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10:30:41","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":450,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時20分）主席，本席想請林部長。"],["主席：部長，有請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。昨天內政部好像有發一個新聞稿，有關社會住宅租金分級收費原則的部分，這個部分用意非常好，主要保障人民權益以及照顧一些弱勢，讓我們的社會住宅能夠真正符合大眾需求。但在內政部提出來的最後決議方式是採用身分別來判定，我想部長您當過縣長，應該也碰過很多民眾的身分別不符合低收入戶或中低收入戶，可是實際上他是真的很困苦，甚至所得非常低的民眾，所以在這樣的情形下，本席希望除了身分別之外，可以也採用所得別做判定，可不可以雙軌進行？"],["林部長右昌：我們本來的方案就是雙軌。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們的方案是雙軌？"],["林部長右昌：我們本來的方案就是雙軌。"],["徐委員欣瑩：等於是身分別跟……"],["林部長右昌：就是比如說像臺北跟桃園有身分別，他就繼續可以用身分別，就是雙軌，對不起，是所得別。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以所得別跟身分別這兩個只要有一個適用就都可以？"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告一下，我們的政策目標是什麼？就是減輕社宅居住戶的負擔，照顧低薪青年跟邊緣戶，所以減輕負擔是重點，因此剛剛在講說我們把居住的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：先判定他合不合乎資格的部分。"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我們現在是把整個居住負擔從過去的30%是最基本，降為20%。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個我知道，這是我第二個要問的。我現在要先就判定身分的部分，你是兩種會共同來判定，比如說他身分不合可是所得低的，這種情形你們也會接受嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，地方政府要用身分別，它現在是用身分別就繼續下去，這兩個東西其實不衝突。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不牴觸，雙軌進行，確定哦？"],["林部長右昌：對，他本來就可以。我們要求的是什麼？我們訂的這個叫做天花板，在這個天花板以下都可以，我們要求地方政府對於社宅住戶的負擔不得高於我們現在訂的這個標準，那他要比這個更低，當然是可以接受的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是負擔，我們現在是判定。判定之後，接著第二個，你們昨天有提出現行是打折，比原訂的打折，但有一個問題是，他是現有社會住宅的住戶，他的租金不能適用你們新訂的標準。"],["林部長右昌：各縣市要去調啊，他可以去採任何……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以各縣市如果覺得可以，就可以按照內政部新訂的？"],["林部長右昌：現在本來就可以啊，中央並沒有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為我看你們的新聞稿內容還有草案……"],["吳署長欣修：我跟委員說明一下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這是吳署長？"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，因為各縣市的狀況的確都有點差異，所以我們在草案裡面其實有說，如果現有是採用所得級別，原則上還是可以繼續採行，因為尊重各縣市，所以可以繼續採行。所以跟委員報告，就是雙軌的進行。第二個就是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，雙軌了，但我現在要講的是所收的租金，你們現在有打折嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你要求現有的，除非解約後再重新才可以採用新的，可是他解約後不一定抽得到啊，所以現在你們既然有新的收費標準，他可不可就用新的？"],["吳署長欣修：所以我才說這個地方政府可以自行判斷，因為他現在還在續約期，還是可以續約的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，他續約時應該可以採用新的收費標準。"],["吳署長欣修：這個其實我們也是尊重縣市政府。