{"error":false,"id":["150109"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150109,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150109","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T10:26:45+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T10:35:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192f46c7954122482051a6f552d80ae54d4f8ba9b0039caa7a6c5623f32ff13d98b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:26:45 - 10:35:10","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n【第一案如經院會復議，則不予審查。】\n【本日僅進行詢答】\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":398,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時26分）謝謝主席。本席邀請我們數發部唐部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長好。你現在說政府要推動電子簽章，所以你要先修電子簽章法，電子簽章法其實是民國91年就開始實施了，實施到現在也二十幾年了，但是因為科技、整個大環境的進步，我也同意、認為確實應該要修法，但是電子簽章法這部法律是二十幾年前就通過了，這二十幾年下來，請問部長你知道電子簽章目前的使用人數有多少？普及率有多少？"],["唐部長鳳：目前像自然人憑證，再加上行動自然人憑證來看的話，目前大概的人口可能是六分之一、五分之一左右。"],["林委員俊憲：那是自然人憑證，不是你的電子簽章啦！"],["唐部長鳳：那個就是電子簽章……"],["林委員俊憲：那只是其中一種，你要推的不是這種，對不對？"],["唐部長鳳：如果您說的是民間自行約定的電子簽章，目前數產署正在做調查。"],["林委員俊憲：你們沒有數字啦！其實過去有電子簽章這個法律，但其實根本沒有在推啦！我們就以自然人憑證來講，自然人憑證推到現在，大概也才900萬人，不到人口的一半；電子的自然人憑證，大概推了二年多，只有35萬人，所以對於這個電子的東西，一般民眾可能還不是很熟悉。","現在如果要來使用電子簽章，很多人就會問，電子簽章是什麼？我要去哪裡瞭解？我有問題要問誰？所以我就去我們數發部的網站看了一下，電子簽章是數產署負責的，署長，我去貴署的網站看，你們就有一個電子簽章專區，現在我是民眾，想要瞭解，我就點進去，但裡面全部都只有法規，就是電子簽章法規專區，民眾不是要看這個啦！誰看得懂啊！誰要看你的法律！你們現在是在推廣、教育的階段。"],["呂署長正華：是！是！是！"],["林委員俊憲：所以裡面也沒有Q&A，也沒有舉例子，也沒有針對電子簽章到底是什麼有一個解釋，你的網站沒有這樣一個專區啊！你設這個要幹嘛？"],["呂署長正華：委員，您的提醒很好，就是要讓民眾更加的瞭解、接近電子簽章，所以包括在法規制定的過程中，民眾的一些意見，我們會把網站的部分來做充實。"],["林委員俊憲：對啦！你網站要有互動，或者是你要提供基本的一些問題、Q&A或者舉一個應用的實例。"],["呂署長正華：是。"],["林委員俊憲：你裡面寫的全部都是法規命令，我也可以寫給你們看，民眾沒有要看這個啦！"],["呂署長正華：這個是法規專區，委員的提醒我們會來改進。"],["唐部長鳳：他們有拍一些廣告、短片什麼的，我想我們可以跟他們談，看能不能連過去之類的。"],["林委員俊憲：對，現在現在裡面都沒有嘛！另外，我們確實也需要提供民眾一個可以檢核電子簽章真偽的平臺，因為現在詐騙嚴重，很多民眾都對此存疑。此時你推這個，正是大家對於臺灣詐騙極度……就是極度不信任，你要推電子簽章，一定要讓民眾可以去檢核到底是真的或假的！"],["唐部長鳳：當然，除了簽章以外還有驗章，驗章也必須跟大型平臺合作。如果民眾要一個一個去下載廣告再去驗章，不如YouTube或Meta一定要驗章！"],["林委員俊憲：沒有錯！你剛剛提到大型平臺，現在數位平臺上的廣告是不是確定由數位部主管？"],["唐部長鳳：以我們的理解，經濟部已經原則同意了，現在是在進行相關的預告程序。"],["林委員俊憲：去年我們有修法，但去年修法只針對平臺上的投資廣告，當時是說給金管會管，對不對？因為最近謝金河很火大，還寫文章痛罵政府，說很多人假借他的名義講炒股票的事，但他報案也沒有用，所以問政府在哪裡？按照目前來講，這個案子是金管會管的？"],["唐部長鳳：對，是的。"],["林委員俊憲：金管會怎麼管？"],["唐部長鳳：作為電子簽章法主管機關，就冒名名人這件事情我們絕對責無旁貸。"],["林委員俊憲：對，應該集中給數位部管，之前的詐騙廣告要看主管機關是誰，然後丟給他，丟給經濟部，丟給內政部，丟給教育部，丟給衛福部。如果照你們之前的工作分配，數發部只管遊戲，只管電商、垃圾郵件。其實我認為其他的業務主管單位對於這種網路平臺上的管理，能量和人力一定不夠！"],["唐部長鳳：委員提的這張表是NCC在資安會報裡，負責網路犯罪的內容……"],["林委員俊憲：我知道，我對這張表很不滿！"],["唐部長鳳：我們已經主動跟NCC……"],["林委員俊憲：因為部長有講過……"],["唐部長鳳：我們主動要改這張表……"],["林委員俊憲：你有講過。你說數位平臺廣告就歸數發部管了，對不對？"],["唐部長鳳：所以至少要寫在這上面。"],["林委員俊憲：像金管會主委就回答，因為人家問他謝金河被冒名的這種詐騙廣告怎麼處理？但金管會主委只講，Meta在6月推動實名制廣告……"],["唐部長鳳：是的。"],["林委員俊憲：其實以後在平臺上的廣告，很多都會要求實名制廣告。