{"error":false,"id":["150196"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150196,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150196","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T09:27:02+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T09:40:33+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:31","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc30521345a20229f49e037dd815aba809727bf8ba9b0039caa7a6ceb4dfd8bc894f5d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:27:02 - 09:40:33","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請立法院秘書長列席就「中華民國總統至立法院進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":191,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時27分）主席，先請司法院吳秘書長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長。"],["沈委員發惠：周秘書長稍等。吳秘書長，辛苦了。對我來講，我還是回到今天的主題。今天的主題是有關中華民國總統到立法院來進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議，今天司法及法制委員會召開這個憲政層次的議題，在我們委員會裡討論，我覺得也頗具意義。等一下討論一定會牽涉到很多憲政議題，以及對於憲法的看法，這部分吳秘書長可以回答嗎？我們當然不是憲法解釋機關，憲法解釋機關也不用來立法院，但是以你個人的法學素養來看，你可以用個人的立場回答嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：感謝委員。這個我們有提出書面說明，我今天簡要再說明……"],["沈委員發惠：不用說明。我的意思是，等一下如果問到相關的憲政問題，你可以回答嗎？譬如憲政看法？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就看是什麼命題，我們書面報告……"],["沈委員發惠：請周秘書長一起上來好了。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["沈委員發惠：有關憲法的解釋都不是你們兩位的職權，所以今天請兩位來，不管做什麼解釋，都是你、我、他，我們三個人對於憲法的看法，依我們自己個人過去的瞭解及對憲法的看法。至於誰能夠真正解釋？只有憲法法庭可以解釋，其他大概都沒辦法解釋。今天這問題從剛才的討論及今天所定的主題來看，我想我們還是要講清楚，不然大家會一直搞不清楚，好像總統很怕來立法院被質詢，是不是因為這個問題是政治問題呢？我想我們還是把幾個層次的問題弄清楚。今天我個人就四個層次來跟你們討論，第一個就是現行憲法的規定、增修條文的規定，現行憲法是怎麼規定的？第二個，憲法下來，也就是在現行憲法之下現行的法律，我們的立法院職權行使法就總統到立法院來做國情報告有什麼樣的規定？憲法完了就是法律嘛！接下來我們就看憲政慣例，過去幾年歷任總統所做的國情報告大概有什麼樣的狀況。最後，如果這些東西都看完了，我們就來看憲政原理，到底中華民國的半總統制，誰應該向誰負責？我們就分這四個層次來看，這樣子就很清楚了，才不會在那邊搞得好像今天這個議題變成了一個政治議題。我們今天就無聊一點，讓媒體覺得無聊一點，我們就來談實際上法令面的相關規定。","就現行憲法的規定，總統做國情報告，這個部分兩位在書面報告上面都有寫嘛，這個就是憲法增修條文第四條第三項，對不對？立法委員可不可以質詢？這個我們先回頭來看現在立法院的質詢，行政院長要到立法院，立法委員可以質詢行政院長，這是法律的規定還是憲法的規定？來，我們先請號稱活字典的周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：這個在憲法增修條文第三條第二項第一款是有規定的……"],["沈委員發惠：對，行政院向立法院負責，然後第二款……"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["沈委員發惠：第二款明定立法委員向行政院長質詢。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，所以在第461號解釋也對這個部分有更詳細地闡述。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說，立法委員要質詢誰不是憑立法院高興，我們自己立法說可以質詢誰就可以質詢誰，這個要依據憲法，我們質詢行政院長是依據憲法規定的，對不對？憲法給立法委員這個職權，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["沈委員發惠：好，這個我們就憲法層次來談，所以今天我們立法委員要質詢總統，先不要說什麼一問一答，先不要說到底是要一問一答還是綜合答復，光我們要質詢總統這件事情就要看憲法有沒有授權，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟沈委員報告，我剛才也有說明過，因為我們現行的立法院職權行使法第十五條之四有寫……"],["沈委員發惠：好，我知道，你剛才的說明我很仔細地聽啦！","再來，剛剛講到總統來做國情報告是按照第四條第三項，周秘書長，因為你身分的關係，所以你在書面報告裡面寫得是非常非常含蓄啦，因為你也不能夠得罪立法委員，在這裡面說哪個委員所提的這個是不符合憲法法理的，你只能說這個饒富趣味，這個頗有意思，看看大家的政治協商。","對不起，黃委員，對不起，我在質詢，請聲量小一點。","我們回到憲法第四條第三項，憲法第四條第三項事實上在2000年第6次修憲的時候有做修改，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個職權移到立法院來是有改的……"],["沈委員發惠：對，就是2000年的修正，第6次修憲……"],["周秘書長萬來：跟國民大會不太一樣。"],["沈委員發惠：對，怎麼樣不一樣？條文怎麼樣不一樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：跟沈委員報告……"],["沈委員發惠：就文字來講就好了。"],["周秘書長萬來：國民大會集會的時候得聽取總統國情報告，後面有再加一個並可……"],["沈委員發惠：提供建言。"],["周秘書長萬來：並可檢討國是提供建言。"],["沈委員發惠：檢討國是提供建言！"],["周秘書長萬來：但是職權行使法在修的時候，我們在第十五條之四……"],["沈委員發惠：不是啦，先不要講職權行使法，我們講修憲，2000年修憲、第6次修憲的時候是變怎麼樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：修憲移過來的時候是寫立法院於每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告，憲法條文是這樣寫……"],["沈委員發惠：後面的聽取建言不見了，為什麼不見了？是議事人員不小心用立可白把它塗掉了嗎？還是國大代表寫的時候、抄的時候抄到漏了？"],["周秘書長萬來：報告沈委員，我不太瞭解修憲當時的情況，但結果是這樣的。"],["沈委員發惠：這個你剛剛自己報告時就有講，你只是不好意思明講而已，它就是有意忽略嘛，對不對？為什麼把這個拿掉？這個在憲法修憲有一定的道理嘛，大家都是唸法律的，大家都是這方面的人，修憲的時候刻意把「聽取建言」拿掉，就是有它的意義嘛，對不對？就是說，總統來立法院做了這個報告之後，原本憲法規定的「聽取建言」這四個字拿掉了嘛，對不對？但是如果憲法拿掉，也沒有關係啦，只是變成憲法沒有授權立法院可以提請建議，但是立法院可不可以按照立法院職權行使法的規定，我們接下來看立法院職權行使法也可以，我們從立法院職權行使法也可以來看，依照目前的立法院職權行使法可以一問一答嗎？秘書長？依現行的規定。"],["周秘書長萬來：跟沈委員報告，我剛才也有稍微說明，沈委員也在。"],["沈委員發惠：請你簡短，因為我的時間已經不多了。"],["周秘書長萬來：沈委員也在場，所以我剛才有跟沈委員報告，第十五條之四所寫的文字就是引用國民大會當時處理的方式，加進來了，我剛才有報告。"],["沈委員發惠：對，沒有錯，就是這樣，所以它是怎麼樣？引用了之後是什麼樣的內容？我唸給你聽啦，它是規定「經總統同意時，得綜合再做補充報告」，對不對？