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個都尊重地方政府？"],["吳署長欣修：對。我們是希望他可以理解過去的所得級別其實在認定上是很大的困擾，因為只憑報稅是會產生很大的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。所以這一塊地方政府有它的權限？"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。接著第二個本席想請教，現在梅雨季跟颱風季快到了，全國很多有抽水站的地區都是易淹水的地區，本席看到審計部的審核報告裡面有提到，全國在都市計畫區內有210座的抽水站，以一般你們委託的專業報告來說，抽水站只要年滿20年就應該要汰換、要更新，但目前在整個都市計畫區內，還有72座超過20年的抽水站沒有補助辦理更新，我們馬上梅雨季、颱風季要來了，這個會來不及，這個部分是不是可以請部長儘快補助經費？"],["林部長右昌：委員，報告兩個部分，第一個，這些抽水站一部分可能是我們內政部的，另外有一部分可能是水利署的，不太一樣；第二個是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以你們內政部全部20年以上的都有更新汰換了？"],["林部長右昌：我們陸陸續續。第二個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：要陸陸續續到什麼時候？因為依據本席手上的資料，你們在前瞻計畫裡面有很多是沒有用在這一塊，所以你們陸陸續續的話，今年梅雨季來的時候，這個會來不及，而且部長你知道，這一、兩年雨不是按照我們過去的經驗在下的，它一下就整個非常大，所以這一塊一定要預防。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告一下，因為我擔任過地方政府市長，這些抽水站絕對平常就必須要維管，而且必須保持百分之百的……"],["徐委員欣瑩：百分之百的運作。"],["林部長右昌：是，它必須要妥善運作，不可能讓它壞掉。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是我指的是20年以上的，它隨時有壞掉的風險，應該要汰換更新，所以這一塊部長如果承諾屬於內政部管轄範圍內你都有的話，那我們是非常肯定的，千萬不要到5、6月，我們聽到哪裡下雨、大淹水，結果抽水站不能運作，這個部分我們一定要預防。"],["林部長右昌：有關這個部分，經常性一定是每年的重點工作，我想這也是每年各地方政府汛期要到之前最重要的工作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。最後，本席想請教部長，對於中選會的選政選務合一，您的看法怎麼樣？"],["林部長右昌：選政選務合一？"],["徐委員欣瑩：也就是現在的選務都是在中選會，但是很多法令如選罷法等等都在內政部，所以對於選政選務合一，您的看法如何？"],["林部長右昌：最主要為什麼會在內政部，我想是因為內政部統轄的範圍，另外，民政也是內政部所轄管。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是因為民眾都期待我們有一個公正的辦理整個選政選務的單位，而且世界各國的選政選務都是合一，只有我們臺灣因為各種歷史因素或是怎麼樣，現在應該可以選政選務合一，內政部的這個部分整個讓中選會掌握，您有特別的意見嗎？對於選政選務合一，你的看法、立場如何？"],["林部長右昌：是這樣子，因為在內政部裡面我們比較好去整個統轄，因為包括警政……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是很多選務也不是你在辦啊。"],["林部長右昌：沒有，在地方政府基本上是民政系統在辦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是選務都是中選會在管啊。"],["林部長右昌：選務是中選會在管沒有錯，但是實際上選政……"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以中選會對接民政，你們也對接民政？"],["林部長右昌：對，你看地方真正在處理選政的話就是民政系統，另外就是警政系統，另外比較多就是公務人員的系統，這一部分其實都在整個市政府的管轄之下。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是整個選務工作大家都希望是一個中立、公正的單位嘛，所以這一塊……"],["林部長右昌：現在中選會是獨立機關。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是選政選務沒合一嘛，我現在問題就是選政選務合一的話，你的態度？你也認為可以合一嘛……"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我覺得這個……"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為世界各國都合一，只有臺灣不合一啊。"],["林部長右昌：每個國家的狀況可能不太一樣，謝謝委員的意見。