{"error":false,"id":["150191"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150191,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150191","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T09:09:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T09:26:59+08:00","影片長度":"00:17:17","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc30521254e25a35793f9f7dd815aba809727bf8ba9b0039caa7a68cc37cfed5f851005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:09:42 - 09:26:59","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長列席就「中華民國總統至立法院進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":79,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時10分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請立法院周秘書長，還有司法院吳秘書長。兩位秘書長早。周秘書長，我大概瞭解，您在立法院可說是屬於行政幕僚長的一個身分，所以對於今天這種高度政治性，牽涉到有關於憲法跟法律解釋的問題，您在報告裡面實在不太方便表達太強烈的看法。不過，在您覺得方便的範圍內，還是想請教你一下，民主進步黨的黨團總召柯建銘說：「即問即答，當然是違憲。」您贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：報告委員，在這個裡面各個國家對於憲政的設計並不完全一樣啦！舉個例子來講，法國憲法是在第十八條有明定一個規範；像美國的國情報告，當然它是報告完總統就離開了啦！而我們的設計裡面，我跟各位這樣報告，其實憲法增修條文的時候，把國民大會的職權移轉到立法院來，它後面那一段是沒有的，就只有得向立法院做國情報告，後面的檢討意見是全部刪除了啦！當然我書上是寫「有意省略」啦！我就直接說書上是這樣寫，但是當時立法院職權行使法第二章之一修法有增了五個條文，當時提案的委員本身是國民大會代表出身的，所以他就在後面加了這些。而委員會在審查的時候，又加了一個後面的第二項，用綜合性的答復。","我跟各位委員報告，這一個現行條文的背景跟其他國家的設計本來就不會一致，所以委員所提的案是要依序即時答復，或是即問即答，以幕僚的立場未便表示意見，可能由審查會或到大會來討論，由各位委員斟酌審視考量，如果結果有行政上的配合事項，當然以立法院幕僚的立場一定是全力配合支持，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我理解。秘書長，你在職權上未便表示意見啦，我相信委員大家都同意，也不會為難你。不過，我提供一些背景的資訊給秘書長做參考，現在在高喊說：「即問即答，當然違憲。」的柯建銘，之前在2012年的時候他是在野黨，三黨聯合提案邀請馬英九進行國情報告，當時的柯建銘是怎麼講的？當時的柯建銘說：「馬英九到立法院，立法院進行國情報告，必須採取即問即答，否則根本沒有意義！」秘書長，你會不會覺得這前後的主張差太多了？"],["周秘書長萬來：委員所表示的意見，我未便在委員會表示我個人看法。"],["黃委員國昌：好。其實不僅僅是柯建銘這樣講啊！當時還在當立法委員的潘孟安，後來是賴清德的競選總幹事嘛，當年他也是講：「盼總統展現民主誠意，接受立委即問即答。」。而且在賴清德當選了以後，潘孟安接受訪問時公開表示，備詢與否會尊重朝野協商、尊重立法院的決定，我希望賴清德總統當選人能夠記得他的幕僚長、他的總幹事，跟社會大眾所做出來的「莊嚴」承諾。","我下一個問題跟秘書長的職權就有關係，我相信對於立法院的經費使用要公開透明，這個也是韓院長之前所宣示的。但因為我接到一個檢舉，我接到檢舉時覺得很納悶，接到檢舉的時候我人不在立法院，我就傳遞給那個時候還在立法院的陳椒華委員，陳椒華委員跟立法院的秘書處詢問，2023年本院（立法院）購置的中華民國立法院專供酒，那些酒送到哪裡去了，是不是可以請秘書處提供資料？結果，當時秘書處的回函是未便提供。秘書長，你覺得這種事情有什麼國家機密呢？我們花納稅人的錢買酒，酒送到哪裡去，跟他們索資還未便提供。秘書長，您的看法呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我想大概秘書處裡面……秘書處昨天有跟我報告，關於黃委員所提的，好像有答復了，孔處長有答復。"],["黃委員國昌：有啊！