央政府通通需要一起來合作，才能夠使整個社安網很健全。所以不可能只由政府來照顧，需要跟民間一起合作，中央跟地方也要合作……"],["吳委員春城：院長，深度還不夠！其實再更深的深度就是這一張圖。"],["陳院長建仁：人口結構嗎？"],["吳委員春城：臺灣人口結構大翻轉！這張表有兩邊，一個是1970年，一個是2040年。大概在2010年往前三十年就是1970年的樣態，請院長看這裡，當時國人年齡中位數是19.3歲，往後三十年到2040年，臺灣的中位數是52.4歲，落差有多大？從19歲變成52.4歲！至於我們的幼年人口，在1970年是39.7%，接下來是10.2%，足見人口有這麼大的翻轉！但我們可以看得出來，院長，我們現在是用1970年的腦袋在處理社安問題，還是用2040年的腦袋在處理？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們是用2024年的腦袋在處理，政府在施政的時候，確實都有考慮到整個人口結構的問題，所以對少子化有擬定少子化對策；我們也知道有老人長照問題，所以有長照對策；我們知道年輕人是三明治族群，所以對這三明治族群……"],["吳委員春城：院長，現在政府的人口思維是一個破碎的思維，無法根本解決到這個生態問題。為什麼要推動壯世代？這是指臺灣人口大翻轉，未來整個社會，剛才是正三角形，未來會變倒三角形，這個結構性的轉變何其大？但我們現在是破碎，沒有整體策略！院長，你是壯世代的楷模，你在65歲時擔任副總統，72歲接任行政院長。通常這個年紀，在我們國人的習慣裡，就是應該要退休了，但你積極展開第三人生，這是一個典範。院長，你個人是用2040年的腦袋在奮戰你的人生，但是我們看你的部會，卻是用1970年代的腦袋在制定政策！院長，中高齡就業促進法規定，45歲就是中高齡，這夠不夠離譜啊？如果出國念書回來都快40歲了，工作沒幾年就已經要待退了，這是我們政府的制度！老人福利法規定65歲就是老人，高齡科技都是養生養病，而交通部把75歲視為危險分子，院長，你快要是危險分子了，要取消他的駕照，重新考照……"],["陳院長建仁：對，要重新考照。"],["吳委員春城：教育部終身學習司的預算是3.4億，服務的對象是600萬人，平均一人一年預算是57元台幣；數位部的部分，數位落差不在偏鄉而在臺北市，我們高齡者的數位落差達到60%，企業針對65歲以上所投放的廣告只占其行銷費用5%，完全放棄這個市場；消基會調查，有80% 50歲以上的人在消費過程中感受到被歧視；在投資方面，65歲以上的人如果要買保單或是要投資金融商品，你會受到限制重重。請問這是用什麼腦袋在制定制度？院長，你底下的各個部會這樣做，這些你滿意嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：實際上我們在2021年的時候就有修正高齡社會白皮書，對，委員你這裡……"],["吳委員春城：你的白皮書，院長，我要講……"],["陳院長建仁：這本白皮書裡面我們有些檢討，當然還有需要再改進的地方，但是委員你講得很對，大家都高齡化，而且大家的健康狀況又很好，怎麼樣使這些人能夠壯世代……"],["吳委員春城：院長，不只是各部會，螢幕上這個是去年行政院提出的超高齡社會對策，臺灣明年就進入超高齡，這個被視為國安問題，但是現在臺灣對於這個部分看起來比兩岸的應戰能力還更差！這個對策的大綱我列舉出來了，這些應該是對高齡者所提出的服務，應該也滿適用院長現在的年紀，請問院長，在你看到的這些項目中，有那些是你所需要的？讓你看起來會感到動心的或是你所需求的？院長，有沒有？"],["陳院長建仁：我想以我現在的狀況……"],["吳委員春城：哪一項？"],["陳院長建仁：以我現在的狀況，可能我都還不是太需要啦。"],["吳委員春城：不太需要，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我個人……"],["吳委員春城：那行政院制定這個是給誰用的？"],["陳院長建仁：我想社會上高齡者有不同的健康狀況……"],["吳委員春城：不同的人，對不對？但你們制定的是給國人使用，臺灣將進入超高齡社會，整個社會未來這個部分將會占一半人口耶，如果院長自己都覺得不需要，那麼這是要給誰用的？","我們來看一下，今年的社福預算已經達到8,000億，但其實只照顧了15%需要被扶助的人，這個是占我們預算的最高項目，占了28%，比國防預算還要高，但卻只能照顧15%的人，其他85%的人是自生自滅啊，政府沒有對策，人口快速成長，請問院長認為未來社福預算要多少才夠用？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我覺得未來的社福預算就要看整個高齡者和幼兒這兩塊，包括高齡者的健康狀況，還有他們的生活需求而定。"],["吳委員春城：接下來我要談解方了，所以我請金管會的黃主委。"],["主席：請金管會備詢。"],["吳委員春城：我們請黃主委，先暫停，時間暫停。"],["主席：時間暫停。"],["吳委員春城：主委好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：剛才提到的困境，包括薛部長所提到的這是體制問題、有破洞，最主要的原因在於我們所看到的，其實我們現在有800萬的壯世代，這裡面有三種類型的人，事實上我們都把他……有些人很有資產，可以鼓勵他消費；有些人有資產但是被凍結；有些人則需要解放其勞動力，但是我們政府對這三部分幾乎都不重視，只在做社會安全網，所以你是撐不住的。