{"error":false,"id":["150159"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150159,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150159","日期":"2024-03-20","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-20T11:59:25+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-20T12:07:03+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:38","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/b8deaa01a2e7f1929e52f7e26cff93ee2c38239db8676b4ff8ba9b0039caa7a6c59471bd01b9acfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:59:25 - 12:07:03","會議時間":"2024-03-20T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長、衛生福利部、教育部就「落實職場性別平等及性平三法上路如何落實雇主責任」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部、勞動部、教育部就「完善職場育兒環境及托育人員專業職能、工作倫理及職業道德之培訓策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1005,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時59分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請許銘春部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，去年我國大幅修正性平三法，其中性別平等工作法最主要就是希望降低#MeToo事件再次發生。但很多案件的共同點是什麼？是雇主沒有處理、處理不當，或行為人可能就是雇主，造成職場上的性騷擾事件，我現在想跟您進一步討論的就是怎麼樣有效防範職場性騷擾這個部分。","我先請教一下，勞動部針對職場性騷擾有訂立相關規範與申訴規範範本：事業單位工作場所性騷擾防治措施申訴及懲戒規範範本，分為3個版本，一是針對30人到100人企業，一是100人以上不滿500人企業，以及500人以上企業，對不對？分3個版本。3個版本裡的共同條文有第四條，所謂對於相關人不適當之凝視也視為性騷擾樣態之一。部長能不能更清楚、明白地說明「不適當之凝視」泛指什麼樣的部分？"],["許部長銘春：譬如說盯著某個重要部位看，這就是不適當。"],["洪委員孟楷：對於看多久等等，有沒有比較明確的標準？"],["許部長銘春：這個可能要……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是員工自己覺得不舒服就認定？"],["許部長銘春：我是覺得要看個案綜合判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：是。"],["許部長銘春：基本上，應該是看被害者的感受，有些人可能被這樣瞄一眼就覺得不舒服了，我覺得應該尊重。因為這個範本主要是要保護被害人，所以我覺得可能比較需要站在被害者的角度來看這件事。但就是要綜合考量啦！還是要看個案情況。"],["洪委員孟楷：但要是這樣，會不會因為規範沒有明確而造成難以認定？還有，我們常常提醒不當凝視會觸犯職場性騷擾，但是可能很難舉證，所以是不是還是要有實際案例，讓這個指引更能給大家依循？"],["許部長銘春：我們會有更多宣導資料提供給雇主或勞工。"],["洪委員孟楷：宣導資料？"],["許部長銘春：對，手冊。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席能不能在這邊作個建議？其實你剛剛的回答很好，不管是男性或女性，若因為有身體特定部位被持續盯著看而對被盯看的人心理造成不舒服的狀態，其實某種程度上就可以構成職場性騷擾。那你們是不是可以把這樣的樣態寫得比較明確，在這項所謂的規範範本裡規定更清楚，等於有個案作為例子，讓大家知道？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：否則，一句「不適當之凝視」可能會讓大家……"],["許部長銘春：的確啦！我們可能要用比較淺顯的例子說明這個文字的意義，會讓人比較明白。