{"error":false,"id":["150105"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150105,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150105","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T10:27:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T10:40:33+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:07","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192cef623bc6d1bcdc82c38239db8676b4ff8ba9b0039caa7a6dcbf91617bdae11f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:27:26 - 10:40:33","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":581,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時27分）謝謝主席，我請部長，還有衛福部的李次長。"],["主席：好，請部長跟李次長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["李次長麗芬：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長，我看你勞動部跟衛福部有一些都牽扯不清，你接業務，他們要負責；他們接業務，你要負責。我們現在少子化越來越嚴重，去年死亡的人數19萬多人，但新出生的嬰兒卻只有13萬人，而且這個缺口我看是不好補，勞動部拚命拚得要死，現在的年輕人，你叫他娶老婆、生小孩，但二個人都要上班，因為二個人都要上班，結果這個小孩子要請保母，看到最近這樣亂搞一通，早就嚇死了，更加不願意生小孩，請問這要怎麼辦？衛福部，要怎麼辦？"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝委員。其實我們的檢討也看到這個事件對民眾、對專業人員的信任有產生一些衝擊，我們當然就希望把我們提出來的這些精進的作為，就是從中央到地方好好地落實，來重拾民眾對這些專業人員的信心。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們的網子看起來是編製得很好，像我們東港在捕魚的漁網一樣，外表看起來很漂亮，但是每個網子都有破洞，「漏脆脆」，所以每一個都漏接了。保母，大部分都很好，但是這樣你看雙北發生這種事件，連恆春都有！我跟你報告，這幾天有家庭兒童學的專家還有兒童心理學的專家都跑來跟我講，他們講得非常好，我等一下會講給你聽。","這個剴剴的事件，我們在醫學上叫做RCA，就是尋根之旅，我很用心地去看，剴剴這個小孩子被送到萬芳醫院的時候，其實萬芳醫院自己應該要警醒，那個陳姓的社工跟劉姓的保母，甚至劉姓保母姐妹都是換名換姓，都改名改姓喔，這件事你們知道嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：我們知道他有改名，可是不管他有沒有改名，其實我們的系統是用身分證，所以其實消極資格，不管有沒有改名都是可以查得到的。"],["蘇委員清泉：那個小孩子送到急診室的時候已經死亡了，然後這個社工跟保母就跟醫師講說，這個小孩子是他的外祖母在照顧，送到保母這邊來的時候是溢奶，導致窒息、停止心跳，所以送來急診室。社工聯手保母騙醫師，說他們現在聯絡不到外祖母，所以由他們二個來處理，希望能夠行政相驗、不要解剖，已經向剴剴的外祖母報告過，請問這個社工他知道這件事嗎？他知道實情嗎？次長，你也不知道嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：其實這個案子是醫院有通報，所以醫院也有看到相關的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：它是通報兒虐嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：是，是通報兒虐。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛我們委員在講彭婉如基金會，我非常地欽佩彭婉如女士，彭婉如女士的先生是誰，你知道嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：臺大教授。"],["蘇委員清泉：他就是我們的政務委員林萬億。"],["李次長麗芬：不是、不是！"],["蘇委員清泉：不是嘛？"],["李次長麗芬：不是、不是、不是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我在考你啦。