{"error":false,"id":["150149"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150149,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150149","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-15-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[15],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T11:46:10+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T11:53:35+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f192b7fbd210f2120b5a753301a1aac7f2e9f8ba9b0039caa7a6ff111285ee9a4ebd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:46:10 - 11:53:35","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部部長及國土管理署署長、原住民族委員會主任委員就「國土計畫推動辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。【3月18日及20日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":861,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時46分）謝謝主席。我想請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，今天非常多的委員都很關心昨天在行政院門口有13個NGO團體一起來抗議，尤其抗議的就是剛剛講的內政部違反住宅法，把租金收費依照所謂的身分別取代了收入別，這個剛剛很多委員都問了。請問昨天內政部的新聞稿是你親自核定的嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我有看過。"],["黃委員珊珊：你有看過住盟給你回應的新聞稿嗎？"],["林部長右昌：這我們都看過。"],["黃委員珊珊：它說你們公然說謊、混淆視聽。"],["林部長右昌：我想並沒有，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：你沒有看過這個新聞稿？"],["林部長右昌：我看過。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以對我們來說，很簡單，昨天有非常多的NGO團體，一樣的，部長，我們都來自地方政府，住宅法的目標，就是希望能夠照顧所謂的弱勢家庭，甚至弱勢青年，對吧？"],["林部長右昌：是，這是其中的一部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以當立法院在住宅法第二十五條的部分，要求斟酌所得狀況、負擔能力還有市場行情，訂定分級收費原則，以及所有的附帶決議，其實都是在這個情況下來要求內政部來做。"],["林部長右昌：我們是有這樣一個方向……"],["黃委員珊珊：內政部做了2年的考卷，現在拿出一張不合格的答案……"],["林部長右昌：這個請容許稍後跟委員報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼會引起這麼大的問題，要不要說明一下？所以我現在的問題是，第一，臺北市政府、桃園市政府在你們的會議裡面，你們的說法是支持、認同並不反對，所以就等於是同意了，是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你做幾點說明，第一個，並不是用所謂的身分別去取代所得別。"],["黃委員珊珊：我剛剛都知道，所以我現在只問部長，如果你說我們尊重地方政府，尊重地方政府有共識，但是，是不是透過社會住宅興辦計畫，非自償性經費補助，如果地方政府實際收的租金，低於你的身分制的折數下限，他們要自行負擔財務缺口？"],["林部長右昌：應該不是，我們在新聞稿裡面其實有做說明，這個差額的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，你沒有用這個來威脅地方政府？"],["林部長右昌：並沒有，我們新聞稿裡面有說，這個差額的部分，中央會來補助。"],["黃委員珊珊：差額會來補助。現在為什麼民間團體這麼擔心？就是剛剛講的，我們大家以前都說臺北市的明倫社宅很貴，對吧？明倫社宅如果按照現行的租金，三房型、最大的社宅，依照收入來計算的話，他們的租金大概是2萬5,900到3萬6,900，但是如果按照中央市價打折的方式，一般戶的租金會飆到五萬多。"],["林部長右昌：不會，委員，我跟你報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：確定不會？"],["林部長右昌：不會。"],["黃委員珊珊：你今天的承諾就要很清楚地告訴……"],["林部長右昌：我跟你報告為什麼，因為民團他們可能沒有看到我們其中的配套，明倫社宅為什麼會那麼貴是因為它用新成屋的市價，但我們未來是用N+10年，所以是用中古屋的水準再接下去打折。