{"error":false,"id":["150125"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150125,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150125","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T10:58:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T11:09:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:04","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192da12edc63094471bed861a3b97380652f8ba9b0039caa7a60f3b605d23068e905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"10:58:20 - 11:09:24","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案45案。[如經院會復議，則不予處理或審查]\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（10時58分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長，中國的四川去年年底又爆發嚴重的非洲豬瘟大幅傳染，當然非洲豬瘟這個問題在中國存在很久，而且不容易根絕，又大幅爆發。臺灣現在不是疫區，因為之前行政團隊都做得很好，把這個擋在國門之外，但是中國來的旅客所攜帶的這些違禁肉品，如果照目前給的資料，非洲豬瘟陽性的比例仍然還有將近12%左右、十二點多，所以狀況還是很嚴峻，那你有沒有什麼樣的方法可以保證我們絕對有能力可以把它擋在國門之外？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。非洲豬瘟阻在國境之外一直是海關不敢鬆懈的事情，因為這個涉及到養豬產業非常大的產值。"],["吳委員秉叡：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分，包含您剛剛提到的入境旅客，來自高風險地區，從桃園機場進來的話，不管是托運或手提，都是百分之百要經過X光檢查，而且有防疫犬加強查緝，希望有關肉品……因為您知道最難的是什麼嗎？就是夾在月餅裡面的那種東西，所以這部分是絕對不敢放鬆的。所以我們不管是進口郵包，還是進口的快遞貨物、入境旅客所帶的都是用X光全面檢疫的。"],["吳委員秉叡：在這段期間又查緝到多少，做了什麼樣子的處分？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分其實是連帶都不能帶進來的呀！就地銷毀。"],["吳委員秉叡：那查獲的時候會怎麼處分呢？除了沒收之外，如果說是跨境郵包，購買的人呢？還有那邊出的貨，你怎麼罰得到他？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們請署長……"],["吳委員秉叡：請署長回答一下。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，違反的部分是依照檢疫法的規定去處理的，帶進來的這些旅客，如果是從疫區進來的，第一次就要罰20萬，第二次就會罰100萬。"],["吳委員秉叡：我就是要瞭解這段期間罰了多少人、罰了多少金額，你有沒有統計過？"],["彭署長英偉：這個部分我們再跟防檢局、檢疫署那邊要一下資料再提供給委員，因為裁罰是由他們在裁罰的，海關查獲是移送給防檢署去裁罰的。"],["吳委員秉叡：是啦！查獲多少件，你總有數字吧？先不講罰的金額。"],["彭署長英偉：入境旅客的部分，我們現在已經總共查到九千多件了。"],["吳委員秉叡：九千多件？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：多久的時間有九千多件？"],["彭署長英偉：是從107年到113年。"],["吳委員秉叡：就是6年的時間？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：當然，每一個時程不一樣，如果用平均來講的話，一年就是一千五百件左右嘛！"],["彭署長英偉：大概是。"],["吳委員秉叡：一年一千五百件，所以每一天都有好幾件喔！"],["彭署長英偉：是，幾乎每天……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我是要提醒你。我為什麼要跟你算到這麼細，就是要提醒你，這個工作不能鬆懈，一鬆懈臺灣這麼多的養豬產業跟它的上下游，整個都會受到非常大的衝擊。我知道有媒體在complain、有遊客在complain說他們大排長龍，很辛苦啦！我還是要在這邊提醒你，因為對國家安全、這個對疫區的防制標準，就是寧願要嚴也不能夠因為他們的complain就鬆懈而放鬆，好不好？"],["彭署長英偉：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：把這個看好，對我們國家非常重要，要加油。"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：剛剛加熱菸的那個問題，加熱菸從去年3月通過法律，現在因為要做健康風險評估，我起先的瞭解是前面兩、三個月都沒有人送，可是去年6月開始就有送健康風險評估了，到現在都沒有一家評估的結果出來，也不跟你講說評估有過或評估不過，這個不知道你是什麼看法？