我們的政務委員林萬億這7、8年來，社工都是他在帶，據說很厲害，帶到現在社工這種田地、這種境遇、這種地步，沒有尊嚴、沒有地位、薪資又差！社工已經快要崩盤了，所以這個怎麼處理？"],["李次長麗芬：報告委員，其實我們的公部門在社安網聘用社工的薪資，跟我們的公務人員沒有太大的一個差距。在私部門，就是中央補助給民間團體的社工，我們在今年其實也幫社工加薪，提高了8.16%，所以現在初任的社工，大學一畢業，他的薪資是到3萬7,000多。未來我們這個調薪的制度也已經制度化了，只要未來公務人員調漲，我們補助給民間的社工也會一併調漲。這幾年來，其實衛福部也一直在積極地來改善我們社工的勞動條件……"],["蘇委員清泉：我前天跟薛部長質詢，我就說小孩子如果想要照顧好，原生家庭其實是最好的，這個剴剴原先阿嬤將他照顧得好好的，但他就是沒錢，經濟情況不好，既然是經濟不好，你就在經濟上給予補助就好了，但你不是這樣做，而是交給什麼聯盟、NCO，我看這些聯盟、NGO很多都是在謀財的，然後這麼糟糕的保母是在害命，一個謀財、一個害命。愛爾麗集團的總裁說，這個是人神共憤，表示他不再捐錢了，他捐了1,000多萬給兒福聯盟，但董事長也沒事，真的是有夠不要臉，都文風不動，這像話嗎？你們都完全沒有督促，沒有什麼機制嗎？次長。"],["李次長麗芬：對於基金會的話，因為它是跟教育部立案的文教基金會，所以在整個董事會的監督，還有他們的財務狀況，就是要麻煩教育部，看能不能去做什麼樣的督導。在人員、業務這個部分，是我們衛福部的責任，我們也會持續地來做相關的督促……"],["蘇委員清泉：出養有獎金可以拿，然後又去找最便宜的保母，2萬5,000的保母就給他帶，我看它沒有在做什麼後續的審核，然後轉來轉去，好像又有KPI，是不是？又有獎金可以拿，是不是？怎麼這樣搞的呢！"],["李次長麗芬：沒有、沒有，他們在整個收養過程的時候，是分階段跟收養家庭有收費。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以這個是很糟糕的事情。另外一個我比較關心的是，聯合國兒童公約說小孩子成長不要跟父母親分開，對於這些女性受刑人，我去高雄女子監獄做過好幾次特見，全世界帶著小孩去監獄服刑的國家做得很好的，根據兒童公約，是瑞典、丹麥，俄羅斯也做得很好，普丁做得不錯喔，美國有八個州做得很好。我要跟大家報告的是，我要跟你報告的是，這個小孩如果讓他待在外面，結果NGO卻是在「踅玲瑯」，保母也沒有給予照顧，也是在花錢！照顧小孩是一定要花錢的。如果讓他待在監獄裡面，監獄裡面提供好一點的托嬰、托兒，就可以讓小孩子在裡面長大，晚上媽媽也可以跟他在一起，那個是很先進、很人性的，我們做得到嗎？教育部在裡面做設施，沒問題，教育部應該沒問題吧？這些錢本來在外面就是亂花的，到裡面好好地把這些小孩照顧好，在外面的小孩子，行為會偏差，心理會偏差。哪有人把孩子打成這樣，用香菸戳燙他、戳燙他的生殖器官，把它燒得一片黑，甚至把他打到骨折、打到腦出血，搖晃、什麼動作都來，這真的是慘絕人寰，這真的是惡魔、魔鬼！"],["李次長麗芬：跟委員報告，目前矯正署在女子監獄會讓母親攜子入監，其實它現在也有一些教保的、托育的設施，然後也會請專業的教保人員在裡面。這個案子新北有問母親說，如果你要入監，因為他其實還沒入監，問他如果入監的話，要不要帶孩子進去，但母親是拒絕的。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟大家報告，在女子監獄裡面的受刑人，85%以上都是跟毒品有關。"],["李次長麗芬：是、是，沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：在男子監獄裡面，我常常去特見，所以我很清楚，在男子監獄裡面，要嘛就是賄選的，要嘛就是什麼，其中跟毒品有關的差不多七成，但女的是85%以上、甚至到90%，這些都是微罪嘛！所以小孩子入監去跟媽媽一起長大，我們臺灣的資源那麼豐富，但我們是整個都破碎化，你管一部分，我管一部分，這是很糟糕的事情，能不能在一個時間內把這個事情統合起來？我是這樣覺得，如果沒有能力就去國外看一看，去北歐看看，去美國幾個州看看，甚至去俄羅斯看也不錯啊，去看看人家怎麼做的，我想臺灣可以做得非常好，好不好？"],["李次長麗芬：好，我們會跟矯正署再來討論……"],["蘇委員清泉：多久？多久會有一個初步答案給我？"],["李次長麗芬：因為今天法務部不在現場，報告委員，他們其實是有在做，然後他們甚至已經到兩歲，如果小孩子願意去幼兒園，其實也可以去幼兒園。"],["蘇委員清泉：現在閒置的國小每一間都撤掉，其實那個都可以用嘛，現在受刑人都可以到外面的工廠去工作了，這個有什麼了不起！