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以將來這都不會成為他們因為這樣而讓租金大幅上漲的狀況？"],["林部長右昌：不會！不會！"],["黃委員珊珊：這個要說清楚。"],["林部長右昌：這個我們有考慮到。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，千萬不能用任何中央取消相關的補貼來做威脅的手段，可以承諾嗎？"],["林部長右昌：這個我們已經說明得很清楚，我們的雙軌是可以採行的。"],["黃委員珊珊：另外，你們在新聞稿裡面是說擔心會有很多假窮人，是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：最主要是我們在報稅者所得……"],["黃委員珊珊：假窮人是中華民國政府……"],["林部長右昌：委員，我們從來沒有用所謂的假窮人這樣的term，不過我們實際上在實務上面……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果中華民國政府有這麼多假窮人去拿低收入戶，那是政府無能，而不是用這個方式去限制了所謂的弱勢青年或弱勢家庭入住社宅的租金補貼，這是兩件事。"],["林部長右昌：沒有！沒有！這完全是兩件事。"],["黃委員珊珊：我要求的是，不能因為怕有假窮人就傷害真窮人。"],["林部長右昌：不會！"],["黃委員珊珊：這件事情不能因為怕有假窮人，畢竟假窮人很多啊！低收入戶還開跑車啊！"],["林部長右昌：所以我們就是在臺北市發現這種狀況……"],["黃委員珊珊：是這些人他們違反了政府的規定，不等於我們要忽略所謂弱勢家庭跟弱勢團體，不是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：這就是一開始我跟委員報告的，我們的目標就是要照顧低薪的青年跟邊緣戶，還有降低現在大家的居住負擔。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，你在3萬塊房貸補貼的時候講得很清楚，我們要照顧的人叫做邊緣戶，因為中低收入戶政府都有在照顧，邊緣戶是政府很難照顧到的，對不對？"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這就是居住正義裡面特別要去照顧的，而不是因為可能有假窮人，因為他們可能做假，但是現在的狀況是很多人因為他的家人有不動產，所以他拿不到中低收入戶，但他自己沒有辦法負擔現在社會住宅的租金，你同意吧？"],["林部長右昌：是，所以委員我剛剛跟你報告的就是我們會把社會住宅租金的負擔整個往下降。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我希望這件事情要清楚的跟立法院來做說明；第二個，你們這個案子已經定案了嗎？還是還在蒐集意見？"],["林部長右昌：基本上，這個草案已經完成。"],["黃委員珊珊：要送行政院了嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不需要。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以內政部已經定案了，已經確定要進行了？"],["林部長右昌：我們只要再經過一個應該是類似住宅會議的確認。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我想立法院的意見也麻煩部長要納入。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：這件事情對所有的民間團體來說，他們都非常擔心因為這樣而造成了差異。"],["林部長右昌：所以我剛剛跟委員充分報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，107年臺北市就開始做了，依收入來計算，美國、香港等很多先進國家都是依收入來計算。"],["林部長右昌：是，不過實際實務上也發生許多的問題，這部分也不可以漠視。"],["黃委員珊珊：那是我們政府要把財稅收入跟相關的財產調查做得更嚴謹，而不是用最簡單的方式去把它區分，只要用身分別。"],["林部長右昌：當然，不過這部分還需要很多的努力。"],["黃委員珊珊：我只希望不要只用身分別來簡化政府的程序而傷害到這些真正需要照顧的人。"],["林部長右昌：委員剛剛聽過我的說明，應該可以瞭解我們並不是這樣子，謝謝委員的指導。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我覺得很清楚，如果會造成可能的衝擊，我希望你們也能夠懸崖勒馬，重新聽聽大家的意見，把所有的問題再重新釐清楚，不要弄一個新聞稿出來，各說各話，民間團體提出意見然後內政部跟它隔空對嗆，有問題就應找進來一起討論。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我剛剛跟你報告過，我們是把整個租金的水準往下降，所以不會發生這個問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，你們就把相關的具體金額算給大家看，然後一次講清楚，不用這樣互相猜忌，好嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員，也謝謝部長跟署長。