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，因為健康風險評估……"],["吳委員秉叡：這個請教部長好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分是衛福部去處理。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道這是衛福部的業務，我只是問你，對於這樣子，因為這會造成你原來要課的稅課不到嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們也希望能夠儘快。"],["吳委員秉叡：其實一直在流失給臺灣的稅金啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：照理來講，正常的風險評估，我有請教過衛福部，他說6個月就應該會有結果，現在9個月了，都沒有結果！結果也不一定要是正面的或是反面的，而是你有沒有依照你的標準去評估啊！你評估的是怎樣？現在9個月不出來、一年不出來、一年半不出來，還一直拖下去，那你財政部漏掉的這些稅要找誰補啊？所以我的意思是說，部長，你作為同僚，在行政院院會的時候應該要有主張啊！難道不應該要有主張嗎？在我來看這就是行政懈怠啊！","我還聽到更不好的傳言，坊間有人在傳說，為什麼弄那麼久都不過呢？評估為什麼這麼久都不出來？他說因為平常有普通的紙菸業者從中作梗，希望愈慢愈好。因為加熱菸的評估如果出來，一部分合格、一部分不合格，合格的部分就可以開始正式進入市場嘛！他們認為這個評估起來對紙菸業者會有影響，你有沒有聽過這樣的傳聞啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然沒有。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在就是要告訴你，有這樣傳聞的原因就是因為你事實上該做的事情沒有好好做嘛！如果你今天6個月評估出來，該過的給過，不該過的不過，就不會有這樣的傳言了。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：選舉完到現在都已經3個月了，你也不給一個答案，在我來看這就是行政懈怠，我希望你在行政院院會也好，或是在同僚之間也好，應該要表達意見啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為這事關到我們國家的稅收一直不停在流失。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長對於我這樣的看法，你同不同意？"],["莊部長翠雲：我認同，因為要趕快有一個結果，不管是通過或者是不通過，在我們海關這邊處理也可以有一個準據來做。"],["吳委員秉叡：而且那個準據不是只有菸本身，還有那些加熱菸的工具等等，這些東西都一直在那邊延宕。事實上，我從以前就一直跟你們講，你去跟人家扣那個加熱器，是沒有法理依據的！但現在卻還是一直這樣在幹，這個事情拖下去對財政部來講是非常不利的。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：無論從哪個角度來講都非常不利，我希望你還是能夠本於你的職責，該講的時候還是要講。"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：再來就是要跟你請教興辦社會住宅，現在在全國境內，跟我們國有財產署相關的業務方面進度如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：在社會住宅的部分，其實蓋社會住宅最主要的就是要土地，所有國有土地已經提供的有81公頃，這是以各種方式，不管是撥用、出租、或捐贈等等，還有另外也保留了114公頃提供他們去做規劃。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺中市政府因為前一陣子要去標售它的抵費地，也就是它的區段徵收或是市地重劃的抵費地，然後它一口氣要標那麼多，底價又很高，引起很多爭議。其中內政部曾經表達，希望可以用開發的價格賣給內政部讓它來蓋國宅，關於這樣的主張，部長你贊成嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分，因為抵費地不管是市地重劃或是區段徵收，有一些成本必須回收，至於除此之外，可以保留更多的土地來做社會住宅，我想這是一個很好的方向。"],["吳委員秉叡：不是，很好的方向是對，但是中央政府就要花錢了，而且是滿大筆的錢，要直接給地方政府，只是地方政府不能賺差價，開發大家都瞭解，會有開發的成本嘛！要照開發成本移轉給中央，然後中央來蓋社會住宅。","其實社會住宅蓋在地方就是地方的人在用，真的不需要去賺那個差價，我現在要問你的是，這樣子的話，中央要增加滿多支出喔！所以中央如果增加這一筆支出，你剛剛講的要多還債，這個就變成稍微會有困難、會有影響。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：這一點你的看法如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個部分也許可以透過市地重劃條例或是有關區段徵收的土地徵收法，看看裡面有沒有相關的規範把它放進去。"],["吳委員秉叡：也就是說，在區段徵收的法律，或是在市地重劃的法律裡面，規定你的抵費地要有一定的比例，要來做社會住宅的興建？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，當作公共設施的一個，內政部已經在研議了。"],["吳委員秉叡：我剛剛講的是臺中，我現在要請教我們新北市呢？