{"error":false,"id":["150195"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150195,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150195","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T09:32:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T09:43:16+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc3052ecd36152c51bf004469dd78c507e1b3ff8ba9b0039caa7a61b0042045124b01f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:32:20 - 09:43:16","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時32分）請環境部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：主席、各位委員、各位官員、部長早安。我們上禮拜討論循環杯，結果網友的點閱已經破20萬了。"],["薛部長富盛：對，這代表陳委員的影響力很高。"],["陳委員菁徽：這表示網友很關心這個議題，雖然我今天沒有要問循環杯，但未來希望有機會可以邀請部長一起去考察。"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：除了考察循環杯以外，我們今天其實還有重要議題要關注，請問部長認得出來這些美麗的潮間帶位在哪裡嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，這些地方我沒有去過。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們還要去考察這些地方。"],["薛部長富盛：可以。"],["陳委員菁徽：左上是彰濱工業區的潮間帶，但是它被列為工業用地，所以開發了光電，現在是光電海啊！左下是臺南七股的國有鹽田，也已經布滿了光電板；右邊是布袋八區，原本是國有鹽田，還是黑面琵鷺的棲息地，結果光電開發引發了重大的生態爭議。剛剛這個圖部長應該就認識了，因為另外一個委員有播，鳳林……"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於林地，因為光電申請案非常多，而它們又是林相不佳的，所以我們砍樹林來放所謂永續的光電板，這樣合理嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：就我個人來講也不太認同，不過這個案子剛剛我也跟委員報告過，事實上它還沒有送到環評這裡來，而且以現有的辦法它也不用送到環評來。但是我相信經濟部在這邊……"],["陳委員菁徽：其實那個是大的開發，你看比較小型的在左下這裡，也是一樣在鳳林，它已經累積到1,701公頃了。你說還沒有送環評，但這是法律來不及規定卻已經在發生的事情，你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，事實上並不是放任他想開發就開發，我剛剛有提到經濟部能源署有一個審核的程序……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來看一下這個審核程序，這個審核程序是總統指示由農委會及台糖評估設置光電的可行性，所以他們就把一些林相不佳、低窪淹水的地方找出來，然後就可以推動，於是就砍樹、砍森林、設置光電板。請問在這整個過程裡面，環境部有做了什麼嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：因為這一塊事實上並沒有進入光電板必須環評重要溼地的部分，所以在這一塊我們沒有直接參與，但是我相信在那個時候，不管是農委會（現在的農業部）以及經濟部應該都跟環境部有一些互動。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以現在開始互動了？現在才開始，以前沒有？"],["薛部長富盛：不是現在，很久以前就有在互動了。當然我們不是主責單位，所以只能提供一些意見的參考以及我們的一些觀點。"],["陳委員菁徽：這樣一般民眾可能沒辦法接受，因為最後的結果還是我們砍樹了啊！"],["薛部長富盛：發生這種事情，當然就是要去檢討、去精進，看看能不能把法規修得更完整，避免未來再發生。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們再來看這是財政部國有財政署在雲嘉南的鹽田，它也是先跟縣政府排除了一些特定水土保持區、原住民保留地、飲用水水源區、保安林地等等，然後就可以辦理太陽光電的標租，所以最後他們淘汰以後剩下102公頃。"