第一個，這也要總統同意，對不對？按照現行的立法院職權行使法，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，第十五條之四……"],["沈委員發惠：第十五條之四規定「立法委員於總統國情報告完畢後，得就報告不明瞭處，提出問題」後面又規定「就前項委員發言，經總統同意時，得綜合再做補充報告」，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["沈委員發惠：第一個，總統要不要回答是看總統，依法嘛，依法要經總統同意，如果總統不同意，他也就不用回答了，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：現行條文是這樣規定。"],["沈委員發惠：對，現行條文，我就是在講現行條文。"],["周秘書長萬來：現行條文的規定我剛才有報告過，因為當時又兼顧憲政精神，立法理由是這樣，所以設計一個總統同意的……"],["沈委員發惠：好，不用再唸了，不用再唸了，秘書長，不用再唸了，我時間被你唸掉了！要不然我要把時間暫停，你如果要唸，我就請他把時間暫停讓你唸，好不好？","好，所以不管是依現行的憲法還是依憲法之下的立法院職權行使法，現在所謂的一問一答都是不對的，不符合現在的憲法、不符現在的法律嘛，對不對？接下來，當然修法有一大堆修法的提案，修法提案我們另論，修法如果過了我們沒話講，鼻子摸一摸，該釋憲的釋憲，由大法官去解釋立法委員立這種法合不合憲法，這個再來釋憲，但是在還沒有修法之前，我們就是依照法律，能夠依照立法院職權行使法來行使就已經不錯了啦，對不對？","我們再看過去的慣例，從臺灣民選總統開始，李登輝總統、陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統，有哪一位總統到立法院做過國情報告嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：李前總統是有到國民大會啦……"],["沈委員發惠：那是國民大會。"],["周秘書長萬來：後面的總統到現在，目前沒有……"],["沈委員發惠：那是在2000年修憲之前嘛，他依法要到國民大會去做國情報告啊，對不對？所以之後在憲政慣例上面也沒有總統來做國情報告，而且不是總統不來喔，那時候陳水扁當總統的時候，有兩次他希望、他自己主動說要來立法院做國情報告，結果那時候多數的國民黨否決了，說不要來啊，那時候還引起法律的爭議，對不對？周秘書長，你應該很清楚吧，你這個活字典，那時候他們說依法總統不能夠主動，原本的法律是總統不能夠主動說要來立法院做國情報告，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為那兩次是93年跟95年……"],["沈委員發惠：他要來做軍購的報告……"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯，還有一個是國統綱領，兩件事情。"],["沈委員發惠：他自己主動說要來跟立法院報告，立法院說不要，那時候國民黨多數說不要，他們說總統沒有資格、沒有權力主動來做報告，對不對？秘書長，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不太瞭解，反正就否決掉，就沒有來報告啦。"],["沈委員發惠：好啦，不為難你啦，你是幕僚長，你也不是這個……我時間也到了啦，我不要占大家的時間，憲政慣例也沒有啦。最後我就跟大家講，光我們講憲政原理，這個大家如果唸政治系的第一堂課，David Easton政治學第一堂課畫一個三角形、權力分立（check and balance），哪一個跟哪一個怎麼制衡、哪一個跟哪一個怎麼制衡。我們總統是民選的，為什麼行政院長要對立法院負責？為什麼內閣制的內閣總理大臣要對國會負責，總統不用對國會負責？總統對誰負責？跟立法院一樣，對選民負責，這個是政治原理的基本，所以不是說我們修憲的時候獨厚總統，不讓總統來立法院，不是，因為民選的總統就是對選民負責，他不對立法院負責，所以對於他來立法院，我們修憲的時候還是尊重立法院的職權，讓總統可以來這裡做國情報告。再就國外的慣例，這部分周秘書長在書面報告裡面寫得很清楚，美國總統至國會做國情報告，總統講完就走了，你們自己在國會裡面要怎麼做那是你們的事情；在法國，我們臺灣的雙首長制號稱跟法國的半總統制最接近，法國總統至國會演說完之後可以辯論，但那是等總統離開之後，你們國會政黨自己下去辯論，總統不在場，總統連聽都不聽了，還在那裡讓你一問一答。所以我覺得，今天安排這個題目也很好，讓國人從每一個層面來釐清，包括憲法層面、法律層面到憲政慣例、憲政原理，我們一一把它講清楚。好不好？謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。我們接下來請謝龍介委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-8","speakers":["吳宗憲","黃國昌","沈發惠","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","羅智強","翁曉玲","林思銘","吳思瑤","傅崐萁","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","謝衣鳯","王鴻薇","徐欣瑩","黃珊珊","陳俊宇","楊瓊瓔"],"page_start":49,"meetingDate":["2024-03-21"],"gazette_id":"1131701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請立法院秘書長列席就「中華民國總統至立法院進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1131701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.19471875,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.32971875,"end":6.105968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.48159375,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.000343750000001,"end":8.603468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.62034375,"end":8.687843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.738468750000003,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.82284375,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.551593750000002,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.33159375,"end":21.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.33971875,"end":24.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.06534375,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.200343750000002,"end":23.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.95096875,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.69596875,"end":38.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.48909375,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.34096875,"end":45.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.58909375,"end":54.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.72284375,"end":66.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.53534375000001,"end":67.