{"error":false,"id":["150145"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150145,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150145","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T11:11:50+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T11:19:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:45","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192baa71b84d0f0a9c9753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a6340600c8c0d0f7405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:11:50 - 11:19:35","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":661,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時12分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士及先生。有請林部長和吳署長。"],["主席：林部長、吳署長有請。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好。部長當過基隆市市長，請問基隆河有沒有流過基隆市？"],["林部長右昌：基隆河有流過基隆市。"],["鍾委員佳濱：雖然我們知道主要是在臺北市。那高屏溪有沒有流過高雄或屏東？"],["林部長右昌：有，對……"],["鍾委員佳濱：在高雄跟屏東中間。"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：高屏溪上游是旗山溪跟屏東的荖濃溪，匯流之後叫做高屏溪，荖濃溪有隘寮溪匯合進來。今天我要談的，就是請教我們國土管理當中的河川部分。部長也看一下，河川有三線，在過去，中間的是行水區，會有一條水道治理計畫線，然後我們會劃一條河川區域線，也會畫一條用地範圍線。原則上這兩條線、綠的跟藍的會先劃，劃了之後就開始進行整治，整治目的有很大一部分就是蓋堤防，對不對？那請問，部長判斷一下，堤防蓋好，防汛道路可不可以行駛車輛？"],["林部長右昌：委員講的是治理線的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：防汛道路。"],["林部長右昌：防汛的道路……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，在底下，就是堤防外側的防汛道路，車輛可不可以開？"],["林部長右昌：它可以開，在容許……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看一下水利法第七十八條，我們知道河川內不能有這些事情，河川區內不可以填塞；不可以毀損建造物；不可以移動水閘門；不可以建造房屋；不能有妨礙水流之物，還有在指定通路外行駛車輛。那防汛道路可以行駛車輛嗎？可以嘛？"],["林部長右昌：它在一定的條件……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們叫水防道路。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那些工程車可以用。那請問它使用的用地是道路用地，還是河川用地？"],["林部長右昌：河川用地。"],["鍾委員佳濱：河川用地，說的很好。那河川用地可不可以做防汛道路以外的開闢道路、開闢公路？"],["林部長右昌：不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不行。那河川範圍內可不可以蓋房子？河川用地也不能蓋房子嘛？"],["林部長右昌：河川範圍內……"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，這裡寫了不能蓋房子，不能建造房屋嘛！"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好。我給你看一下我今天問的，這個圖就是隘寮溪，過去你看到隘寮溪的流域很寬廣，因為臺灣的地理特質，雨季的時候河面很寬，但是非雨季的時候河面就很窄，有一個洪氾區。所以你看到這裡面，是不是有看到一些道路在隘寮溪左邊，這邊有道路嘛！這就是目前河川的治理情況。經過多年的治理之後，圖中藍色部分是現在的行水區，然後我們畫了一個隘寮堤防，堤防蓋起來了，所以河川區域線本來畫得很寬，蓋了堤防之後其實就保護了堤防這邊的道路，所以這些道路本來是很窄的防汛道路，現在地方政府把它拓寬成2加2的四線道，請問部長，按照你剛剛的說法，河川區域線內用地是否仍為河川用地？"],["吳署長欣修：包含進去了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：河川區域線（圖中綠線）的右邊是不是屬於河川用地？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可是它把原來的道路拓寬為一般道路，這樣可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：依據水利法是要它同意。"],["林部長右昌：要水利主管機關同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那麼用地要不要辦理變更？因為它要行駛一般的車輛。