{"error":false,"id":["150136"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150136,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150136","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T11:14:09+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T11:24:49+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:40","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192f620c143cc43ac6a1a6f552d80ae54d4f8ba9b0039caa7a699b21507dc6a303f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:14:09 - 11:24:49","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽章法修正草案」案。\n【第一案如經院會復議，則不予審查。】\n【本日僅進行詢答】\n【3月18日、20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（11時14分）謝謝主席。請唐鳳部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["唐部長鳳：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長好。部長你早上辛苦了，今天你回答很多委員的詢問，在我的感覺上，是教學成分大過於質詢。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：也就是說大家都在問這是什麼「碗糕」，所以你很認真的針對每一個委員的問題解釋。我為什麼會提這個？你想想看，立法委員都有那麼多問題問你電子簽章是什麼，那接下來面對民眾，數位部怎麼去想一個更簡單的語言來告訴大家電子簽章是什麼？"],["唐部長鳳：沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：其實對我而言很簡單，剛剛許智傑委員已經提了，對我來講就是電子的印鑑證明。"],["唐部長鳳：對啊！"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你們應該朝這個方向去讓大家知道，你可以簽名、可以蓋印章，都可以做，但是就是有一些單位需要印鑑證明，以前印鑑證明的那一顆印章，像我因為很少使用，經常忘記印鑑證明是哪一顆印章，所以每次要印鑑證明，都要請我太太把我的一堆印章拿去那個單位一顆一顆蓋，看哪一顆才是我的印鑑。"],["唐部長鳳：瞭解。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以邏輯上你應該清楚告訴大家，數位部未來要跟民眾宣導、溝通的這個環節，你想在立法院你都這麼辛苦了，面對民眾你會比這裡辛苦100倍，所以你要告訴大家，這張卡片就是電子的印鑑證明。"],["唐部長鳳：謝謝，非常好的提醒，我們一定請同仁這樣辦理。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，對，這是第一個。第二個，今天早上不分朝野、不分藍綠的每一位委員對於3年都很有意見，我也提了我的版本，其實我的版本也是1年，為什麼我的版本是1年？我當然知道這3年的時間，第一，你要更新所有的設備，因為如果設備不對等，其實也沒有用，無法發揮作用……"],["唐部長鳳：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以第一個是設備，第二個，我們要盤點所有的法律，因為過去沒有寫到電子簽章的，現在通通要把它加上去，所以我的辦公室也開始在盤點，到底有哪些法要修法……"],["唐部長鳳：是，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以你需要3年，那為什麼我明明知道這個，還是要講1年？因為第一個，我覺得立法院要當數發部的後盾，我如果改為1年，每一個單位的腎上腺素才會噴發，否則你們去跟人家溝通，人家愛理不理，地方政府更難！在這個邏輯底下，我提1年的目的，其實就是讓中央各單位、甚至地方政府知道這個是朝野各政黨立委都希望趕快加速的政策。我們當然希望加速，環保、無紙化、效率提升等等，這都是一回事，但對我們來講更重要的是民眾希望嚴懲臺灣的這些詐騙，希望這種網路詐騙能夠快速降低……"],["唐部長鳳：特別是假冒名人的廣告。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，對，所以上一次質詢時我也問過你這個問題，我支持電子簽章，其實背後很重要的因素，除了剛剛講的這些之外，最迫切的、國家最迫切需要解決的問題，其實就是詐騙的問題。"],["唐部長鳳：完全、完全正確，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果沒有把基礎工作、電子簽章先普及化及建構好，後面我們要抓壞人是很困難的，難度就很高。"],["唐部長鳳：要在源頭處理。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，所以我支持的原因在這個地方，可是當我看到3年時間，我個人是很有意見，要抓詐騙結果你跟民眾說：對，我現在在認真修法，也通過了，3年以後一定可以讓詐騙大幅降低！