我要請黃主委來回答，現在壯世代在資本市場掌握三分之二的臺灣財富，但是在我們的印象中這些人是又貧又窮又困又弱，請問為何會這樣？如何來活化他們的財富？"],["黃主任委員天牧：現在的65歲應該是嬰兒潮時代，當年臺灣經濟發展，他們的努力累積了相當財富。"],["吳委員春城：是，OK，對於這個部分，我接下來要說的是這個需要有積極的方法啦，剛才談了要有體系，不是哪裡痛就治哪裡！其實在綠色金融這塊金管會做得非常好，必須給予肯定，很用心，而且改變了生態，很有策略、很有方法。高齡社會來臨，這個也不是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳的問題，而是一個體制，包括整個社安網的制定，這個必須要有迎向高齡社會的金融戰略。這邊我有按照綠色金融模式提出二項壯世代金融行動方案，還有上市櫃公司的高齡社會永續發展路徑，我們是不是可以請黃主委比照綠色金融來做這個行動方案，是不是可以這樣子做呢？有沒有困難？"],["黃主任委員天牧：如果以金管會本身的權責，我們本來就對高齡化社會有幾個面向，包括維護權益、提供商品、加強教育跟有公平的評鑑，您所指示的上市櫃公司在永續報告書、公司治理評鑑上都有，我可以參考委員意見再強化這些內容，包括上市公司在 IPO時期也許要求它多一些對於壯世代的規範。"],["吳委員春城：OK，主委。針對這二項，院長可不可以有具體承諾？其實金管會在綠色金融這一塊，針對這二項的政策都已經有非常成熟的作業辦法了，是不是可以設定高齡社會金融，活化他們的資產，來發展我們的長壽經濟，這一點可不可以做得到？"],["陳院長建仁：我想這個是滿好的建議，壯世代怎麼樣對社會還有貢獻，讓他們的生命更有意義、更有價值，我想我們會請相關部會跟金管會一起攜手合作，就壯世代金融行動方案及上市櫃公司高齡社會永續報告，我們會請金管會這邊來做研議。"],["吳委員春城：所以院長可以責成金管會……"],["陳院長建仁：還有各部會一起合作。"],["吳委員春城：在這二項中是不是可以提出？因為這個也會涉及到其他部會，包括勞動部、經濟部，商品的設計，工研院我也去拜會過，他們都在做銀髮族的商品，養生、養病、養老啦，其實這個是全面性的問題，包括教育部都有問題，每個部會都有問題，國科會設計的高齡科技也都是有問題，這需要落實到一些策略上面，院長是不是可以……"],["陳院長建仁：我們會從這個角度來努力之外，委員剛剛也講到高齡社會白皮書，我們這個白皮書未來也會做相關的調整……"],["吳委員春城：對，因為人設錯誤啦！"],["陳院長建仁：不是只有對弱勢者的照顧。"],["吳委員春城：我們現在都把這群人視為是又病又窮的銀髮族，是不是可以翻轉成為壯世代？讓他積極的展開他精彩的第三人生，因為這些人還有30年，不是遊山玩水、含飴弄孫就可以解決問題的啦！"],["陳院長建仁：這個我完全同意。"],["吳委員春城：院長，有734萬的壯世代在看我們的對話，因為大家都非常期待，這是一個時代的大翻轉，這個光是部會是做不到的，這需要有國家領導人的決心，如果都敷衍了事，這個結構性是沒有辦法變化的。其實各部會我都去拜會過了，大家都非常認同這樣的觀念，但是大家都一句話，沒辦法啊，國家目前的法律制度，也就是領導人都是這樣子啊！大家都把它當成插花政策，每一個都有一點高齡的東西，但是都擺在那邊好看的啦，都沒有成為核心政策，但是一邊又說這是國安問題，沒有決心。所以院長，520之後你說你不續任，那我們今天的談話如何能夠承諾，執政黨會延續你現在講的話嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我們一起努力，然後我會把委員的期待讓新的內閣也能夠有所瞭解，我們讓內閣的交接能夠無縫接軌。"],["吳委員春城：是，那是代表執政黨的承諾？是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：對。謝謝。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝院長。