這就是我要給你肯定的。"],["周秘書長萬來：嗯。"],["黃委員國昌：你上任了以後，作風就跟以前不一樣了，我發函要的資料，你馬上就提供，但我覺得非常訝異的是，我們去年立法院花納稅人的錢做金門酒廠的專供酒1,200瓶，秘書長你知不知道最後1個月送掉多少？"],["周秘書長萬來：不太瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：最後1個月送掉948瓶，我光看那個數字就知道了，那個酒消化不完，最後1個月要離職以前，送了948瓶出去，立法院跟我們國際貴賓有禮物上往來的需要，我相信納稅人都會接受，但以前這樣子花的話，我們都要對人民負責，我也不太確定今年還會不會訂這個專供酒，那專供酒要訂多少瓶？我提醒秘書長斟酌一下，以前花納稅人的錢的這個專供酒到底是怎麼用的？為什麼我會提這件事？因為我接到檢舉，陳菊當監察院院長，跑下去高雄輔選已經很誇張了，結果他去高雄輔選的車上竟然有立法院的專供酒，那大家就搞不清楚啊，檢舉的人問我們立法院的錢太多是不是？監察院院長跑到高雄去輔選已經很扯了，結果輔選帶下去的伴手禮，放在車上的是立法院的專供酒。秘書長，你知不知道這是怎麼回事？"],["周秘書長萬來：關於這個案子，因為我2月5號才來啦，我以前在當副秘書長之前，酒大概都有跟委員配合，現在還有嘛！就我所瞭解是以前都有……"],["黃委員國昌：去年開始就沒有了啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：啊？"],["黃委員國昌：去年開始有人要買酒、要送的話，自己要花錢去買啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：我記得我在當副秘書長的時候，我所瞭解的大概是這樣……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！"],["周秘書長萬來：這個是委員……"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長，我跟您說啦，這是前一任的事，我也不會為難你，我提這些例子出來、提這個檢舉出來只是希望秘書長知道，也請秘書長轉告院長，納稅人的錢不可以這樣花，院長公務往來有需要送酒，我相信納稅人會同意，但如果是按照上一屆這種濫發的方式，甚至監察院院長輔選帶的專供酒還是立法院的，這件事情就稍微太離譜了。","好，接下來請司法院的秘書長。秘書長，我上次質詢時跟你公開檢舉，我請問行政庭的庭長可以施壓迴避，要求法官上簽自請迴避嗎？我那天質詢完了以後，高等法院馬上發了一個新聞稿，說我在立法院的質詢純屬誤會，行政庭的庭長沒有我所說的施壓情事。","我們分兩段，這個新聞稿真的寫得太藝術了，他的意思是哪裡有誤會？他是沒有要法官去自請迴避，還是有要法官自請迴避，但只是請他自請迴避、沒有施壓，到底是哪一個？"],["吳秘書長三龍：向委員說明，我們有接到這個訊息，上一次質詢之後，我們有請高院提出這個報告，高院有提出一些相關資料，我們會加以釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：高院提供你們的資料，是不是可以提供給大家？這沒有什麼秘密啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：在憲政運作之下，各院之間有一定的權責，都要按照這個原則來……"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長，你先停一下，各院有權責，這個我同意，現在本院，包括我個人，沒有要代替法官審判，但是這一種在審判外的行政施壓，是全體國人最痛恨的行為，立法院當然可以監督，按照現在高院提供給你們的資料，高院發新聞稿喔！指著我的鼻子說我純屬誤會，那就要跟大家講清楚，到底是哪裡誤會啊！行政庭長有沒有下去要法官自請迴避，有還是沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們會本於權責來釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：這麼簡單的問題到現在都還不知道？"],["吳秘書長三龍：院際之間有一定的分際、依職權、依權責來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是什麼？因為院際之間有權責，所以我今天在這邊不能問？這個事情全體國人沒有資格知道？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然我們任何作為都要接受檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所以我現在就來檢驗，請你回答啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個都涉及到相關人的權利義務，在我們整個民主法治化過程，這個也要合乎一定的比例原則來加以釐清……"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛請教你，這個行政庭長有沒有下去叫這個法官自請迴避，這件事情是哪裡違反比例原則？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個我們會來釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久的時間？