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.20596875000001,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.31971875,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.18846875,"end":74.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.71971875,"end":76.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.72346875000001,"end":87.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.89221875,"end":77.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.34284375,"end":84.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.82346875,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.15221875,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.46409375,"end":95.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.44284375000001,"end":91.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.61534375000001,"end":99.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.18409375,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.54221875,"end":112.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.74846875,"end":108.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.31284375000001,"end":151.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.88909375,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.49596875,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.49096875,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.66346875000002,"end":168.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.06784375,"end":172.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.11784375000002,"end":173.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.28221875,"end":178.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.73284375,"end":180.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.54284375,"end":183.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.22159375,"end":186.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.42784375000002,"end":187.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.37284375000002,"end":191.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.81534375,"end":192.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.31721875000002,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.78534375,"end":195.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.57409375,"end":197.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.90721875,"end":198.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.25721875000002,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.79284375,"end":211.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.50846875000002,"end":214.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.06909375,"end":216.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.58346875,"end":218.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.71409375000002,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.16096875000002,"end":224.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.44721875000002,"end":226.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.54409375,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.58596875,"end":228.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.23971875,"end":231.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.72471875000002,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.08596875,"end":243.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.06034375000002,"end":246.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.81909375,"end":253.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.81409375,"end":254.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.10096875000002,"end":255.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.07971875,"end":259.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.56034375,"end":259.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.73284375000003,"end":262.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.77909375,"end":268.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.44534375,"end":264.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.53784375000004,"end":279.