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員春城的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第4號鍾委員佳濱質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":156,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-5","speakers":["韓國瑜","邱志偉","陳冠廷","王鴻薇","林德福","吳春城","鍾佳濱","葛如鈞","麥玉珍","葉元之","張嘉郡","范雲","陳秀寳","林倩綺","鄭正鈐","張雅琳","王美惠","廖偉翔","陳俊宇","林憶君","邱鎮軍"],"page_start":67,"meetingDate":["2024-03-19"],"gazette_id":"1131001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131001_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第5次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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認真的一場對話所以很認真的準備那院長有看到今天的頭條新聞嗎有額內案這個打成這一個"},{"start":105.629,"end":129.282,"text":"昨天國會也吵成一團。總統、市長幾乎所有的部門最後是社工被戴上手銬,然後吵成一團。薛部長昨天終於說出實話,說社安網有缺陷,講出了一個體制的問題。"},{"start":130.96,"end":131.14,"text":"吳春城"},{"start":149.104,"end":149.284,"text":"市長,這個深度還不夠。"},{"start":175.891,"end":187.779,"text":"在更深度就是這張圖表。臺灣人口結構大翻轉。這裡這張表兩邊一個是1970年一個是2040年。大概在2010年往前30年就是1970年那一個樣態。院長看到這裡當時國人年齡中位數是19.3歲。"},{"start":203.382,"end":230.294,"text":"往後30年就2040年臺灣的中位數是52.4歲落差有多大從19到54歲我們的幼年人口在1970年是39.7那接下來會是10.2這一個人口這麼大的翻轉但是可以看得出來"},{"start":232.414,"end":254.897,"text":"議員長,我們現在是用1970年的腦袋在處理這些涉案的問題還是用2040年的腦袋在處理?我想我們現在在處理的話是用2024年的腦袋在處理啦。我們確實在政府在施政的時候都有考慮到整合人口結構的問題,所以我們對少子化"},{"start":255.265,"end":275.077,"text":"﹗"},{"start":275.282,"end":275.922,"text":"院長,你是壯世代的楷模。"},{"start":296.378,"end":313.226,"text":"你在65歲時候擔任副總統那這一個72歲接任行政院長通常這個年紀在我們的國人的習慣裡面就是應該是要退休了但是你積極地展開第三人生這是作為典範"},{"start":314.446,"end":334.823,"text":"所以院長你是個人是用2040年的腦袋在奮戰你的人生但是我們看這個你的部會是用1970年代的腦袋在制定我們的政策我們看這裡院長你看到這個中高齡就業促進法當中"},{"start":338.25,"end":362.212,"text":"45歲就是中高齡,誒是夠不夠離譜啊?40歲如果出國念書回來都快40歲了工作沒幾年就已經要代退了這是我們的政府制度老人福利法制定65歲就是老人高齡科技都是養生養病交通部把75歲視為危險分子院長你不要當危險分子了"},{"start":363.07,"end":383.327,"text":"要取消他的駕照,重新考照。要重新考照。教育部,終身學習室預算是3.4億,服務的對象是600萬,平均一個人一年的預算是57元台幣。數位部,數位落差不在偏鄉而在台北市我們的高齡者數位落差達到60%。"},{"start":385.683,"end":414.74,"text":"企業針對65歲以上所投放的廣告只占到他行銷費用的5%完全放棄這個市場。消費會調查有80%50歲以上的人在消費過程當中感受到被歧視。在投資方面65歲以上如果你要買個保單你要做一些投資金融的商品你會受到限制重重請問這是用什麼腦袋在制定制度?院長你底下的各個部會是不是"},{"start":415.866,"end":416.288,"text":"這一些你滿意嗎?"},{"start":420.151,"end":448.207,"text":"二零二一年的時候呢﹖就有修正這個高齡社會白皮書啦﹖那我﹖對﹖委員你這裡﹖你的白皮書﹖這個白皮書裡面我們有些檢討﹖當然需要還有再改進的地方﹖但是委員你講得很對﹖大家都高齡化﹖而且大家健康狀況又很好﹖那怎麼樣使得這一些人﹖能夠壯士大運﹖那個跟不只是各部會﹖這是去年行政院所提出的"},{"start":448.723,"end":475.649,"text":"超高齡社會對策臺灣2020明年就進入超高齡社會被視為國安問題但是完全現在看起來比兩岸這個的應戰能力還更差這個的大綱這個對策的大綱我列舉出來那這個應該是對高齡者所提出的服務應該也蠻適用這個院長你現在使用那你可以看到這些項目當中有哪些是你所需要的"},{"start":477.299,"end":483.444,"text":"讓你看起來會感到動心的你所需求的,院長有沒有。