這是很簡單的事情，我們的資源那麼豐富，好不好？"],["李次長麗芬：我們回去再跟法務部矯正署來做一個比較完整的報告給委員。"],["蘇委員清泉：我發現臺灣兒童這邊的專家，兒童心理、家庭兒童學方面的人還不少，都是從國外回來的，有從密西根、康乃爾回來的，最近這2天我就碰到好多個。好，次長請回。"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：接下來，我要問部長最後一個問題，這個是陳情案，剛剛也有跟你們講了，你們要召考人員，召考完後公告正取，然後叫人家辭職，快一點來報到；結果後來又一通電話說勞動部不同意，所以你並沒有錄取，你不用來了。可是你們不是已經公告了嗎？你有看到嗎？這是臺南市政府委託你們，由你們的南區代管、代訓，結果你們跟人家講說不行，職安署到底是在搞什麼鬼？他可以告你們耶！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個一開始是臺南市政府弄錯，因為這個檢查員他必須要符合資格，如果資格不符合，我們依照法令就沒有辦法來聘用他。"],["蘇委員清泉：已經正式公告、正式錄取了，什麼乙級、丙級，那個有什麼了不起，那個再考就好了嘛！可以這樣子嗎？可以這樣幹嗎？部長，可以這樣做嗎？已經公告，全世界都知道了，然後當事人已經將工作辭掉了。現在是什麼時代，這是這兩天才剛發生的事情，好好地補救，好不好？查清楚，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：勞工局現在在跟當事人協商當中。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，這種事情會發生在這個年代，我是覺得匪夷所思啦！是不是有貓膩，還是他們要進用別人，還是有拿到什麼好處？"],["許部長銘春：臺南市政府用人……"],["蘇委員清泉：這個很糟糕的！"],["許部長銘春：不是我們的，它把資格……"],["蘇委員清泉：你們反對呀，是你們反對呀！"],["許部長銘春：資格不符，報告委員，檢查員……"],["蘇委員清泉：資格不符，你給人家考試的時候沒有公告，你沒有說你這什麼資格，你在這裡胡說八道！部長不行，聽不下去，以上。"],["主席：好，現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時40分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","范雲","李坤城","洪孟楷","李彥秀","吳沛憶","洪申翰","牛煦庭","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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實也可以去幼兒園現在閒置的國小每一間就撤掉那個都可以用嘛"},{"start":634.609,"end":635.229,"text":"這兩天都碰到好多個了"},{"start":664.039,"end":687.554,"text":"那次長請問,我要問部長最後一個問題這個是澄清案啦齁,剛剛有跟你們講了齁你們要招考人員招考完,然後公告證取然後叫人家辭職,然後叫人家辭職趕快報到然後又一通電話說,勞動部"},{"start":691.857,"end":709.897,"text":"不同意,所以你沒錄取啊,你要來啊?公告這樣你有看過嗎?這是台南市政府委託你們,那你們南區代管、代訓,結果你們跟人家講說不行。治安署,你這個病什麼病啊?"},{"start":712.321,"end":731.632,"text":"報告委員,這個一開始是臺南市政府弄錯,因為這個要檢察院他必須要符合資格啦,你要是不符合這個就,我們依照法令就沒有辦法來這公告,正式公告正式入局,什麼乙級丙級,那個有什麼了不起,那個再考就好了"},{"start":732.632,"end":740.338,"text":"那可以這樣子嗎?可以這樣幹嗎?部長,可以這樣嗎?公告,轉席給他們知道,然後討論都實施了。欸,什麼實施啊?這我這兩天發生的事情。好好的補救好不好?查清楚好不好?好,這種事情喔。"},{"start":752.954,"end":779.294,"text":"發生在這個年代我是覺得匪夷所思是不是有貓膩還是他們要禁用別人還是有什麼拿到什麼好處台南市政府這個很糟糕的用人不是我們的只是他把資格錄你反對啊資格不符我這檢察員資格不符你招生你客氣的時候你都沒有公告你都沒有說你這什麼主席你到底在說什麼部長不行聽不下去以上"},{"start":783.367,"end":784.076,"text":"現在休息5分鐘"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}