說這個，我看民眾是聽不下去！"],["唐部長鳳：我們對平臺的要求不受這3年的影響，我們是立刻就要求了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，對，我知道，這個過了之後，你開始修平臺，但是這裡面或許會有很多細微的問題產生，你現在開始的第一招是先管平臺，其實平臺跟這個也不見得有……這是間接關係，你還是要在其他法規上規範平臺必須要有電子簽章……"],["唐部長鳳：廣告平臺的各種責任。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，對，簡單講，過去你要來我這裡、要進場，要拿國民身分證，假設啦！現在你就給他一個叫做電子簽章，等同這樣的概念。"],["唐部長鳳：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：但這個是你先大方向的規範電子平臺，讓詐騙的數可以一定程度下降，但是未來還是有很多型態，我隨便舉例，譬如我在臉書發一則訊息說我在賣杯子，我沒有下廣告也沒有推銷，什麼都沒有，你怎麼知道這個是不是詐騙？一樣嘛！他也沒有公司，他是自然人，他就在個人的臉書上，但這個個人有可能是假的……"],["唐部長鳳：不過他這樣觸及到的人就沒有下廣告那麼多了。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，對，所以我們先抓大，我同意，但我的意思是說，當你建構得越完整、各單位配合得越好，大家使用的習慣……因為這跟習慣有關嘛！剛剛說大家為什麼不配合，譬如剛剛講花蓮縣政府不配合，是因為花蓮縣政府還不知道未來這件事情的重要性，當每一個縣市的市民、縣民都很方便的可以做這個事情的時候，只有花蓮還要拿印鑑在那裡蓋、在那裡檢查，大家就開始罵了嘛！民眾就自然而然的……這時候就是大家的力量，因為現在此刻談這個，沒有人知道這件事情對每一個人生活的方便性、效率的提升嘛！所以每個人覺得現在為什麼要配合你，可是當使用者到一個程度、超過了一個臨界點，過了之後大家就開始覺得這個很方便、這個最好、這個很好。"],["唐部長鳳：沒錯，委員講得太好了，因為這是雙方嘛！我們是雙方合意，所以只要有一方一直覺得對方為什麼還不提供數位簽章……"],["蔡委員其昌：是嘛！所以你要達到那個點，就是普及的速度要快。"],["唐部長鳳：是的，沒錯。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以我看到3年，我也不大能夠接受，原因在這裡。"],["唐部長鳳：理解。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以有很多介面要處理。","第三個問題，剛剛有提到有一些要排除，我剛剛看到張法官有來，麻煩你上臺一下，我知道最高行政法院現在就啟用主文簡訊email通知服務，意思就是判決馬上通知讓當事人知道。"],["張法官宇葭：跟委員報告，這個是主文公告的部分，主文公告其實是沒有要電……那個只是我們公告的方式。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，那它有排除電子簽章嗎？"],["張法官宇葭：主文公告不是經過我們的電子輸送系統，所以這個可能不是，這個跟電子簽章的部分可能沒有關係。"],["蔡委員其昌：因為我不知道嘛！它項目裡面只提到司法程序要排除，請問一下這算是司法程序嗎？通知當事人他的判決狀況，然後判決主文在網站上公告，這個算是司法程序的排除嗎？"],["張法官宇葭：主文公告是司法程序的一環沒有錯，但是主文公告本身沒有要……它是我們的公告，它不是……"],["蔡委員其昌：法官，我舉一個例子，我收到一個簡訊說我的判決文已經出來，請連結這個網站，它發簡訊給我連結，但我點進去的網站是假的。"],["張法官宇葭：跟委員報告，我們的主文簡訊通知其實是他們推的一個便民服務。"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道、我知道，我都接受，我都同意。"],["張法官宇葭：照正式的公告方式是我們張貼網站或是法院的公告欄，不會去主動傳這個簡訊給當事人。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，可是我看你們的新聞稿，「秒知訴訟終結，最高行政法院啟用主文簡訊、email通知服務新聞稿」，內容就是告訴大家，它的判決主文請至司法院主文公告網站查詢，對不對？"],["張法官宇葭：跟委員報告，這個簡訊通知其實是他們的一種便民服務……"],["蔡委員其昌：我瞭解。"],["張法官宇葭：應該不是在司法程序裡面。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以它未來不可以被排除？"],["張法官宇葭：這個部分我們再跟最高行政法院或是內部再研議，但是其實這個應該不是我們認知的傳統司法程序。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，但是這條修法裡面就直接把司法訴訟程序給排除掉了，所以未來司法院在發這一則簡訊……因為我講的是一個詐騙型態，就是我知道你們都在訴訟，我發簡訊給你，我告訴你說你的主文判決已經公告了，然後叫你連結這個網站，我也知道今天要判決、我也知道這幾天可能要判決，所以我收到這個就點進去那個假的釣魚網站，因為你們被排除了嘛！所以這樣的一個網站沒有電子簽章的認證，就是……"],["唐部長鳳：我們111簡訊平臺，其實任何能用供應契約的機關都可以來使用，不一定要是電子簽章法的適用機關。