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.83534375,"end":282.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.28221875,"end":282.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.53534375000004,"end":283.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.76721875000004,"end":296.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.22909375,"end":309.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.18159375000005,"end":307.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.45971875000004,"end":310.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.32409375000003,"end":311.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.79221875,"end":313.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.53471875,"end":314.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.08721875000003,"end":318.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.15409375,"end":338.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.62784375,"end":340.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.46284375000005,"end":341.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.59346875,"end":344.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.60159375,"end":347.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.63471875000005,"end":349.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.35596875000005,"end":351.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.41034375000004,"end":356.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.47721875,"end":359.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.87346875000003,"end":363.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.35784375000003,"end":365.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.91471875,"end":367.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.15909375,"end":373.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.20971875000004,"end":369.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.11221875,"end":377.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.94659375000003,"end":378.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.97596875000005,"end":379.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.19534375,"end":379.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.44846875,"end":379.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.61721875,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.97159375,"end":396.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.69721875000005,"end":382.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.99159375000005,"end":387.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.60284375000003,"end":392.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.63159375000004,"end":400.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.22596875000005,"end":407.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.12784375,"end":408.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.32159375000003,"end":411.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.96221875000003,"end":416.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.97409375,"end":422.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.06221875,"end":426.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.44534375,"end":427.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.57596875,"end":436.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.95846875,"end":438.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.94971875000005,"end":440.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.67096875000004,"end":441.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.61596875000004,"end":443.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.96159375,"end":445.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.42534375,"end":449.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.91409375,"end":451.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.85471875,"end":458.