要以實名制廣告投在網路平臺上，確實需要電子簽章。"],["唐部長鳳：確實……"],["林委員俊憲：所以推電子簽章其實是有道理的，只是程序上要好好做……"],["唐部長鳳：是。"],["林委員俊憲：金管會黃主委只講到Meta，其他還有YouTube、Google……"],["唐部長鳳：對。"],["林委員俊憲：還有IG、抖音、小紅書，OTT也有廣告……"],["唐部長鳳：沒錯、沒錯。"],["林委員俊憲：Podcast也有廣告。他們到底幾月的時候可以……"],["唐部長鳳：只要終端使用者能夠收得到的，我們現在就界定成網路廣告平臺業。若達到一定規模，譬如剛剛委員講的幾個都滿大的，這部分我們會優先跟他們做技術上的對接。委員剛剛提到一個就是，金管會目前確實有二個合資廣告，可是現在很多實質上的投資廣告已經避開那些字樣了，變成只是經濟情勢分析說明之類的。那個部分當然我們責無旁貸，我們會跟內政部在新的防詐專法來處理。"],["林委員俊憲：謝金河先生這麼火大，這麼生氣，難道不能處理嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：所以我們希望能儘快通過電子簽章法，讓我們有跟大型平臺要求的依據。"],["林委員俊憲：你要不要跟他解釋，拜託他耐心等到6月？因為6月才能推實名制廣告？"],["唐部長鳳：我們當然會儘快加速期程。委員剛剛提到YouTube，其實YouTube宣稱有做實名認證，但是它的驗章不是非常精確，所以到現在還是有跟名字差異的……"],["林委員俊憲：這就是我們的法律跟不上腳步，跟不上大環境的變化，所以就先要求業者至少要自律，自律才有他律，我們再用法律去要求他！"],["唐部長鳳：有。"],["林委員俊憲：臺灣現在出現一個很大的麻煩，就是網路上一大堆詐騙的東西，但第一個，沒有法律可以管理網路上這些東西，也沒有主管機關！現在部長說應該統歸數發部管？"],["唐部長鳳：對。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣至少我們知道數發部要負起責任！"],["唐部長鳳：網路廣告沒有法律責任……"],["林委員俊憲：因為現在沒有法律！"],["唐部長鳳：所以未來打詐專法會特別賦予……"],["林委員俊憲：我覺得打詐專法要儘快推出來！"],["唐部長鳳：完全同意。"],["林委員俊憲：這樣可以要求這些網路廣告平臺，並以法律來規範。"],["唐部長鳳：是，同意。"],["林委員俊憲：好不好？我希望這部分要加緊腳步，好嗎？謝謝部長。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員。"],["主席：林委員發言完畢。休息10分鐘。","休息（10時35分）","繼續開會（10時47分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","葛如鈞","林國成","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","徐富癸","林俊憲","邱若華","游顥","許智傑","蔡其昌","謝衣鳯","魯明哲","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","張啓楷","黃健豪"],"page_start":331,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案；二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽\n章法修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1131601_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.06409375,"end":8.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.176593750000002,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.06221875,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.926593750000002,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.96784375,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.785968750000002,"end":34.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.282843750000005,"end":41.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.86409375,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.07471875,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.33159375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.10659375,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.992218750000006,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.751593750000005,"end":62.789093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.29534375,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.93659375000001,"end":69.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.98721875000001,"end":64.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.79221875,"end":79.