{"error":false,"id":["150144"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150144,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150144","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T11:40:59+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T11:47:58+08:00","影片長度":"00:06:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192e4bbcc18d2240173ed861a3b97380652f8ba9b0039caa7a6d690d3a913060f315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:40:59 - 11:47:58","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議，有關財政部主管預算凍結書面報告案45案。[如經院會復議，則不予處理或審查]\n【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":980,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時41分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們莊部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有賦稅署的宋署長和高雄國稅局的翁局長。"],["主席：好，有點名到的請上來。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：局長、署長，好久不見了。剛剛很開心，聽到李彥秀委員也關心小規模營業人，但是接下來我怕有所誤會，先聲明，李委員關心的是包括起徵點跟開立統一發票的門檻，那我待會不提開立統一發票門檻，我只談起徵點，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們來看一下，先問一下，考你一題，為什麼將近40年前訂的小店優惠稅率要優惠？根據當年加值型及非加值型營業稅法第十三條，小規模營業人稅率訂為百分之一，為什麼是百分之一？"],["莊部長翠雲：比較低啊！對啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：比較低？總是有個依據吧！營業稅是5%，為什麼要訂1%？"],["莊部長翠雲：為什麼？"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要直接跟你講答案了，因為是不按進銷差額計稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼？因為它是小規模，可能拿不到進項發票，那你用它的出項來計算會有困難，所以改按銷售總額，在1985年之前，銷售總額的稅率是0.6%，現在調為1%，我這樣說，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員整理得非常清楚。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，來，我們來看一下，那原理要講給大家都懂，為什麼呢？因為如果是普通店家，它有開發票，但是它的銷貨發票是50萬元，可能的進項發票是46萬元，交易對象尤其像網購，大概進、銷項都有發票，5%的營業稅大概只要交2,000塊營業稅；但是小店的營業額可能高達快20萬，交易對象可能是菜市場的、做自助餐的、做麵攤的，就算做得蠻成功的，進項卻沒有發票，所以要用1%，這樣營業稅2,000塊，是不是這個意思？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，小店家的部分也有可以扣的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，但是它有成本嘛！所以我說假設是比較簡化來講，因為它拿不到進項發票，所以就算它1%，是不是這樣？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，小店家的部分如果拿到發票，進項稅額的10%是可以扣抵的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說如果都拿不到的話啦！"],["宋署長秀玲：如果拿不到當然就沒辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還是1%嘛，對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：對，那就沒辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們照銷售額算1%，這1%的原因是來自於它大多拿不到進項發票，成本難以估算，所以就不能說銷售額20萬通通用20萬來扣營業稅，是不是這樣？因為它沒有進項可以抵嘛！