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會適時來釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：適時是多久？半年、1年還是2年？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們當然會合乎時宜。"],["黃委員國昌：合乎時宜是多久？1個月夠不夠？"],["吳秘書長三龍：因為這個涉及到每個人的權利義務，該進行的程序我們還是要進行，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：我同意啦！你該進行的程序要進行，我只是問你要多久？連這個都答不出來嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個是各院的權責，我們司法院有一定的運作，我們當然會……"],["黃委員國昌：就按照你們運作的規則，你就給大家一個答案，你要多久嘛？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會本於權責，當然我們的作法也一定要接受檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你本於你的權責是要多久？你說要接受檢驗，我站在這邊問你，你又不回答！在那邊跟我打高空！我問的問題很直接，而且我不覺得我問的問題有哪裡違反比例原則，就這麼簡單的事情，有沒有叫他下去自請迴避，有還是沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個就涉及到院際之間司法院有份內的權責要釐清。"],["黃委員國昌：這不屬於司法院的權責嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是屬於我們的權責。"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！所以我問你需要多久啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會本於權責來釐清嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以你需要多久？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個過程我們一定要接受檢驗。"],["黃委員國昌：我是不是可以拜託主席，請他回答問題？主席，你應該是算滿中立的在聽吧？"],["主席：有，這個東西跟個案審判沒有關係，不是事實層面的東西，這怎麼會是院際之間的權責呢？這不是吧！這個是你們應該處理的事情啊！"],["吳秘書長三龍：司法院也有一套穩定運作的模式……"],["主席：我知道是因為法官獨立審判，你們不能介入嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：當然我們的運作要接受社會的檢驗。"],["主席：你不能介入的是獨立審判，並不是說就這個程序上面或什麼有問題你們不能管。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們的處理流程當然都要接受檢驗，在這個過程當中……"],["黃委員國昌：所以我就問你處理流程要多久，有這麼難回答嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個當然司法院會本於權責來處理啊！"],["黃委員國昌：你當然要本於權責來處理，我現在就問你要多久啊？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個不是數學題的問題，這個本來……"],["黃委員國昌：這不是數學題的問題，你們要求法官，一審什麼時候要終結，多久就要終結，要不然就要管考……"],["吳秘書長三龍：院際……"],["黃委員國昌：你們可以要求法官，立法院不能要求你們喔？"],["吳秘書長三龍：院際之間有一定的分際。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你就是沒有要回答這個問題就對了？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我並不是不回答，我的回答就是這樣。"],["主席：這樣好不好？因為秘書長一直沒有回答，秘書長，可不可以給黃委員一個確定的時間，大概多久內，你可以給他回復？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個不是數學題啦！我覺得……"],["黃委員國昌：所以按照你的說法，司法院本於自己的權責，調查要半年、要1年、要2年、要3年，立法院都不能問，社會大眾也不能問，是這樣嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：你下這個命題我不同意啦！"],["黃委員國昌：好，那你就把你同意的時間跟大家講嘛！