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，除了跨部會之外，針對這些太陽光電板的設置，地方政府事實上也扮演相當關鍵的角色，所以他們也一起進來，他們當然也要跟中央部會共同合作。根據我所得到的很多訊息，我們在剛剛陳委員所講到的那些地方設置光電板，其實它的生態是更豐富的。當然我也瞭解……"],["陳委員菁徽：我先給你看一下生態更豐富是什麼樣子，我們來看一下。剛剛我告訴你他淘汰掉剩下一百多公頃，結果他去開發的時候，我們發現如此荒謬的畫面，我小孩看到哭欸！看到如此荒謬的畫面，也就是怪手與候鳥齊飛的畫面，結果最後這個被中止，經過大型的抗議，有23處用地註銷，它最後是被中止。如果光靠地方政府，只由農業部、內政部、經濟部一起去討論，你們卻沒有介入的話，我想這還是不夠專業的。"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，將來我們在修法之後，環境部會積極參與太陽光電設置的評估。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你修法是12月，這中間不知道又蓋多少了。","下一張我們來看一下潮間帶，雖然工業局說這個不是潮間帶，但是當地民眾自己都會拍影片，只要漲潮的時候，這些光電板就浮起來，退潮時就躺在地上。後來去問經濟部工業局，他們就說這個地目是符合工業用地，所以就算你12月修法以後，它還是不需要環評，可是潮間帶是對當地生態保存、溫度調節很重要的地方欸！"],["薛部長富盛：我相信未來環境部會請環評委員針對這個……"],["陳委員菁徽：把這個列入嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：會特別重視，至於是不是列入，可能還要看實際上的條件，我們尊重專業啦！因為很多……"],["陳委員菁徽：其實大家都會自發性地拍很多影片，我也不希望全國人民和小朋友都覺得這些事情非常的荒謬。剛剛很多委員已經問了，因為放在屋頂上的費率比較高，所以就有很多人在原本的魚塭上面故意架了屋頂，然後再把光電板放到屋頂上，我想這個你們應該都已經知道了啦！經過計算，這些不需要做環社檢核的屋頂加起來已經1,117公頃。我們來對比一下，之前你說需要環評，有一個高爾夫球場曾經接受過很嚴格、很詳細的環評，它的面積才52公頃。大家都說這個屋頂上的光電有多好，我們要予以獎勵，結果那1,117公頃現在都沒有人在管他們，真的很違背一般人民的認知，現在許多人是假養殖真種電。","再來我們看一下這是經濟部能源局針對漁電共生環社核評機制的介紹，我們看到他們自己畫的圖，他們自己都畫進來了，一、二、三、四都是屬於高敏感的生態區，結果這種屋頂型的光電全部入侵，因為環社核評都不用做，檢核都不用做，是不是因為你們是平行單位，所以沒有辦法意識到嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，我想經濟部在這一塊應該也有他們的法規，他們遵循著法規審核……"],["陳委員菁徽：我們看一下7年前還沒有升格的時候，我們的環保署都敢嗆能源局，那個時候說綠電引爆爭議，要能源局不要置身事外等等的。能源局還回嗆說：不要看到黑影就開槍。但是現在已經過了7年了，我也很希望部長可以拿出7年前環保署當初的這種guts來。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員的指教，我想發生這種事情當然就要去檢討，希望能夠把法規弄得更完整。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們一起檢討，這個是您提出的修正方向。"],["薛部長富盛：好，是。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊有講到太陽能光電環評認定標準，依照日本是4萬瓩以上要實施環評，結果我把它全部調出來，303個發電廠只有7個是超過4萬，三百多個只有7個超過4萬，所以你是真的有要環評嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：給陳委員報告，這個4萬瓩是日本現在訂的標準，當然它是一個很好的參考指標，但臺灣有臺灣的情況，我們會綜整下去考量。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是我們大部分是中小型，而且你細看這個表，它其實很多是一家公司分散在附近，或是一家公司下面有很多子公司。"],["薛部長富盛：這個將來假如有灰色地帶，我覺得環境部有責任去思考如何去彌補。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以你真的要修改，看是同一個區域一起算……"],["薛部長富盛：好，是，這個我們會來努力。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以等一下我也會提出臨時提案，比如說應該要用累積的計算方法，比照其他發電廠才對，因為我跟你說，他們就是會分散，很多小型的……"],["薛部長富盛：有時候會切割，這個我們瞭解。