我就常常在那邊開來開去，而且我開的不是水防的工程車喔！"],["林部長右昌：不過這一條因為我對屏東這邊不是很瞭解……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒關係，我只是說一般的情況。"],["林部長右昌：請問一下，這一條是計畫道路嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：是計畫道路。"],["林部長右昌：它是計畫道路嗎？"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是計畫道路，就是後來政府就把它開闢成四線道。署長講一下，你覺得這可不可以？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下，這的確是因為兩個法之間，因為兩個互為特別法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對！"],["吳署長欣修：所以在過程當中其實每次要開闢這種道路都要雙方協調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要協調，但你們是土地主管機關、是管理用地的機關……"],["吳署長欣修：對，但是雙方互為特別法，因為水利法，也要經過它同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那你們要不要要求它把用地變更為道路用地？"],["吳署長欣修：我說明一下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先問一下，要不要變更為道路用地？"],["吳署長欣修：它有區分啦！如果是都市計畫內，經過它同意，就照都市計畫，可是相對它要去檢討它的河川區域線……"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯。"],["吳署長欣修：它要去重新檢討。"],["鍾委員佳濱：檢討完了之後……"],["吳署長欣修：一種是不檢討、經過它同意可以做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那要不要變更為道路用地？"],["吳署長欣修：如果經過它同意，確定可以調整河川區域線，那就可以變更為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以在河川區域線還沒有調整之前，它還不能辦理用地變更嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：對，沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，很好。部長，這是我要的答案。","民眾怎麼想？你看這個河川區域線裡面有房子喔！"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：房子有一個部分落在河川區域線喔！區域線以外的可以改為建地，區域線以內的不能改為建地，既然不是建地，可不可以修繕？可不可以重新改建？"],["吳署長欣修：要經過它同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不只要它同意，還要經過河川區域線的檢討和用地的變更，是不是這樣子？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，部長，我的結論來了：你們主管全國國土的管理，其實我們知道經濟部水利署目前很積極地在檢討，因為這幾年治水預算不斷地加、不斷地加，很多堤防都蓋好了，堤防蓋好之後呢？其實原來劃定的河川區域線裡面可以在稍微地重新檢討之後，把它的用地性質做變更，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：當然可以，不過第一個是河川區域線和堤防之間的關係，從水利單位來講，他們會覺得那是一個緩衝區……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它也可以調。"],["林部長右昌：對，它當然可以調。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它也願意調。"],["林部長右昌：如果它願意調的話，地方政府提了，我們這邊沒什麼問題啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！就是要這句話！部長說的，如果河川治理機關願意調，你們願意配合辦理用地變更嘛！是不是？"],["林部長右昌：我們沒什麼問題啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好！我就是要部長這句話。請你們在檢討後也請水利單位檢討他們的河川區域線。我知道現在卡在3個單位啦！水利單位他們在檢討河川區域線的時候，因為路已經蓋好了，但是他們還沒有去變更，他們把河川區域線內縮之後，還要請地方政府依序提出用地變更，到了內政部這邊要審查同意，審查同意、回去之後才能把用地變更的使用狀況按照後來的規劃方式使用，對不對？所以這裡面其實內政部的關鍵角色沒有多少，發動權在河川治理單位，地方政府要提報，你們儘速審查，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那麼這個案子拜託，如果水利單位已經把河川區域線內縮了，地方政府也配合區域計畫法辦理用地變更申請，內政部可不可以承諾以最快的速度儘速辦理？"],["林部長右昌：水利單位只要提出來、他們主動提，我想我們就會來做。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只要他們主動提，你們就馬上配合辦理？"],["林部長右昌：對，我們來配合辦理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，就這一句話喔！