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我剛剛講，我們是一個民主法治社會……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["吳秘書長三龍：任何人有……"],["黃委員國昌：所以發生這麼誇張的事情，立法院不能監督？"],["吳秘書長三龍：基本的權利義務……"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我現在就要請教你，這些事情是不是立法院可以監督的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我剛剛強調過，各院之間有……"],["主席：因為時間的關係……"],["黃委員國昌：你們法官內部可以搞這種事情，但立法院不能監督，社會大眾不能問，司法院這麼大喔？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們當然要接受社會各界的檢驗嘛！這個一定……"],["黃委員國昌：你怎麼接受檢驗？連這麼簡單的問題都不回答？給你時間，你又不講時間？按照你今天的說法，就是能搞多久就混多久嘛！"],["主席：因為後面的委員……"],["吳秘書長三龍：這種講法我不同意……"],["黃委員國昌：不是啦！主席，我尊重後面的委員。但他完全在浪費大家的時間，他有回答問題嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這就是我的回答。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講，如果容許這樣子的回答，那以後大家都不用詢答了！"],["主席：我懂……"],["吳秘書長三龍：院際之間……"],["黃委員國昌：每一個都說院際有院際之間的權責，彼此之間要相互尊重。至於什麼時候要給答案？這個我沒有辦法回答，院際之間要彼此尊重！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們的處理當然要接受各界檢驗。"],["主席：是不是這樣？很明確的是，司法院對這問題根本就不回答！我想這就是結論。"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個結論我不同意。"],["主席：時間再拖下去也沒有結論……"],["吳秘書長三龍：這個結論我不同意。"],["主席：那個……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你什麼時候要回答？"],["主席：秘書長，我們就不要再爭執了，不要耽誤到後面委員的時間。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我並不是不回答，我的回答就是這樣。"],["主席：黃國昌委員，就先暫停好了……"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以不要遽下結論。"],["主席：因為也問不到結果，好嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：不是，我這樣講好了。如果我們放任這樣子的事情下去，以後大家都不要監督了！大家通通不要問，本院本於權責，院際之間要相互尊重，所以你問的問題我無法回答，但我一定會接受社會大眾的檢驗。你在講什麼空話？"],["主席：會後請他們說明好了。這比較不好意思，我們會後請他們說明。"],["黃委員國昌：好，尊重主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。接下來請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","羅智強","翁曉玲","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra 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我們接下來請司法院的秘書長"},{"start":537.186,"end":552.594,"text":"委員長我上次啊 質詢的時候我跟你公開檢舉啊我問說請問行政庭的庭長可以施壓迴避要求法官上千自請迴避嗎我那天質詢完了以後啊高等法院"},{"start":553.554,"end":579.492,"text":"馬上發了一個新聞稿說我在立法院的質詢是純屬誤會我們行政庭的庭長沒有我所說施壓的情勢我們分兩段這個新聞稿真的寫得太藝術了他的意思是哪裡哪裡有誤會他是沒有要法官去自請迴避還是有要法官自請迴避但是只是請他自請迴避沒有施壓到底是哪一個"},{"start":583.004,"end":603.014,"text":"向委員說明,那麼我們有接到這個就是上一次執行之後我們有請高院提出這個報告那麼高院有提出這個相關的一些資料那麼我們會"},{"start":605.74,"end":608.242,"text":"會加以釐清啦 