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以什麼時候可以做這項修正改進，給各機關、公司？"],["許部長銘春：我們現在訂有指導手冊，在網頁上都有。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席就是看到指導手冊後，認為……"],["許部長銘春：不清楚？"],["洪委員孟楷：不清楚，所以今天才會指出來。"],["許部長銘春：那我們再檢視、再強化一下，因為隨時可以滾動修正。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，本席就是認為應該把樣態寫得明確，讓想要性騷擾的人無所適從、沒有辦法做，也善意提醒任何員工如果在職場上遭受這樣的待遇、符合這些樣態，是可以主張權益的。"],["許部長銘春：是，好。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外，防止累犯跟維護職場安全其實也是很重要的部分。為什麼這樣講？因為我也看到一個新聞講有公司主管性騷女同事，是公務機關啊！結果沒被拔官。他也是主管，沒被拔官，只記小過，然後調離原單位。可是他調離到新的單位後，可能一而再、再而三持續發生啊！這樣的情況會不會造成他的內部懲處其實就是高高舉起、輕輕放下？這個懲戒範本裡也有把解僱作為雇主對於性騷擾行為人的糾正與補救措施嗎？換言之，如果發現公司裡性騷擾的樣態太過了、已經造成大家都不舒服，甚至已經有違法疑慮，雇主可以解僱你，而不受勞基法的保障，你們在範本裡提到，門檻設定是視情節輕重對於行為人適當懲處或處理，情節重大者，事業單位可依性別工作平等法規定，不經預告終止勞動契約。那麼，請教「情節重大」這4個字怎麼定義？"],["許部長銘春：委員，其實也要看個案判斷。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！"],["許部長銘春：因為很多法律條文都有這樣的規定……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，但是「情節重大」就變得可高可低，到底是指次數──一年內性騷擾別人的次數？是言語的性騷擾、口頭上的性騷擾還是眼神的性騷擾、肢體上的性騷擾？「情節重大」是指碰觸到不該碰觸的部分？口頭吃豆腐？還是已經造成大家不舒服，但調離不同單位後依然故我？這個「情節重大」怎麼定義？這樣會變成你給雇主一個工具，但實際上沒有讓他可以有效運用這個工具，雇主可能會擔心觸犯勞基法，或是如果解僱反而會吃上官司。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們可以提供例子。"],["洪委員孟楷：對。"],["許部長銘春：舉例說明會比較好，讓他們比照援引，原來情節重大的狀況是類似這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，所以本席也提出來。","今天就是針對這兩點，麻煩勞動部在我提出來的申訴及懲戒範本裡說明相關個案認定到什麼樣的程度就是所謂的「情節重大」，讓所有雇主有這樣的武器可以使用。如果該行為人真的就是屢勸不聽、公司記了小過、大過，他還是不改、還是持續在單位性騷擾，那雇主當然就可以用解僱這樣的工具請他離開。"],["許部長銘春：是，好。"],["洪委員孟楷：那什麼時候可以提出來？3個月內行不行？"],["許部長銘春：3個月內？好，我們把……"],["洪委員孟楷：3個月內把範本裡相關個案釐清、說明清楚，再公告上網？"],["許部長銘春：我請業務單位再檢視一下，不明確的可能不只委員剛才講的那兩種，如果還有……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，我剛剛是因為時間有限，只有4分鐘。"],["許部長銘春：我請他們再全部檢視一下，如果是可以舉例的，我們儘量舉例。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，包含有個案的、或是過去發生過的案例。"],["許部長銘春：曾經判決過等等。"],["洪委員孟楷：或是比較常出現的樣態，這些都羅列出來，讓雇主、讓職員、讓不想受到職場性騷擾的人有規則可循，這樣可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢。","接下來請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":324,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","盧縣一","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","涂權吉","劉建國","黃秀芳","王正旭","林淑芬","范雲","李坤城","洪孟楷","李彥秀","吳沛憶","洪申翰","牛煦庭","張雅琳","鄭天財Sra 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我覺得 