我想以我現在的狀況可能我都"},{"start":489.745,"end":490.605,"text":"今年我們的社會預算已經"},{"start":519.485,"end":522.307,"text":"院長請問你認為未來的社福預算要多少才夠用?"},{"start":548.305,"end":548.325,"text":"時間暫停"},{"start":577.66,"end":578.963,"text":"臨時發言委員．吳春城"},{"start":584.506,"end":609.434,"text":"主委好這一個剛才提到的困境包括薛部長所提的這是一個體制的問題有破洞最主要原因就在於我們所看到的其實我們現在有800萬的壯世代在這個裡面我們有三種類型的人事實上我們都把它"},{"start":610.626,"end":619.726,"text":"有些可以鼓勵他消費他很有資產很有現有些人有資產但是他這個被凍結有些他需要解放他勞動力"},{"start":620.598,"end":647.92,"text":"但是我們政府對這三部分幾乎都不重視只在做這個社會安全網所以你是撐不住的來我要請那個那個那個來回答我們的黃初維現在壯士在資本市場掌握三分之二台灣的財富但是我們的印象當中這一群人是又貧又窮又困又弱請問為什麼會這樣子然後如何來活化他們的財富"},{"start":650.254,"end":677.598,"text":"現在的65歲應該是嬰兒潮時代,所以在當年台灣經濟發展,他們的努力累積了相當的財富。是,好,OK,這個我要這個接下來,是要有積極的方法,剛才談的要體系不是哪裡痛哪裡治,這個其實在綠色金融這一塊金管會做得非常的好,必須給予肯定,很用心而且"},{"start":678.086,"end":678.246,"text":"﹚吳春城"},{"start":708.783,"end":718.976,"text":"我第一個請那個黃主委可以是不是可以比照這個綠色金融來做這種金融行動方案是不是可以這樣子做呢?有沒有困難?"},{"start":721.592,"end":744.253,"text":"如果以金管會本身的權責,我們本來就對高齡化社會有幾個面向,維護權益,提供商品,然後加強教育跟永公平的評鑑。那您所指示的上市會公司現在在永續報告書,公司治理評鑑上都有。那我可以參照委員的意見,我們再強化這些內容。"},{"start":745.134,"end":745.234,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":762.193,"end":762.233,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":781.452,"end":782.253,"text":"所以院長可以"},{"start":810.089,"end":810.449,"text":"﹚吳春城議員﹚"},{"start":831.349,"end":850.463,"text":"這個是全面性的問題,包括教育部都有問題,包括每一個部會都有問題,國科會所設計的高齡科技也都是有問題,那這需要落實到一些策略上面,院長是不是可以?我們會從這個角度來努力之外,委員剛才也講到這個高齡社會的白皮書,我們這個白皮書未來,"},{"start":852.865,"end":852.885,"text":"委員長"},{"start":877.718,"end":896.703,"text":"這個有734萬的壯世代在看我們的對話因為大家都非常期待這是一個時代的大翻轉這個部會是做不到的這需要有國家的領導人的決心不然如果都敷衍這個結構性是沒辦法變化其實各部會我都跟他們拜會過的"},{"start":897.603,"end":925.746,"text":"其實大家都非常認同這樣的觀念但是大家都一句話啊沒辦法啊政府國家現在目前的法律制度也就是領導人都是這樣子啊然後大家都把它當作插花的政策啊每一個都有一點高領的東西啦但是都擺在那邊好看的啦都沒有成為核心政策但是一邊又說這是國安問題啦沒有決心所以院長這個520當中520之後你說你不續任那我們今天談的談話"},{"start":926.707,"end":949.635,"text":"是如何能夠承諾,執政黨會延續你現在講的話嗎?我們一起努力,然後我會把委員的這個期待,讓新的內閣也能夠有所了解,我們讓內閣的這個交接能夠無縫接軌。是,那是代表執政黨的承諾,是不是?謝謝吳委員春城的質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。接下來我們請登記第4號,中委員嘉賓質詢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}