加以釐清"},{"start":613.68,"end":637.979,"text":"這沒有什麼秘密啊這個這個我們這個就是說這個在憲政運作之下齁各院之間有一定的權責啦齁那都要按理言者來秘書長我先提一下各院有權責這個我同意喔現在本院吶包括我個人沒有要代替法官審判但是"},{"start":639.296,"end":665.698,"text":"這一種在審判外的行政施壓是全體國人最痛恨的行為立法院當然可以監督阿按照現在高院給你們提供的資料高院喔發新聞稿指著我的鼻子說我純屬誤會那就要跟大家講清楚到底是哪裡誤會阿行政庭長有沒有下去要法官叫他自請迴避 有還是沒有"},{"start":667.024,"end":689.356,"text":"這個我們會本於前者來釐清啦這麼簡單的問題到現在都還不知道這個各縣齁縣際之間有一定的這個依職權齁依前者來處理啦所以你的意思是什麼因為縣際之間有權責所以我今天在這邊不能問這個事情全體國人沒有資格知道這個當然我們"},{"start":690.356,"end":716.659,"text":"任何作為都要接受檢驗對阿所以我現在就在檢驗請你回答阿那因為這個都涉及到相關人的權利義務啦齁那這個在整個我們民主法治化的過程齁這個也要合乎一定比例原則來來加以提問我剛剛請教你阿這個行政庭長有沒有下去叫這個法官自請迴避這件事情是哪裡違反比例原則阿"},{"start":717.559,"end":741.412,"text":"這個我們會來釐清會釐清需要多久的時間這個我們有一定的這個我們會適時來釐清適時是多久半年一年還是兩年我們當然會合乎時宜合乎時宜是多久一個月夠不夠這個我看因為這個涉及到每個人的他的權利義務啦那該進行的程序我們還是要進行"},{"start":742.873,"end":743.014,"text":"因為這個是個驗"},{"start":750.782,"end":773.579,"text":"我們司法院有一定運作我們會當然就按照你們運作的規則你就給大家一個答案你要多久嗎這個不是我們會按照我們的這個本一權責嘛那當然我們的做法也一定要接受檢驗嘛對 所以本於你的權責是要多久然後你說要接受檢驗我站在這邊問你又不回答在那邊跟我打高空"},{"start":775.027,"end":791.275,"text":"我問的問題很直接而且我不覺得我問的問題有哪裡違反比例原則就這麼簡單的事情有沒有叫他下去自己迴避有還是沒有這個就涉及到院紀之間齁司法院有婚內的權責要釐清嘛這不屬於司法院的權責嗎"},{"start":792.537,"end":793.538,"text":"主席你應該是算滿中立的在聽吧"},{"start":810.248,"end":830.412,"text":"有 因為這個東西跟個案審判沒有不是事實層面的東西 這怎麼會是院紀之間的那個呢這不是吧 這個是你們就應該處理的事情啊蘇華院也有一套穩定運作的模式啊我知道院紀是因為法官獨立審判不能介入嘛你不能介入的是獨立審判 並不是說就這個"},{"start":835.833,"end":845.175,"text":"所以我就問你處理流程要多久有這麼難回答嗎你當然要本於前者來處理我現在就問你要多久啊這不是數學題的問題你們要求法官一審什麼時候要終結多久要終結要不然就要管考"},{"start":864.439,"end":877.284,"text":"你們可以要求法官 立法院不能要求你們喔所以你就是沒有要回答這個問題就對了那個 這樣好不好 就是說因為他 就是秘書長這邊一直沒有回答秘書長可不可以給那個黃委員一個確定的時間大概多久內你可以給他回覆這個不是數學題啦 我覺得在我們一個這麼正常的"},{"start":894.079,"end":903.716,"text":"司法院本於自己的權責我調查要半年要一年要兩年要三年立法院都不能問社會大眾也不能問是這樣嗎"},{"start":905.467,"end":909.969,"text":"所以發生這麼誇張的事情立法院不能監督?對嘛 所以我現在就要請教你嘛監督這件事情是不是立法院可以監督的?"},{"start":930.86,"end":954.014,"text":"因為時間的關係你們法官內部可以搞這種事情立法院不能監督社會大眾不能問司法院這麼大喔我們當然要接受社會各界的檢驗嘛你怎麼接受檢驗連這麼簡單的問題都不回答要給你時間你要不講時間按照你今天的說法就是要搞多久就混多久嘛這種講法我並不同意不是啦"},{"start":957.256,"end":972.532,"text":"主席我一定尊重後面的委員他完全在浪費大家的時間嘛他有回答問題嗎這個就是我的回答我的回答沒有啦因為齁如果啦我這樣講啦如果容許這樣子的回答以後大家都不用詢答了啦"},{"start":974.773,"end":987.238,"text":"每一個都說願記有願記之間的權責彼此之間要相互尊重什麼時候要給答案這個我沒有辦法回答願記之間要彼此尊重這個是不是這樣就是說我們就很明確"},{"start":990.339,"end":991.42,"text":"所以也不要記下結論不要記下結果"},{"start":1012.133,"end":1034.45,"text":"我這樣講好了啦如果我們放任這樣子的事情的話以後大家都不要監督了大家統統不要問本願本於全責願績之間要相互尊重所以你問的問題我無法回答但我一定會接受社會大眾的檢驗你在講什麼空話我們會後請他們說明好了這比較不好意思我們會後請他們說明好謝謝那我們接下來"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}