但是要看個案的情況是 但是這樣子會不會因為規範的沒有明確而造成說你難以認定還有我們常講到是說不當您是提醒會觸犯職場性騷擾但是可能很難舉證所以是不是建議還是要有實際的一個案例能夠來在這個指引上面能夠給大家更有依循可循"},{"start":145.618,"end":164.805,"text":"我們會有更多的宣導資料來提供給我們的雇主或我們的老人家宣導資料那部長本席能不能在這邊做個建議就是其實我覺得你剛剛的回答很好就是說如果說不管是男性或女性有身體的特定部位被持續被盯著看而造成讓"},{"start":166.265,"end":187.81,"text":"這個被盯看的人的心理造成一個不舒服的狀態其實某種程度上就可以構成職場性騷擾那是不是把這樣的一個樣態寫得比較明確裡面在這個我們所謂的規範範本裡面能夠更清楚等於是有個個案的例子讓大家知道否則一句不適當的凝視可能會讓大家的確啦我們可能用比較好"},{"start":188.95,"end":212.691,"text":"顯顯的例子然後來說明這個文字的意義所以這個改進什麼時候可以來做修正給我們各機關公司我們現在有第一個指導手冊本席就是看到了指導手冊認為是說就是不清楚所以說我今天才會提出來我們再檢視一下再強化因為這個我們都會隨時可以滾動的來修正本席就認為是說應該要把這個樣態寫的明確讓"},{"start":217.046,"end":230.665,"text":"想要性騷擾的人無所適從沒有辦法去做那我們也提醒善意提醒說任何的一個員工如果你真的職場上遭受這樣的待遇的話符合這樣樣態你是可以主張你的權益的是好那另外"},{"start":232.574,"end":256.311,"text":"防止累犯跟持續的這種職場安全的部分其實也是一個很重要為什麼這樣講因為我們也看到一個新聞是講說有某公司的主管性騷女同事啊公務機關啊就沒被拔官他也是主管沒被拔官只有記小過然後他就調離原單位但是他調離到新的單位裡面他可能一而再再還是持續發生啊"},{"start":257.752,"end":264,"text":"那這樣的一個情況會不會造成說他的內部懲處其實就是高高舉起輕輕放下"},{"start":265.054,"end":291.523,"text":"所以你的這個審計範本裡面有把解雇也當成是一個對於雇主對於性騷擾的行為人的糾正跟補救措施就換言之啊就你如果說你在你的公司裡面性騷擾的樣態太過了已經造成大家都不舒服而且甚至已經有違法的疑慮了雇主可以去解雇你而不受到所謂的勞基法的一個保障"},{"start":296.347,"end":315.244,"text":"門檻設定是是情節輕重對於行為人適當的懲處或處理情節重大者事業單位可依性平工作平等法的規定不經預告終止勞動契約好那請教情節重大這四個字怎麼定義"},{"start":317.555,"end":333.112,"text":"其實我也是要看個案判斷因為我們很多法律條件都是都有這樣的規定對 但是情節重大就變成是可高可低到底是次數我一年內性騷擾別人的次數言語的性騷擾口頭上性騷擾還是眼神的性騷擾還是肢體的性騷擾"},{"start":338.698,"end":359.739,"text":"情節重大,碰觸到不該碰觸的部分還是口頭吃豆腐還是已經造成大家不舒服但調離不同單位他還是依然僱我那這個情節重大怎麼定義會變成是說你給僱主一個工具但是實際上你沒有讓他可以有效的用這個工具而僱主可能會擔心就是"},{"start":360.8,"end":381.109,"text":"勞基法以及如果說我解雇了反而會吃上官司其實我們可以有例子舉例來說明會比較好讓他們能夠來比照援引說原來這個情節重大的狀況是類似這樣所以本席也是提出來今天也是就這兩點就是"},{"start":382.91,"end":410.253,"text":"麻煩我們勞動部在針對我們提出來的這個申訴及懲戒範本裡面應該要把相關的個案認定到什麼樣的一個程度就是所謂的情節重大讓所有的僱主能夠有這樣的武器可以使用如果說這個行為人真的就是屢勸不聽我記得小過大過他還是不改他還是持續的在單位性騷擾那我當然就可以用解僱這樣的工具來把他給請他離開是好"},{"start":412.094,"end":415.64,"text":"那這什麼時候可以出來?三個月內行不行?"},{"start":417.913,"end":444.613,"text":"三個月內把範本裡面相關的個案釐清說明清楚再公告上網我請業務單位再檢視一下啦所以說如果不明確的可能不只為您講的剛剛那兩個我剛剛只是因為時間有限啦4分鐘我請他們全部再檢視一下如果可以舉例的我們盡量舉例是有個案的或是過去有發生過的案例判決過或怎樣或是比較常出現的樣態"},{"start":446.215,"end":455.711,"text":"這些都把它羅列出來讓僱主、讓職員、讓不想要受到職場性騷擾的人有規則可循這樣可以嗎?可以謝謝部長"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}