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員。","跟委員會報告：在張智倫委員詢答完畢後休息5分鐘；在蘇巧慧委員詢答完畢之後處理臨時提案。","現在請黃建賓委員提出質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝感謝委員其實因為各縣市的狀況的確都有點差異所以我們在草案裡面其實有說如果你現有是採用這個所得級別那其實原則上我們是你還可以繼續採集"},{"start":246.489,"end":246.549,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":266.098,"end":266.138,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":283.727,"end":303.546,"text":"他續約的時候應該可以採用新的收費標準吧所以我們也是尊重所以這個都尊重地方政府我們是希望是說他可以理解過去的所得級別其實產生認定上很大的困擾因為只憑報稅那個是其實會產生很大的問題只憑報稅是很大的問題"},{"start":304.267,"end":314.061,"text":"所以這一塊地方政府有他的權限。是。好。那接著第二個本席也想請教就是現在梅雨季跟颱風季快到了。"},{"start":317.805,"end":335.761,"text":"我們全國很多有抽水站的地區都是易淹水的地區本席看到審計部的審核報告裡面有講到我們全國在都市計畫區內有210座的抽水站"},{"start":337.203,"end":361.104,"text":"以一般委託的專業報告來說這個沖水站只要免滿20年就應該要派換、要更新但是目前在整個都市計畫區內還有72座的超過20年的沖水站沒有補助辦理更新如果我們馬上梅雨季、颱風季來"},{"start":363.446,"end":365.088,"text":"委員報告兩部分,第一個是這些沖水站"},{"start":379.547,"end":391.738,"text":"一部分可能是我們內政部的那另外有一部分可能是隨意署的不太一樣那第二個是所以你們內政部的全部20年以上的你們都有更新汰換的我們陸陸續續陸陸續續"},{"start":396.142,"end":417.018,"text":"因為本席手上的資料你們在前瞻計畫裡面有很多你們是沒有用在這一塊所以你陸陸續續你今年沒雨季而且我想部長你知道就這一兩年那個雨一下它不是按照我們過去的經驗在下的它一下就整個非常大所以這一塊一定要預防"},{"start":418.679,"end":433.484,"text":"我跟您報告一下,這些車水站,因為我擔任過地方政府,這些車水站絕對是必須平常就在維管,而且它必須保持百分之百的運作,它必須要妥善運作,不可能讓它壞掉"},{"start":438.166,"end":443.593,"text":"但是我指的是20年以上的20年以上他隨時有壞掉的風險的應該要汰換更新的所以這一塊部長如果承諾屬於內政部的管轄範圍內的"},{"start":453.905,"end":468.974,"text":"你都有的話那我們是非常肯定的我們是非常肯定千萬不要到五六月開始我們這個聽到哪裡下雨然後這個大淹水這個抽水站它不能運作這一塊我們一定要預防"},{"start":469.734,"end":472.256,"text":"您對於這個中選會的選政選務合一您的看法怎麼樣?中選會?"},{"start":497.471,"end":498.832,"text":"選政選務合一您的看法如何"},{"start":514.28,"end":532.735,"text":"這個我想最主要為什麼在內政部是因為內政部我們統轄的這個範圍另外民政也是內政部所轄管但是因為民眾都期待我們有一個公正的對辦理整個選政選務的一個單位而且世界各國選政選務都是"},{"start":533.516,"end":533.536,"text":"聽起來﹖"},{"start":555.876,"end":565.247,"text":"是這樣子 因為在內政部裡面我們比較好去整個統甲 因為包括警政 警政但是很多選務也不是你在辦啊沒有 在地方政府基本上是民政系統在辦"},{"start":568.222,"end":596.668,"text":"但是是中選會,選務都是中選會在管啊?選務是所謂的中選會在管,沒有錯所以中選會它會接民政,那你們也可以接民政對,你看在地方真正在處理選政的話就是民政系統嘛然後另外就是包括像警政的系統然後另外就是比較多公務員員的系統那這一部分其實都在整個市政府的管轄之下"},{"start":597.308,"end":622.165,"text":"對,但是整個選務工作大家都希望是一個中立的一個公正的單位嘛所以這一塊現在中選會是獨立機關但是選政選務沒合一嘛我現在問題就是選政選務合一你的態度你也認為可以合一嘛因為世界各國都合一只有台灣不合一啊這個每個世界的狀況這個可能狀況不太一樣謝謝委員的意見"},{"start":626.689,"end":626.789,"text":"徐欣瑩"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}