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以……"],["張法官宇葭：我補充一下，我們目前訴訟行為透過電子的方式為之，原則上是我們司法院有個訴訟平臺，而簡訊的通知是便民服務，其實不在司法程序……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒關係，法官，其實只是提供你們瞭解，我們在修法裡面要有一條法令叫做把司法程序排除，這一句話是不是會排除了……因為檢察官詐騙、法官詐騙，這個也是屬於詐騙型態裡面的重頭戲啊！"],["張法官宇葭：對，這個是我們要注意到的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，所以我們在防堵詐騙一定要包得密一點啦！不要因為你們的排除，排除完之後再有問題。"],["張法官宇葭：這個我們會檢視我們相關的……"],["蔡委員其昌：檢視一下，好不好？"],["張法官宇葭：好，謝謝委員。"],["蔡委員其昌：謝謝。"],["唐部長鳳：我們會全力配合，謝謝。"],["主席：好，蔡委員發言完畢。","現在請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":382,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-4","speakers":["李昆澤","葛如鈞","林國成","林沛祥","陳素月","何欣純","廖先翔","徐富癸","林俊憲","邱若華","游顥","許智傑","蔡其昌","謝衣鳯","魯明哲","洪孟楷","陳冠廷","張啓楷","黃健豪"],"page_start":331,"meetingDate":["2024-03-20"],"gazette_id":"1131601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131601_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「電子簽章法修正草案」案；二、審查委員葛如鈞等22人擬具「電子簽\n章法修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1131601_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.88221875,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.379718750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.746593750000002,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.219093750000003,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.337218750000002,"end":11.438468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.657218750000002,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.21409375,"end":17.36159375},{"speake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印鑑證明那一顆印章像我因為很少使用我已經忘記我的印鑑證明是哪一顆印章了所以我每一次要印鑑證明我都要請我太太把我的印章拿一堆去那一個單位一顆一顆蓋看哪一顆是我的印鑑了解"},{"start":97.403,"end":109.602,"text":"那所以邏輯你就告訴大家說你應該很清楚說未來要再宣導再跟民眾溝通這一個環節你想在立法院你都這麼辛苦了那民眾你會比這裡辛苦一百倍所以你要告訴大家"},{"start":111.231,"end":128.923,"text":"這張卡片就是電子的硬件證明謝謝非常好的提醒我們一定就請同仁這樣來辦理好這是第一個第二個大家對於我看一下今天早上每一個草野不分藍綠大家對於3年都很有意見"},{"start":130.117,"end":151.598,"text":"我也提了我的版本其實我的版本也是一年好那為什麼我的版本是一年因為三年這個時間我當然知道嘛這個第一個你要更新所有的設備因為如果我們設備不對等其實沒有用無法發揮它的作用所以第一個是設備第二個我們要盤點所有的法律"},{"start":152.279,"end":177.634,"text":"因為過去沒有寫到電子簽章現在通通把它加上去所以我的辦公室也開始在盤點到底有哪些法要修法好 所以你需要3年那為什麼我明明知道這個我還是要講一年是因為第一個我覺得大家要當訴立法院要當訴發佈的後盾我如果改一年齁每一個單位加以那個腎上腺素才會噴發啦"},{"start":180.049,"end":191.307,"text":"否則你們去跟人家溝通愛理不理地方政府你更難所以在這個邏輯底下我提一年的目的其實就是讓讓中央各單位"},{"start":192.745,"end":210.424,"text":"甚至地方政府要很知道這個是草野各政黨立委都希望趕快加速那我希望加速當然環保、無止化、效率的提升這當然是一件事但對我們來講更重要的是民眾希望來嚴懲希望台灣的這些詐騙"},{"start":214.028,"end":242.106,"text":"希望台灣的這種網路這種詐騙能夠快速降低特別是假冒名的管道對對對所以上一次我已經上一次的質詢我也問過你這個問題所以我支持電子簽章其實背後很重要的因素當然這些都是但是迫切在國家迫切需要解決的問題其實就是這個詐騙的問題完全完全正確謝謝所以沒有先把基礎工作電子簽章先把它普及化做建構好"},{"start":243.317,"end":246.618,"text":"我個人就很有意見。