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.73971875,"end":467.85659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.83534375000005,"end":476.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.97721875,"end":479.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.88846875,"end":480.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.12471875000006,"end":480.51284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.17096875000004,"end":482.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.31409375000004,"end":486.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.19971875000005,"end":488.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.78596875000005,"end":500.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.05409375000005,"end":504.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.51284375000006,"end":509.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.09909375,"end":509.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.82471875000005,"end":511.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.32659375000003,"end":512.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.1997187500001,"end":513.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.1784687500001,"end":517.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.50284375,"end":521.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.5903437500001,"end":525.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.1259687500001,"end":529.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.6359687500001,"end":530.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.56409375,"end":532.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.8715937500001,"end":534.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.18784375,"end":538.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.5122187500001,"end":540.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.6553437499999,"end":541.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.4609687500001,"end":542.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.1697187500001,"end":543.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.64221875,"end":545.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.07221875,"end":549.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.95346875,"end":552.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.4172187500001,"end":552.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.91471875,"end":568.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.91034375,"end":558.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.6228437500001,"end":559.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.32659375,"end":573.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.87784375,"end":575.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.73846875,"end":577.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.10096875,"end":578.7590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.94034375,"end":583.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.56846875,"end":588.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.4578437499999,"end":591.5503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.2253437500001,"end":599.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.03846875,"end":606.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.8559687500001,"end":607.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.8515937500001,"end":610.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.5178437500001,"end":612.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.4584687500001,"end":616.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.77846875,"end":618.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.76534375,"end":620.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.25034375,"end":621.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.80721875,"end":626.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.89909375,"end":630.