以後我們屏東縣辦這件事情的時候，拜託內政部國土署趕快優先專案處理掉，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以哦？"],["林部長右昌：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，也謝謝部長、署長。","接下來我們請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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署長好部長當過基隆市市長請問一下基隆河有沒有留過基隆市基隆河有留過基隆市所以我們到主要是在臺北市那高屏溪有沒有留過高雄或屏東"},{"start":44.822,"end":60.651,"text":"在高雄和屏東中間高屏西的上游是旗山溪跟屏東的這邊的老農溪匯流之後叫做高屏溪老農溪有愛寮溪匯流進來好那今天我要談的呢就請教我們國土管理當中的河川的部分來我們請看一下業部長你也看一下啦齁"},{"start":61.751,"end":88.326,"text":"這個河川有三線在過去中間這個是行水區那會有一個水道治理計畫線然後我們會畫一個河川區域線也會畫一個用地範圍線那原則上這兩條線綠的跟藍的會先畫畫了之後就開始進行整治整治的目的有很大部分就是蓋堤防對不對那請問一下部長來判斷一下這個堤防蓋那個防汛道路可不可以行駛車輛"},{"start":92.611,"end":117.677,"text":"防汛道路防汛道路這堤防外側的防汛道路可不可以車輛可不可以開他可以開好我們來看一下法條下一頁水利法第78條我們知道河川內不能有這些事情河川區內不可以填設不可以毀損建造物不可以移動水閘門不可以建造房屋不能有妨礙水流還有在指定通路外行駛車輛那防汛道路可以行駛車輛嗎可以嗎"},{"start":122.144,"end":144.341,"text":"他在一定的一個條件下我們要讓水防道路啦讓一些工程車可以用那請問他的地使用用地是道路用地還是河川用地河川用地河川用地說得很好那河川用地可不可以做防汛道路以外的開闢道路開闢公路不行那河川範圍內可不可以蓋房子"},{"start":145.834,"end":146.014,"text":"國土計畫推行"},{"start":162.935,"end":191.776,"text":"雨季的時候呢河面很寬但是呢非雨季的時候呢河面就很窄它有個紅範區所以呢你看到這個裡面呢是不是有看到一些道路在愛寮溪的左邊這邊有道路嘛好那目前呢這些我們就是目前的河川的治理情況來看下一頁經過多年的治理之後啊你看到了齁在藍色的部分它是現在的行水然後呢我們畫了一個什麼愛寮堤防堤防蓋起來了"},{"start":192.822,"end":216.921,"text":"所以原來的河川區域線本來畫得很寬那現在蓋了堤防之後其實就保護了堤防這邊的道路所以這些道路現在本來是個很窄的防汛道路現在地方政府把它拓寬成2加2的四線道那請問部長按照你剛剛說法河川區域線內用地是不是還河川用地"},{"start":219.838,"end":221.419,"text":"我不是水房的工程車喔"},{"start":247.367,"end":251.75,"text":"這條是計畫道路嗎?是計畫道路。後來政府就把它開闢成四線道。署長講一下,你說這可不可以?"},{"start":264.303,"end":281.584,"text":"我說明一下這的確是因為兩個法之間因為兩個互為特別法所以在各個過程當中其實每次要開闢種都要雙方要協調要協調但是你們是土地主管機關是管理的這個用地的管理機關對因為雙方互為特別法那你要不要要求他要把用地變成道路用地我說明一下"},{"start":282.105,"end":310.521,"text":"我先問一下嘛,要不要道路要不要又變成用地他有區分啦齁,如果你是都市計畫內,經過他同意其實那個就叫都市計畫可是相對他要去檢討他的河川區域沒有錯他要去重新檢討那一種檢討是經過他同意對,那要不要把用地變成道路用地如果經過他同意他確定可以調整河川區域線對那就可以變回所以目前如果河川區域還沒調整之前他還不能辦理用地變更嗎對好很好部長這我要答案喔民眾怎麼想"},{"start":311.916,"end":328.397,"text":"這裡面的河川區域線你看到有房子喔房子有一部分落在河川區域線喔區域線以外的他可以改為建地區域線以外的他不能改為建地那不能建地可不可以修繕可不可以重新改建要經過他同意不只要他同意還要經過河川區域線的檢討他經過用地的變更"},{"start":330.579,"end":359.27,"text":"是不是這樣子?好,部長,那我的結論來了。好,來,我們往下看。其實啊,請部長,部長,請林部長,目前因為你們主管全國的國土的管理啦,其實目前我們知道經濟部水利署呢,他們很積極的在檢討,因為這幾年治水預算不斷的加,不斷的加,很多地方都蓋好了,地方蓋好了之後呢,其實啊,原來劃定的河川區域線裡面,其實可以稍微的重新檢討後,達到用盡性的做變更,可以嗎?"},{"start":363.433,"end":368.569,"text":"當然可以啦,不過第一個啦,委員可不可以跳到剛剛前面那個圖,這個圖"},{"start":371.791,"end":400.25,"text":"這個河川的區域線跟這個堤防之間的關係大概從水利單位他覺得那是一個緩衝區他也可以調對,他當然可以調他也願意調是,如果他願意調的話那個我們這邊地方政府提供這邊沒什麼問題部長說的,如果河川治理機關願意調你們願意配合辦理用地變更嗎?我們沒什麼問題很好,我就是要部長這句話因為呢,請你們去檢討後也請水利單位檢討他們的河川區域我現在知道這邊卡在三個單位啦"},{"start":401.09,"end":422.39,"text":"水利單位他們在檢討核酸缺陷的時候呢﹖因為路已經蓋好了﹖但是呢他們還沒有去變更﹖那他們把核酸缺陷內縮之後還要請地方政府依序提出用地變更﹖到了內政部這邊要審查同意﹖審查同意回序下之後才能搞用地變更的使用狀況按照後來的規方使用對不對﹖"},{"start":423.251,"end":441.682,"text":"所以這裡面其實內政部的關鍵角色沒有多少發動權在核酸自體單位地方政府提報你們什麼進速審查可以嗎那這個案子拜託如果說水利單位已經把核酸自體線內縮了地方政府也配合提供區域計畫法當中他辦理用地的變更申請內政部會承諾進速辦理"},{"start":444.824,"end":445.845,"text":"拜託內政部派到國土署,優先趕快專案處理掉好不好?"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}