{"error":false,"id":["150224"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150224,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150224","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T10:42:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T10:50:09+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc305268d28c2096d47e82469dd78c507e1b3ff8ba9b0039caa7a6daa114f3341ed6a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:42:46 - 10:50:09","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":515,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時42分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長及官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請薛部長，還有經濟部林次長。"],["主席：好，部長、次長請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：以及農業部的莊司長，以及代表行政院的吳明蕙吳代表。"],["主席：司長請、吳代表請。"],["薛部長富盛：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、次長好、司長好，還有處長好、代表好。還有能源署的游署長，漏掉了。","先請教薛部長，很簡單，氫能跟石化燃料，您覺得哪一種對環境的影響比較嚴重？簡單回答。"],["薛部長富盛：您所謂的影響？我不曉得……"],["鍾委員佳濱：氫能跟石化燃料。"],["薛部長富盛：當然石化燃料產生二氧化碳，造成溫室氣體溫度升高……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以石化燃料可能對環境的影響衝擊比較大？好。其實不只如此，除了使用石化燃料對環境造成污染之外，石化燃料的污染還包括生產儲運的過程，包括貨輪擱淺、燃油外洩，或者是外海的原油外洩、管線破裂，還有煉油廠發生爆炸，還有油罐車。部長，是不是有這樣的風險存在？"],["薛部長富盛：是啊！這個就是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我再請教一下，以這樣來看，包括最嚴重的就是什麼？煉油廠的土壤跟地下水的污染，如果事後要恢復，整治很花錢對不對？中油高雄煉油廠的舊址整治要花多少錢，你知道嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好幾百億。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在發包的就123億了，還不曉得能不能完成。所以一個小結論，請教環境部部長，相較於石化燃料，氫能源外洩對於海洋、土壤、地下水、空氣或是爆炸的危害性，氫能跟石化燃料哪一個比較嚴重？我指的這些項目。"],["薛部長富盛：因為氫能現在還不成熟，所以當然現在看到的都是石化燃料所導致的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以石化燃料對環境的破壞或爆炸的危害性比較強嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。接著請教農業部莊司長，請問一下，目前農業區可不可以設加油站？"],["莊司長老達：如果在特定農業區不行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：除了特定農業區以外，在農業區可以？好，農業區的加油站如果改成了加氫站，對農業生產是不是比較乾淨跟無污染？如果加油站跟加氫站在農業區，你覺得哪一個比較沒有污染？"],["莊司長老達：如果是對於土壤，因為就整個農業來講，它的影響……"],["鍾委員佳濱：很多重？"],["莊司長老達：對，很多重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：概略的以整體來講，你是不是認為加氫站……"],["莊司長老達：概念上，如果是氫的安全性有確保的情況下……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是問污染，比較沒有污染的。"],["莊司長老達：如果單純就污染，是……"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，目前設在農業區的加油站可不可以兼營充電站？"],["莊司長老達：可以，現在已經有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：可以？沒有錯，你果然瞭解。我本來要問能源署的，農業區經縣（市）政府審查通過得設立，那麼請問都市計畫法臺灣省施行細則是哪個部會主管的，你知道嗎？游署長？"],["莊司長老達：內政部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：內政部，答對了，我就沒要請了。那請問一下，條文中加油（氣）站的「氣」是什麼氣？來，游署長，這是什麼氣？"],["游署長振偉：這是天然氣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以不只加油，也可以設加氣站囉？"],["游署長振偉：天然氣可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，請問莊司長，請問氫氣跟天然氣相較，哪一個對農業的衝擊比較大？氫氣跟天然氣如果在農業區，直接回答嘛！常識問題。"],["莊司長老達：就氣來講的話，我認為是差不多啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：都差不多？"],["莊司長老達：天然氣如果沒有燃燒……"],["鍾委員佳濱：游署長，氫氣跟天然氣外洩的時候會發生什麼情況？"],["游署長振偉：兩個的物理特性其實不大一樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不大一樣嘛！