是這樣沒有錯吧？","好，我們往下看，過去我在院會的時候提出希望小店降稅減負擔，那時候我希望小規模營業人的標準從20萬提高50萬，起徵點從8萬提高到20萬，起徵點的原因剛剛講的有店租、員工薪水、店主成本，請問一下後來調整當時的起徵點為什麼是8萬？8萬怎麼來的？"],["宋署長秀玲：當時我們也是考量到有一定物價的調升，所以我們去做調整。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是的，很好。我問過你們，你們有回函，今年年初你們回函給我了，財政部亦指出成本已有上漲，剛講到計算的方式，店租、員工薪水、店主成本都有成長，按照你們提供的數字，我大概推估，貨物類的可能8萬會調到14萬，勞務類的可能從4萬調到7萬，有沒有這個可能？成本提高，起徵點應該提高，免稅起徵點也應該提高，是不是這樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的，我們正在估算當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我還是希望調到20萬，你們去估算，我的目標是20萬，往下看。","但是，以前有一家西餐廳，小時候我10歲的時候，那時候它的月營業額是30萬，可以請10個員工，交易對象那時候可以拿到發票，隨著物價波動，現在它的營業額可能做到80萬，因為牛排漲價了，員工人數因為勞工薪水高了，現在只請7個人，交易對象還是有發票，所以它沒有問題。但是以前的小麵攤、自助餐，可能當年的營業額是15萬，員工只請得起3個人，交易對象是菜市場的攤販，它沒有辦法拿到進項發票，現在它的營業額提高了，因為自助餐也漲價了，員工還是3人，交易對象有因此而變得有發票嗎？你瞭解行業別吧！小店雖然規模成長，但是它的交易對象還是那些落在你們認為免開統一發票的對象，同不同意？會不會有這個情況？"],["莊部長翠雲：有可能。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們現在看，所以小規模營業人若要承擔5%的營業稅率，我們看一下小店本質不變，交易對象仍然是免開發票的小店，人手還是有限，請問小店的優惠門檻1%要不要放寬？我直接告訴你，我的主張要放寬，為什麼？因為隨著時間的成長，西餐廳還是西餐廳，它的交易對象有發票，它還是有發票；它過去開發票，現在還是開發票。現在小規模營業人、自助餐、麵攤，可能做大一點了，營業額可能超過20萬了，要開發票了，但是交易對象還是那些沒有開發票的菜市場攤販，那你現在要用5%來課稅，它拿不到進項發票，是不是可以考慮一下讓這些50萬以下、20萬以上，性質還是屬於小規模營業人的對象，免稅起徵點20萬不用稅？為什麼不用稅？因為現在未達20萬的微型企業，按照你們2022年的估算，營業稅總額5,444億，小規模營業人只貢獻了34.7億，只占了0.64%，稅損有限，所以20萬以下起徵點免課營業稅；20萬到50萬者本質規模還是小店家，開不開發票你們決定嘛！我沒有跟你爭議發票，縱使要它開銷項發票，它不見得拿得到進項發票，所以根據剛剛我第一題的原理，你還是用1%的優惠稅率，有條件的1%稅率可以考慮嗎？可以嗎？部長，我這樣講有沒有道理？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員整理得很詳細，但是也講得很快，我想我們回去再對於委員這些資料……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我講得太快了？我至少不像一開始開場白吧！「各位委員先進……」沒有講那麼快，我講得很清楚。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，很清楚，我們回去再研議。"],["鍾委員佳濱：什麼時候可以給我答案？我昨天也在院會的時候問過院長啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：有、有、有，對、對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你可以考慮多久？1個月？"],["莊部長翠雲：1個月好嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，1個月，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鍾佳濱委員質詢。","接著我們請黃國昌委員質詢。我這樣講有沒有快？"]],"agenda":{"page_end":278,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-4","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","賴士葆","賴惠員","王世堅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","顏寬恒","李坤城","黃珊珊","吳秉叡","陳玉珍","李彥秀","鍾佳濱","黃國昌","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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有點名到請上來委員好"},{"start":24.752,"end":40.138,"text":"議長、署長好久不見了那麼剛剛的很開心聽到李燕秀委員關心小規模營業人但是我接下來我怕有所誤會先聲明李委員關心的是包括起徵點跟開立統一發票的門檻那我待會不提開立統一發票門檻我只談起徵點可以嗎"},{"start":42.139,"end":57.373,"text":"好 