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後也很希望，如果颱風過後，會看到路邊丟了很多廢棄的太陽能板、歪掉的，現在只能依照廢棄物清理法開罰，但是我希望你也可以在今年內把它納入必須要強制回收的項目裡面。"],["薛部長富盛：事實上太陽能板回收，環境部有在做，因為太陽能板大概有20年的期限，所以現在……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，颱風過後就沒有20年的期限。"],["薛部長富盛：颱風那一塊事實上就以現在的廢棄物……"],["陳委員菁徽：它們都在屋頂上，一定壞掉的啊！"],["薛部長富盛：好，會，OK。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以請你儘快納入。"],["薛部長富盛：好，OK。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：我們謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。","接下來我們請涂權吉委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":404,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王正旭","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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我不希望因為其實大家都會自發性的拍很多影片所以我也不希望全國人民和小朋友會覺得這些事情非常的荒謬剛剛很多委員已經問了我們啊因為放在屋頂上可以"},{"start":419.454,"end":420.215,"text":"計算起來呢這些不需要做環射檢核的屋頂加起來已經1117公頃"},{"start":439.177,"end":447.987,"text":"1117公頃喔好我們來對比之前你說需要環評有一個高爾夫球長曾經接受過很嚴重的環評齁很詳細的環評才52公頃結果剛剛大家都說這個屋頂上有多好我們獎勵他們啊齁"},{"start":455.736,"end":469.983,"text":"結果1117公請現在都沒有人在管他們這個是很違背一般人民的認知啦現在許多人是假養殖在增重電再來我們看一下這個是經濟部能源局針對餘電共生環社和平機制的介紹我們看到他們自己畫的圖他們自己都畫進來了"},{"start":476.926,"end":493.152,"text":"一二三四都是屬於高敏感的生態區結果這種屋頂型的光電全部入侵因為環社和平都不用做檢核都不用做欸是因為你們是平行單位嗎所以沒有辦法意識到嗎"},{"start":495.337,"end":517.76,"text":"給陳委員報告我想這個經濟部在這一塊應該也有他們的一個法規他們遵循這個法規去做升格7年前還沒有升格的時候我們的環保署都敢嗆能源局啊那個時候說這個必須這個綠電啊引爆爭議啊要能源局不要置身事外等等的"},{"start":518.661,"end":530.516,"text":"能源局還回嗆他說不要看到黑影就開槍但是我們現在已經過了7年了我也很希望部長可以拿出7年前我們環保署的當初的這種 guts 來"},{"start":533.274,"end":554.881,"text":"謝謝陳委員的指教我想發生這種事情當然就要去檢討希望能夠把法規弄得更完整好我們一起檢討這個是您提出的修正方向這邊有講到說我們太陽能光電認定標準從認定依照日本是4萬千瓦以上要實施環評結果我把它全部調出來303個發電廠只有7個是超過7萬超過4萬"},{"start":563.724,"end":591.126,"text":"4萬3百多個只有7個超過4萬所以你是真的有要環評嗎給陳菁報告這個4萬千瓦是日本現在訂的標準當然他是一個很好參考的指標那台灣有台灣的情況我們可是我們大部分是中小型大部分中小型而且你去細看這個表他其實很多是一家公司分散在附近或是一家公司下面有很多子公司"},{"start":592.35,"end":610.37,"text":"這個將來假如有這個灰色地帶我覺得環境部有責任去思考如何進一步所以你真的要修改看是同一個區域一起算對所以等一下會提出臨時提案比如說我們這個應該要用累積的計算方法比照其他的發電廠才對"},{"start":611.852,"end":633.553,"text":"因為我跟你說他們就是會分散很多小型的有時候會分切割對這個我們了解是那最後也很希望如果你颱風過你會看到路邊丟了很多廢棄的太陽能板歪掉的是現在只能依照廢棄物清理法開法但是我希望你也可以在今年內把它納入必須要強制回收的項目裡面"},{"start":634.577,"end":634.717,"text":"陳菁徽"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}