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.67909375,"end":632.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.2522187500001,"end":638.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.71596875,"end":642.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.7665937500001,"end":646.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.90034375,"end":650.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.79846875,"end":654.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.01284375,"end":665.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.5303437500002,"end":674.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.74409375,"end":678.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.8190937500001,"end":685.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.5022187500001,"end":687.4340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":686.8940937500001,"end":689.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.5647187500001,"end":692.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.96909375,"end":696.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.8672187500001,"end":698.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":698.21721875,"end":698.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":700.34346875,"end":700.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.72721875,"end":702.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":702.58784375,"end":705.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.53284375,"end":703.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.69721875,"end":708.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.62471875,"end":728.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.99721875,"end":732.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.7434687500001,"end":735.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.5278437500001,"end":748.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.96034375,"end":753.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.5290937500001,"end":758.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.35534375,"end":769.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.93596875,"end":771.4040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.75846875,"end":778.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.5715937500001,"end":784.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.7522187500001,"end":786.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":787.50284375,"end":790.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.59096875,"end":793.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.6453437499999,"end":796.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.4084687500001,"end":806.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":806.3859687500001,"end":807.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.34346875,"end":809.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":811.00971875,"end":811.27971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":17.479,"end":22.442,"text":"主席我們先請這個吳秘書長我們請秘書長我們司法院"},{"start":26.224,"end":32.128,"text":"還有司法院秘書長還是立法院?司法院秘書長吳秘書長 周秘書長稍等委員好 吳秘書長辛苦啦齁我還是回到對我來講我還是回到今天的主題啦齁這個今天的主題是有關中華民國總統到立法院來進行國情報告及詢答模式之建議啦齁"},{"start":54.775,"end":76.385,"text":"今天我們這個司法法制委員會開這個是憲政層次的議題在我們這個委員會裡面來討論我覺得也頗具意義但是我只是先請就是說我們等一下討論一定會有很多牽涉到憲政的問題對於憲法的看法那這部分吳秘湘你可以回答嗎"},{"start":77.779,"end":102.216,"text":"因為我們當然不是憲法解釋機關啦,憲法解釋機關絕對不會來,也不用來立法院啦但是就以你個人的法律可以用你個人的立場回答嗎?這個,我們有提出書面,書面這個說明,那我今天檢要再說明啦不用說明啦,我的意思是說我等一下如果問到相關的憲政問題你可以回答嗎?憲政的看法就是說"},{"start":103.615,"end":105.136,"text":"就看什麼命題,什麼命題,這個我請周秘書長一起好了,因為這個"},{"start":113.479,"end":136.994,"text":"有關憲法的解釋都不是你們兩位的職權所以今天請兩位來做什麼解釋也都是我們個人你我他我們三個人對於這個憲法的看法依我們自己個人的我們過去的瞭解對憲法的看法真正誰能夠這樣解釋只有這個憲法法庭可以解釋其他我們大概都沒有辦法解釋"},{"start":137.955,"end":163.406,"text":"那今天這個問題這樣子我想從剛才討論齁還有這個今天所定的主題我想我們還是清楚要不然大家一直搞不清楚說到底好像好像總統很怕說來立法院被質詢是不是因為這樣子的問題政治問題呢我想我們還是回到清楚的把幾個程式把它弄清楚了齁我想今天我個人就四個程式來跟你們討論齁第一個就是現行憲法的規定徵修條文的規定現行憲法怎麼規定的"},{"start":166.542,"end":185.667,"text":"在現行憲法之下,我們現行的法律,我們的立法委員執權行使法,就有關總統到立法院來做國情報告有什麼樣的規定,憲法完的法律嗎?