接下來我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":146,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-7","speakers":["高金素梅","張宏陸","牛煦庭","許宇甄","王美惠","李柏毅","黃捷","徐欣瑩","黃建賓","張智倫","吳琪銘","鍾佳濱","張雅琳","蘇巧慧","徐巧芯","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra 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我想請部長請部長是 委員好部長我想今天非常多的委員都很關心昨天我們在行政院門口13個NGO團體一起來抗議尤其抗議的就是剛剛講的這個內政部違反住宅法"},{"start":30.829,"end":39.973,"text":"昨天內政部的新聞稿是你親自核定的嗎我有看過你有看過祝蒙給你的回應的新聞稿嗎他說你們公然說謊混淆視聽我想並沒有你沒有看過這個新聞稿我看過"},{"start":55.666,"end":56.307,"text":"這是其中的一部分"},{"start":75.265,"end":95.116,"text":"所以當立法院在住宅法25條的部分要所得狀況負擔能力還有市場行情訂定收費原則以及所有的附帶決議其實都是在這個情況下要求內政部來做內政部做了兩年的考卷現在拿出一張不合格的"},{"start":95.976,"end":111.824,"text":"答案為什麽會引起這麽大的問題?答在說明下所以我現在的問題是第一臺北市政府、臺灣市政府在你們的會議裏面你們的說法是支持認同並不反對所以就等於同意了是嗎?"},{"start":112.464,"end":133.876,"text":"我跟您做幾點說明第一個並不是用所謂的身分別去取代所得別這是第一個我剛剛都知道所以我現在部長我只問你如果你說我們尊重地方政府尊重地方政府的共識但是是不是透過社會住宅新辦計畫非自償性兼備補助"},{"start":135.834,"end":154.783,"text":"如果地方政府實際收的租金低於你的身份制的折數下限他們要自行負擔財務缺口應該不是我們在新聞稿裡面其實有做說明這個差額的部分沒有用這個來威脅地方政府沒有我們在新聞稿裡面有說如果這個差額的部分中央會來補助"},{"start":155.643,"end":156.003,"text":"國土計畫推動辦理情形"},{"start":175.574,"end":195.08,"text":"來計算的話他們的租金大概是兩萬五千九到三萬六千九但是如果按照中央市價打折的方式一般戶會飆到五萬多確定不會?不會你今天的承諾就要很清楚地告訴我們為什麼因為這個民團他們可能沒有看到我們其中的配套"},{"start":196.12,"end":202.223,"text":"所以將來都不會成為他們因為這樣租金而大幅上漲的狀況這個要說清楚第二個千萬不能用任何中央取消相關的補貼來做"},{"start":220.672,"end":222.393,"text":"您的中華民國政府有這麼多假窮人去拿低收入戶,那是政府無能啊?"},{"start":250.407,"end":266.302,"text":"而不是用這個方式去限制了所謂的弱勢青年或弱勢家庭入住社宅的租金補貼這是兩件事這完全是兩件事我要求的是不能因為怕有假窮人就傷害真窮人不會"},{"start":267.602,"end":271.508,"text":"但是這些人是他們違反政府的規定不等於我們要忽略所謂的弱勢就是家庭跟弱勢團體不是嗎?"},{"start":283.866,"end":302.912,"text":"這個就是一開始我跟委員報告我們的目標就是要照顧低薪的青年跟邊緣戶還有降低現在需求的這個大家的一個居住負擔所以部長你在三萬塊房貸補貼的時候講得很清楚我們的要照顧的人叫做邊緣戶因為中低收入戶政府都有在照顧"},{"start":303.834,"end":303.994,"text":"﹚黃珊珊"},{"start":329.577,"end":331.52,"text":"所以我希望這件事情要清楚的跟立法院來做說明。第二個你們這個案子已經定案了嗎?"},{"start":345.24,"end":372.285,"text":"還是還在收集這意見?基本上這個草案已經完成。再送行政院了嗎?不需要。不需要。所以內政部已經訂案了,已經確定要進行了。我們只要再經過一個應該是住宅會議的一個...所以我想立法院的意見也麻煩部長要納入。是。這件事情對所有的民間團體來說他們都非常擔心因為這樣而造成了差異。所以我當然...107年他們就開始做了。"},{"start":377.229,"end":398.309,"text":"美國、香港、很多先進國家都是依收入來計算。是,不過實際實務上也發生許多的問題,這部分也不可以默示。是,那是我們政府要把財稅收入跟相關的財產調查做更嚴謹,而不是用最簡單的方式去把它區分,只要用身份別。是,當然,不過這部分還需要很多的…我是希望不要只用身份別來簡化。"},{"start":399.71,"end":399.75,"text":"﹚黃珊珊﹚"},{"start":414.855,"end":414.875,"text":"謝謝委員．"},{"start":444.009,"end":444.474,"text":"謝謝黃先生的言語。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}