我現在在認證修法也過了3年以後我一定可以幫他大幅降低。"},{"start":264.265,"end":288.663,"text":"觀眾說這些我看民眾是聽不到下去我們對平台的要求不受這個三年影響你過了這個之後你開始修平台但是這裡面會有很多細微的問題或許也會產生因為你現在開始第一招你先管平台管平台其實跟這個也不見得有這是間接關係你還是要在其他的法規上規範平台必須要有電子簽章簡單講你來我這裡"},{"start":292.525,"end":315.05,"text":"你要進場要拿國民身份證以前假設現在你就給他一個叫做電子簽章等同這樣的概念但是這個是你先大方向的把規範電子平台讓詐騙的數可以一定程度的下降但是未來還是有很多的形態我隨便舉例比如說我在臉書發一則訊息說我在賣杯子"},{"start":320.467,"end":334.215,"text":"我也沒有下廣告啊我也沒有推沒什麼都沒有我就在我然後你怎麼知道這個是不是詐騙一樣嗎可是他們他還沒有公司啊他也是自然人啊因為他就在個人的臉書上那這個個人有可能是假的"},{"start":341.45,"end":360.316,"text":"但是我的意思是說當你建構得越完整各單位配合得越好大家使用的習慣因為這跟習慣有關嘛剛剛大家為什麼不配合譬如說剛剛講花蓮縣政府不配合是因為花蓮縣政府還不知道未來這件事情的重要性當每一個縣市的"},{"start":361.815,"end":386.07,"text":"市民、縣民都很方便的可以做這個事情的時候只有花蓮還要拿硬件在那裡等、在那裡檢查大家就開始罵了嘛民眾就自然而然這時候就是大家的力量因為現在此刻談這個沒有人知道這件事情對每一個人的生活的方便性嘛效率的提升嘛所以每個人不覺得現在為什麼我要配合你可是當你"},{"start":386.943,"end":414.462,"text":"你使用者到一個程度超過了一個臨界點過了之後大家就開始覺得這個很方便,這個最好,這個很好沒錯,委員講得太好了因為這是雙方嘛,我們是雙方合一所以只要有一方一直覺得說對方為什麼還不提供數位簽章所以你要達到那個點就是普及的速度要快嘛所以三年為什麼我說我看到三年我也不太能夠接受原因在這裡所以有很多要介面要處理那第三個問題"},{"start":416.332,"end":444.006,"text":"剛剛有提到說那個叫做有一些要排除啦比如說我剛剛看到那個那個張法官有來嘛張法官可以我麻煩你上台一下齁這個我知道那個像最高行政法院齁他們現在就啟用那個叫做主文簡訊e-mail通知服務意思就是說判決啊判決馬上讓通知當事人知道"},{"start":445.678,"end":446.538,"text":"對,但他有排除電子簽章嗎?"},{"start":457.405,"end":480.219,"text":"主文公告不是經過我們這個電子訴訟系統所以可能不是這個跟電子簽章．我不知道嘛他項目裡面只提到說司法程序要排除是是請問一下這是算司法程序嗎通知當事人說你的判決狀況然後判決主文我在網站上公告這個算是司法程序的排除嗎"},{"start":481.292,"end":499.982,"text":"欸主文公告是司法程序的一環沒有錯但是主文公告本身他沒有要他是我們公告他不是我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我我"},{"start":501.477,"end":528.324,"text":"跟委員報告我們這個主文這個簡訊通知其實是他們推的一個便民服務我知道我知道我都接受照正式的公告方式是我們張貼網站跟這個我們或是法院的公告欄不會去主動傳這個簡訊給當事人可是我看你們的新聞稿秒資啊秒資訴訟終結嘛最高行政法院啟用主文簡訊email通知服務新聞稿那內容就告訴大家說"},{"start":529.324,"end":540.915,"text":"你的判決主文請至司法院主文公告網站查詢所以各位知道這個簡訊通知其實是他們的一種辨明服務應該不是在司法程序裡頭對對對所以他不可以被排除未來"},{"start":542.395,"end":567.471,"text":"這個部分我們在跟這個最高行政法院或是內部在演繹但是其實這個應該不是我們認知傳統的司法程序但是法律裡面直接齁這條修法裡面直接把司法訴訟程序就給他排除掉了所以未來司法院在發這一則簡訊因為我講的是一個詐騙型態嘛就是說我知道你們都在訴訟我發簡訊給你我告訴你說你的主文判決已經公告了"},{"start":568.325,"end":592.327,"text":"然後呢叫你連結這網站我也知道今天要判決啊我也知道這幾天可能要判決我收到這個文我就點進去那個假的釣魚的假的網站對那因為你們被排除了嘛所以這一個這樣的一個網站的沒有電子簽章的認證就我們111簡訊平台其實任何能用供應契約的機關都可以來使用不一定要電子簽章法的使用機關"},{"start":593.388,"end":599.15,"text":"我只是提供你們說司法院我們在修法裡面要一條法令叫做把司法程序排除這一句話他是不是會排除了因為檢察官詐騙法官詐騙"},{"start":621.578,"end":621.678,"text":" ﹖蔡其昌﹖"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}