我們新北市地方政府，依我的瞭解它對興建社會住宅不是很有興趣，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們的戶數，我們可能要再看一下，但是就國有土地來說，我們是全面配合提供的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道，我現在就是在問地方的情形嘛！"],["曾署長國基：跟委員報告，新北市的部分，其實中央在做社宅，不管是已經完成、在規劃中，還是在興建中的部分，一共大概是41處左右，未來會有所謂1萬6,437戶。"],["吳委員秉叡：那市政府的部分有多少戶？"],["曾署長國基：市政府的部分，如果我沒有記錯的話，好像也不到1萬戶。"],["吳委員秉叡：不到1萬戶，還是當初世大運，林口選手村移撥的部分就占了三千多戶了。"],["曾署長國基：對，那個……"],["吳委員秉叡：所以有沒有辦法做內部溝通？既然這是國家大家共同的方向，都在講居住正義嘛！講居住正義，如果你提供的社會住宅夠多，當然就可以抒解一部分的壓力，這部分是不是要做內部溝通，請新北市政府要加強努力？"],["曾署長國基：報告委員，事實上住都中心一直有跟市政府在做整體性的協調，因為最後有很多建照的申請，還是要地方政府配合。我想中央跟地方共同來做社宅是責無旁貸的。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，理想是很好，但問題是，事實上它如果沒有興趣的話，你要想辦法迂迴地跟它拜託啊！"],["曾署長國基：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：加油喔！你們做的政策都是很重要的，加油！"],["曾署長國基：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢。接著我們休息10分鐘。","休息10分鐘。","休息（11時9分）","繼續開會（11時19分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王世堅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","李坤城","黃珊珊","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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政院會也好或是在同僚之間也好應該要跟他表達意見因為這事關到我們國家的稅收一直不停在流失不知道我這樣的看法你同不同意我認同因為要趕快有一個結果不管是通過或是不通過那在我們海關這邊處理也可以有一個準據來做"},{"start":403.447,"end":417.082,"text":"而且那個準據不是只有菸的本身還有那些加熱菸的工具等等這些東西都一直在那邊延宕事實上我從以前一直跟你們講你去給人家扣那個加熱器沒有法理依據的但是現在就是還是這樣在幹"},{"start":419.879,"end":446.152,"text":"這事情拖下去對財政部來講是非常不利的我希望你還是能夠本於你的職責該講的時候還是要講再來就是要跟你請教這個新辦社會住宅現在在全國的境內跟我們國產署相關的業務方面進度如何呢在社會住宅的部分其實幹社會住宅最主要的就是要土地"},{"start":447.541,"end":474.631,"text":"國有土地已經提供了有81公頃的土地以各種方式不管是撥用出租或捐贈等等還有另外也保留的114公頃提供他們去做規劃台中市政府因為前一陣子要去飆售他的那個底廢地他的區段證書或是都市市地重劃的底廢地然後他一口氣要飆那麼多然後底價又很高引起很多的爭議"},{"start":475.771,"end":497.546,"text":"那其中內政部曾經表達說希望可以用開發的價格賣給內政部讓他來蓋國宅關於這樣的主張部長你贊成嗎我想這個部分因為底廢地他不管是試地重劃或是區段徵收他有一些必須成本的回收那至於除此之外可以保留更多的土地來做社會主宅我想這是一個很好的方向"},{"start":498.046,"end":515.947,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":515.947,"end":535.828,"text":"吳秉叡"},{"start":535.828,"end":536.869,"text":"那我現在要請教我剛剛講的是台中那我們新北市呢?"},{"start":565.9,"end":566.74,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":581.441,"end":594.755,"text":"跟委員報告新北市的部分其實中央在做設載不管已經完成或規劃中的或興建中的部分一共大概是有41處左右那未來將會有所謂16437戶"},{"start":602.751,"end":627.387,"text":"那市政府的部分多少戶市政府的部分我如果我沒有記錯好像也不到一萬戶了那個不到一萬戶還是當初四大運林口選手村一波的部分就佔了三千多戶了所以有沒有辦法做內部的溝通請新北市政府既然這是國家大家共同的方向講居住正義嘛居住正義如果你社會住宅提供的有夠多"},{"start":628.388,"end":649.066,"text":"那當然可以縮減一部分的壓力那這一部分是不是內部溝通請市政府要加強努力報告委員這個部分事實上住都中心一直有跟市政府在做一個整體性的協調因為最後有很多的建造的申請還是要地方政府配合我想中央跟地方共同來做涉宰這是責務旁貸的"},{"start":650.247,"end":650.267,"text":"謝謝吳秉叡的質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}