那我們來看一下齁先問一下考你一題齁為什麼40年前江青生以前訂的小店的優惠稅率會比較優惠根據當年的價值型及非價值型營業稅法第3條小規模的營業人稅率定為1%為什麼是1%要低啊對啊比較低總是有個依據吧營業稅是5%為什麼要定1%為什麼"},{"start":67.433,"end":87.328,"text":"因為他在不按競銷項差額計稅為什麼因為他是小規模他可能拿不到競銷發票那你用他的出項來計他會有困難所以呢他改按銷售總額在1985年之前銷售總額的稅率是0.6現在調了1%我這樣說對不對"},{"start":91.698,"end":119.343,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":119.463,"end":142.859,"text":"他就算做得蠻成功的他的鏡像沒有發票所以我們要用一趴這樣就有兩千塊是不是這個意思小店家的部分也有可以扣的我知道但是他有成本所以我是假設比較簡化來講因為他拿不到鏡像發票所以就把它裝一趴是不是這樣報告委員小店家的部分他如果拿到發票鏡像需要的百分之十可以扣如果他都拿不到的話"},{"start":143.66,"end":161.852,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":162.281,"end":184.28,"text":"好來我們往下看過去呢我在院會的時候提出來希望小店降稅減負擔那時候我希望小規模營業人的標準從20萬提高到50萬那起徵年從8萬提高到20萬起徵的原因剛講的他有店租他有員工薪水他有店主的成本那請問一下為什麼後來調整當時的起徵年為什麼是8萬為什麼是8萬起徵年為什麼8萬8萬怎麼來的你說怎樣"},{"start":191.529,"end":220.169,"text":"當時我們也是考量到有一定的物價的挑戰是的很好我問過你們你們有回函來你看我今年你們年初回函給我了財政部一指出成本已有上漲剛講到的我們的計算的方式電租員工薪水電煮成本都有成長按照你們提供給我的數字我大概推估貨物類的可能8萬會調到14萬勞務類的可能從4萬調到7萬有沒有這個可能成本提高起徵也應該提高免稅的起徵也應該提高是不是這樣"},{"start":220.677,"end":221.017,"text":"但是但是來啦"},{"start":231.007,"end":252.907,"text":"以前一家西餐廳我小時候10歲的時候我們那時候他的月營業額是30萬他可以請10個員工他的交易對象那時候可以拿到發票現在他的營業額隨著物價波動他現在營業額可能說80萬因為牛排漲價了他的員工人數因為勞工薪水高了他現在只請7個人交易對象還是有發票所以他沒有問題"},{"start":254.068,"end":273.425,"text":"但是以前的小麵攤自助餐他可能當年的營業額是15萬他的員工只請了起3個人他的交易對象是菜市場的攤販他沒有辦法拿到競相發票他沒有現在呢他的營業額提高了因為自助餐也漲價了嘛員工還是3人交易對象有因此而變得有發票嗎"},{"start":274.724,"end":285.151,"text":"你還想行業別吧小店他雖然規模成長但是要交易對象還是那些若在你們認為免開統一發表對象同不同意會不會有這個情況"},{"start":288.957,"end":303.276,"text":"所以小規模的營業人如果要承擔5%的營業稅率我們看一下他的小店的本質不變他的交易對象仍然是免開發票的小店他的人手還是有限請問小店的優惠門檻1%的門檻要不要放寬"},{"start":306.291,"end":326.505,"text":"我直接告訴你我的主張要放寬啦為什麼因為隨著時間的成長西餐廳還是西餐廳他的交易對象有發票他還是有發票他過去開發票現在是開發票現在呢小規模營業人自助餐麵攤他可能做大一點啊他的營業額可能超過20萬了他要開發票了"},{"start":328.846,"end":342.551,"text":"但是呢他的交易對象還是那些沒有開發票的菜市場的攤販那你現在要他用5%來瞌睡他拿不到競向發票是不是可以考慮一下讓這些50萬以下30萬20萬以上性質還是屬於小規模營業人的對象"},{"start":349.553,"end":361.056,"text":"起徵點免稅起徵點20萬這個不用稅為什麼這個不用稅因為現在未達20萬的微型企業按照你們2022年的估算你們的營業稅總額5444億小規模營業人只貢獻了34.7億只佔了0.64%稅損有限所以呢20萬以下的免課起徵點免課營業稅20萬到50萬的他的本質規模還是小店家"},{"start":376.957,"end":392.649,"text":"那開不開發票,你們決定嘛,我沒有跟你爭議發票。縱傳他開發票,開肖像發票,他不見得拿得到金像發票。所以根據剛剛我第一題的原理,你還是用1%的優惠稅率,有條件的1%的稅率,可以考慮嗎?"},{"start":395.56,"end":418.294,"text":"可以嗎?部長?我這樣講有沒有道理?委員整理得很詳細但也講得很快我想我們回去對於委員講得太快了我至少不像一開始開場牌吧我講得很清楚是很清楚我們回去再演繹什麼時候可以給我一個答案?我昨天也在院會的時候問過院長有有有那你可以考慮多久?一個月?一個月好嗎?好謝謝一個月好謝謝鍾佳濱委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}