接下來,我們就看憲政慣例,過去幾年,歷任總統所做的國情報告大概有什麼樣的狀況?"},{"start":187.509,"end":216.508,"text":"最後,如果這些東西都看完了,我們就來看憲政原理到底中華民國的這個...這個...這個...辦總統是他應該...誰應該向誰負責這個我們就分這四個層次來,這樣子就很清楚了齁才不會在那邊搞得好像說今天這個議題變成一個政治議題我們今天就變得無聊一點,讓媒體這邊覺得無聊一點我們就來談...談實際上我們這個法令上面的相關的規定就現行憲法的規定啦齁"},{"start":219.226,"end":245.898,"text":"這個總統做國情報告這個這個兩位在書面報告上面都有寫嘛這個就是憲法徵修條文第4條第3項對不對那立法委員可不可以可不可以質詢這個我們先來看我們回頭來看現在立法院的質詢行政院長要到立法院立法委員可以質詢行政院長這是法律的規定還是憲法的規定來我們先請活字典號稱活字典我們周秘書長"},{"start":249.586,"end":259.733,"text":"憲法中修條件第三條第二項第一款是有規定的有規定的行政院向立法院負責然後第二款明定"},{"start":260.799,"end":275.549,"text":"對所以在461號解釋也有對這一個有更詳細的闡述也就是說你立法委員要質詢誰不是你立法院高興我們自己立法說我可以質詢誰就可以質詢誰這個要依據憲法我們質詢行政院長這個是依據憲法規定的對不對憲法給立法委員這個職權對不對對"},{"start":284.015,"end":296.146,"text":"這個我們就憲法程式這樣來談了所以今天我們要立法委員要質詢總統先不要說什麼一問一答先不要說什麼到底是要一問一答還是綜合答覆光我們要質詢總統這件事情我們就要看憲法有沒有授權對不對這跟審委員報告齁是我剛才也有說明過因為我們現行的好我知道你剛才說明我很我很仔細的聽啦我很仔細聽"},{"start":311.368,"end":339.807,"text":"再來這個我們的這個講到剛剛講到說總統來做國情報告按照第4條第3款因為給第三項我們聰明秘書長因為你身份關係所以你在書面的這個報告裡面寫得非常非常的含蓄啦齁因為你也不能夠得罪立法委員在這裡面講說哪個委員所提的這個是不符合憲法法理的你只能說這個饒婦趣味這個這個頗有意思這個這個大家政治看看大家的政治協商"},{"start":341.519,"end":362.927,"text":"所以事實上來對不起黃委員黃委員對不起我在質詢你請聲量小一點齁這個我想齁這個所以我們回到這個憲法第4條第3項齁這個憲法第4條第3項事實上在2000年有有第6次修憲的時候他有做修改對不對"},{"start":366.065,"end":366.545,"text":"沈發惠議員"},{"start":386.82,"end":415.897,"text":"提供建言並可檢討國事提供建言提供建言檢討國事提供建言但是在事業形式法在修的時候我們在不是先不要講形式計算我們講修憲2000年修憲第6次修憲的時候修憲給我們一過來的設施有立法院以每年集會時得聽取總統國情報告後面的聽取建言不見了是為什麼不見了是議事委員不小心用綠可白把它塗掉了嗎還是國大代表寫的時候抄的時候欸抄到漏了"},{"start":418.018,"end":426.765,"text":"報告沈委員 我不太了解他修憲當時的這個你剛剛自己報告就有講你只是不好意思明講而已他就是有意忽略嘛 對不對他就是"},{"start":427.822,"end":449.135,"text":"為什麼把這個拿掉這個在憲法修憲一定有一定的道理嘛大家都念法律的大家都都是這方面的人這個修憲的時候他刻意的把聽取建言拿掉他就是有他的意義嘛對不對就是說總統來向立法院他做了做了這個這個報告之後原本的聽取建言在憲法院聽取建言四個字拿掉了嘛對不對"},{"start":452.878,"end":476.283,"text":"但是如果拿掉我跟你講就憲法這樣子也沒有關係啦他只是說變成憲法沒有授權沒有授權立法院可以提請提請建議但是立法院可不可以我們按照立法委員行使法下來看立法院行使法也可以我們從立法院行使法也可以也可以來看我們目前的立法委員行使法依目前的立法委員行使法可以一問一答嗎?依現行"},{"start":484.373,"end":503.982,"text":"我剛才也稍微沈委員也在場所以我剛才有跟沈委員報告第15條之4他所寫的文字上就是把引用國民大會當時處理的方式加進來了我剛才有報告沒有錯對就是這樣所以他是怎麼樣引用了之後他是怎麼樣的內容"},{"start":507.946,"end":532.095,"text":"總統同意我唸給你聽啦他就說總統同意時得再做補充報告對不對第一個他也要總統同意對不對按照現行的按照現行的這個立法委員執行行事法執權行事法對不對第15條第4他說立法委員與總統國情報告完畢後得可以得就不明瞭之處提出問題"},{"start":533.902,"end":552.549,"text":"然後後面就說就前向委員這發言經總統同意時得綜合綜合再做補充說明對不對第一個總統要不要回答是看總統按照法依法嘛依法他是經總統同意如果總統不同意他也就不用回答了對不對"},{"start":555.012,"end":556.613,"text":"所以不管是依現行的憲法還是依"},{"start":580.177,"end":588.153,"text":"現法之下的立法委員行使法、職宣行使法現在這所謂一問一答都是不對的,都是不符合現在的憲法,不符現在的法律嘛,對不對?"},{"start":592.247,"end":617.956,"text":"那接下來當然修法有一大堆修法提案修法提案我們另論修法如果過了我們沒話講鼻子摸摸該釋憲的釋憲由大法官會議解釋立法委員立這種法憲法合不合憲法這個來釋憲但是如果在還沒有修法之前我們按照這個來就是我們就是依照能夠依照立法行使法行使就已經不錯了對不對那我們再看過去的慣例過去慣例"},{"start":621.291,"end":645.791,"text":"我們從臺灣民選總統開始李登輝總統、陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統有哪一個總統到立法院做過這個國情報告嗎?李前總統到國民大會是有啦後面的總統到現在目前沒有在2000年修憲之前嘛他依法他要到國民大會去做國情報告啊對不對"},{"start":646.98,"end":652.355,"text":"所以之後我們在憲政慣例上面我們也沒有即使我們連總統來做國情報告而且不是總統不來喔"},{"start":656.035,"end":677.836,"text":"那時候陳水扁當總統的時候有兩次他希望能夠他自己主動說要來立法院做國情報告結果那時候多數的國民黨否決了說不要來啊那時候還引起法律的爭議對不對中秘書長你應該很清楚吧你這個活字典那時候他們說依法依法這個總統不能夠主動原本的法律依法總統不能夠主動說要來立法院做國情報告對不對"},{"start":681.054,"end":691.637,"text":"一位兩次的9393年跟95年來的軍購的報告國統綱領他自己主動說我要來跟立法院報告 立法院說不要那時候國民黨多數說不要 那時候你總統沒有資格 沒有權力主動的來做報告 對不對你想對不對我反正就否決掉 就沒有來報告不為難你啦 你是幕僚長 你也不是這個"},{"start":709.687,"end":728.014,"text":"那所以齁我時間也到了啦齁我不要說佔大家的時間啦憲政慣例也沒有啦最後齁我就跟大家講就是關於我們講這個憲政原理這個我們大家如果念政治系的第一課第一堂課政治學第一堂課畫一個三角形權利分立"},{"start":729.042,"end":757.97,"text":"check and balance哪一個跟哪一個怎麼制衡哪一個跟哪一個怎麼制衡我們總統民選我們為什麼行政院長要對立法院負責為什麼內閣制的內閣總理大臣要對國會負責總統不用對國會負責總統對誰負責跟立法院一樣對選民負責這個是政治原理的基本所以不是說我們修憲的時候啊讀後總統不讓總統來立法院不是因為民選的總統他就是對選民負責他不對立法院負責的"},{"start":759.437,"end":777.211,"text":"所以對他來立法院我們修憲的時候我們還是尊重立法院的職權讓總統可以來這裡做執政報告再就國外的慣例這個周秘書長在書面報告裡面寫得很清楚美國人家做國情報告之後總統講完了就走了你們自己在裡面要怎麼接制你們的事情"},{"start":779.602,"end":793.87,"text":"在法國,法國號稱是我台灣的辦總統是號稱跟法國最接近法國總統來完了之後可以辯論但是等總統離開之後你們自己兩黨自己政黨下去辯論總統不在場連聽都不聽了還在那裡讓你一問一答"},{"start":797.629,"end":809.479,"text":"所以我覺得今天這個盤牌這個題目也很好讓國人大家來釐清從每一個層面憲法層面法律層面到憲政慣例到憲政原理我們一一把它講清楚好不好謝謝大家"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}