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79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對不對如果您說是民間自行約定的電子簽章那目前素材署是在做調查"},{"start":69.864,"end":84.066,"text":"你們沒有數字啦。其實過去其實有電子簽章有這個法律但其實根本沒有在推啦。我們就以自然能力憑證來講啦。自然能力憑證都推到現在啊。大概也才900萬人啦。"},{"start":86.148,"end":114.205,"text":"大概不到人口的一半那電子的自然冷凝症大概推了兩年多只有35萬人所以對這個電子的東西一般民眾可能還不是很熟悉所以如果現在要來使用電子簽章那很多人就問電子簽章是什麼那我要去哪裡了解那我有問題要問誰我就去我們速發部的網站看一下"},{"start":115.683,"end":120.048,"text":"電子簽章是哪個那個那個素材素素素素素素素素素數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數數"},{"start":135.919,"end":155.992,"text":"就告訴我們電子簽章法規專區啦那民眾不是要看這個啦誰看都懂啦誰要看你法律你們現在是在推廣教育的階段所以你們也沒有Q&A有沒有舉例子有沒有一些到底電子簽章是什麼的一個解釋那你設這個沒有一個專區啊你設這個幹嘛"},{"start":161.928,"end":186.414,"text":"這個委員我們這個您提醒很好就是讓民眾更加的了解接近電子簽章那我們因為這包括在法規制定的過程中民眾的一些意見我們回去會把網站的部分做充實對啦你網站要互動或者是說你要提供基本的一些問題Q&A或者舉一個實例這樣應用的實例嘛你裡面寫全部都是法規命令我寫給你們看民眾沒有人要看這個啦"},{"start":186.954,"end":187.735,"text":"那另外喔就是"},{"start":203.237,"end":228.962,"text":"我們確實也需要一個提供民眾可以去檢核電子簽章真偽的問題因為現在詐騙那麼嚴重很多民眾對這個都存疑你現在推這個時候正是大家民意對於台灣詐騙極度就對這種極度不信任那你在推電子簽章一定要有一個讓民眾可以去檢核到底這是真的假的"},{"start":230.86,"end":253.715,"text":"當然就是除了簽章以外還有驗章那驗章也必須跟這些大型平台來合作因為如果民眾要一個一個去下載廣告去驗章不如說YouTube或者Meta一定要驗章好沒有錯齁好那你剛解開一個大型平台嘛然後現在數位平台上面的廣告啊是不是確定由數位部來主管由我們理解經濟部已經原則同意了現在是在進行相關的預告程序好"},{"start":255.157,"end":280.085,"text":"去年我們有修法啦但我們去年修法是只有針對平台上面的投資廣告當時是說給金管會管嘛對不對因為我最近看到謝金葛很火大啦謝金葛寫篇文章痛罵政府啦所以他每次報案啦因為很多人都假借他的名義在講炒股票的事情嘛那他報案也沒有用啊他說政府在哪裡啦"},{"start":280.845,"end":291.573,"text":"那這個案子啊,如果按照目前來講的話是金管﹑好像是金管會管吧?對,是的,但是我們作為﹑那金管怎麼會管呢?作為電子簽章法主管機關,這件事情就是冒名名人的這件事情,我們是絕對責無旁貸。"},{"start":293.988,"end":316.198,"text":"對,應該是集中到數法部來管嘛你們之前就是說發生這個詐騙廣告那就看他的主管機關是不是丟給他丟給經濟部丟給內政部丟給教育部丟給衛福部那實際上如果這樣照你們之前的分配工作啊你數法部只管遊戲只管也只管電商垃圾郵件"},{"start":317.503,"end":345.469,"text":"他們其他的主管單位業務主管單位我認為他們對於這種網路平台上的管理阿能量和能力阿一定不夠阿委員提的這張表就是NCC在資安匯報裡面負責網路犯罪偵訪的內容的這張表我對這張表我很不滿阿我們現在已經主動跟NCC因為部長你有講過我們現在主動要改這張表對你有講過你有說世衛平台的廣告就歸我世衛報部管嘛對不對至少要寫在這上面阿當然所以像"},{"start":346.812,"end":362.409,"text":"像那個金管衛主委他就有回答啦因為人家問他像謝金口這種詐騙廣告怎麼處理嘛但是蘇阿布的我看金管衛主委只講到Meta從6月啊就可以推動實名制廣告是的"},{"start":363.69,"end":363.71,"text":"議員葛"},{"start":383.157,"end":399.152,"text":"但是呢我看到金管委的黃竹偉只講到Meta但其他還有Youtube啊還有Google啊對還有IG啊還有抖音啊小紅書啊是那OTT也要廣告啊沒錯沒錯Podcast也要廣告啊對那他們到底幾月的時候可以"},{"start":399.793,"end":400.353,"text":"我們會跟內政部在新的房價轉法來處理。"},{"start":426.089,"end":434.594,"text":"好,那謝金口先生這麼火大,他這麼生氣,那你說不能處理嗎?我們就是希望盡快通過三五通過電子簽章法,讓我們有去跟大型平台要求的依據。"},{"start":435.475,"end":457.313,"text":"那你要不要跟他解釋說拜託請你有耐心等到6月因為他說6月才能推實名制廣告我們當然會盡快來加速這個期程那像您剛剛提到YouTube其實YouTube是宣稱他有做實名認證但是他的這個驗章不是非常的精確所以他到現在還是有跟他名字差一個字的這個就是啦我們沒有法律有沒有法律跟不上這個腳步啊"},{"start":459.104,"end":488.268,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":488.516,"end":501.071,"text":"那這個就是未來那個打架轉法裡面會特別賦予我覺得這個打架轉法這個應該要盡快推出來完全同意這樣你才可以啊我們來要求這些網路廣告平台用我們的法律來予以規範好不好希望這個部分我們應該要加緊腳步好不好謝謝委員謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}