說明一下，氫是不是比較快揮發，天然氣比較容易聚集，比較重，容易爆炸，是不是這樣？"],["游署長振偉：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯喔！好，謝謝。我們來問一下，游署長，加油站可以設充電站的規則是不是設在加油站設置管理規則？"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是哪個部會主管的規則？"],["游署長振偉：這個是我們經濟部。"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部，好，謝謝。","現在的加油站可以經營加氫站嗎？薛部長，請回，因為後面沒有你的問題了。我要問經濟部林次長，因為你也當過能源署的署長，現在的加油站可以兼加氫站嗎？"],["林次長全能：我們現在有公告一個加氫站的設置管理辦法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是不是這個？"],["林次長全能：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那為什麼你們這些加氫站的設置要符合國土計畫的規則？現行法規加油站可以兼營加氫站嗎？現行法規農業區的加油站可以兼營加氫站嗎？"],["林次長全能：現在的加油站可以加氣，也可以設充電站，但是我們現在有公告加氫的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：莊司長，我問你一下，這個條文你再看一遍，你認為農業區的加油站可以加油，可以加天然氣，還可以充電，那你認為它可不可以加氫？剛剛問過了嘛！氫比油更乾淨，兩種氣之中，剛剛署長也講了，天然氣比較有危害性。那你認為目前農業區的加油站可以兼營充電站，可不可以兼營加氫站？你沒有辦法回答，這不是你管的業務？"],["莊司長老達：不是，這個我們還沒有還沒有討論到。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我現在直接問你，游署長，這是你們主持的會議嘛！在今年的3月6號，對不對？"],["游署長振偉：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們說農業區涉及到農業部的權責，無法承諾配合修改相關規定。現在直接問農業部莊司長，你認為如果未來在農業區的加油站，可以加天然氣，可以加油，還可以充電，你覺得農業部可以接受它加氫嗎？"],["莊司長老達：這個涉及到的，我覺得應該要更細部的去討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得從你剛剛的回答，其實大家都知道，氫比油好，氫跟天然氣比它也比較安全，既然都可以充電了，最後請問林次長，為什麼都市計畫法當中並沒有設置充電站的規定，可是你們容許加油站設充電站？沒有這個規定啊！目前內政部管的臺灣省的施行細則沒有說加油站可以設充電站，但是你們就同意了，為什麼？"],["林次長全能：因為它是兼營的性質。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那如果加油站兼營加氫可不可以？同樣的道理嘛！"],["林次長全能：我想這個部分可能就要從一個更廣泛的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我來要求，請你們檢討加油站設置管理規則及加氫站銷售氫燃料經營許可管理辦法，讓加氫站可以比照充電站，讓現行的加油站兼營加氫站，可以回去評估嗎？"],["游署長振偉：這個我們可以回去評估，目前也有業者在跟我們提出這樣的建議，我們正在檢討當中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那就這樣，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王鴻薇委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":404,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王正旭","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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這個氣是什麼氣?"},{"start":203.435,"end":222.37,"text":"來,游市長,這是什麼氣?這是天然氣天然氣,所以不只加油也可以設加氣站喔?對,天然氣可以天然氣可以,好來請問一下那個市長,莊市長那請問油跟...如果油跟氣,來跟我們的氫氣跟天然氣上一頁氫氣跟天然氣哪一個對農業的衝擊比較大?氫氣跟天然氣,如果是在農業區?直接回答嘛,常識問題嘛"},{"start":233.276,"end":240.4,"text":"就氣來講的話我我認為是差不多啦都差不多天然氣那個好了我現在劉署長劉署長親戚跟天然氣外洩的時候他會發生什麼情況"},{"start":246.334,"end":273.794,"text":"兩個的物理特性其實不大一樣不大一樣嘛對說明一下新是比較快發但是天然氣比較容易聚集是比較重對但是容易爆炸是不是這樣對沒有錯好謝謝來我們來問一下加油站可以設充電站的規則是不是出在這裡游組長是不是這樣設在加油站設置管理規則是這是哪個部會主管的規則這個是我們經濟部好經濟部好謝謝來那個部長薛部長請回齁好那現在的加油站可以經營加輕站嗎"},{"start":275.143,"end":304.241,"text":"學部長請回請回因為後面沒有你的問題了來來來抱歉抱歉來經濟部現在的加油站次長次長我要問林次長因為你也當過能源署的現在的加油站可以兼嘉青站嗎我們現在有公告一個這個那個嘉青站的設置管理辦是不是這個那為什麼你們這些嘉青站的設置要符合國土計畫的規則憲法規的加油站可以兼營嘉青站嗎"},{"start":306.392,"end":327.943,"text":"現行法規的農業區可以加油站可以建議加輕站嗎 有沒有現在的那個這個加油站是可以加氣那也可以設充電站但是我們現在公告的那個加輕的來 莊市長 莊市長問你一下 來這個條文你再看一遍 來下一頁下一頁你認為農業區的加油站可以加油可以加天然氣還可以充電那你認為它可不可以加輕剛剛問過了嘛"},{"start":331.543,"end":350.308,"text":"清比油更乾淨兩種氣清氣可能危害性剛剛處長也講了天然氣比較有危害性那你認為目前農業區的加油站可以兼營加充電站可不可以兼營加清站有沒有辦法回答這不是你管的業務不是這一個我們還沒有討論到還沒有討論我現在直接問你來下一條"},{"start":355.205,"end":372.355,"text":"那游書長這是你們主持的會議嘛在今年的3月6號對不對你們說農業區涉及到農業部的權責無法承諾配合修改相關的規定現在直接問農業部莊市長你認為如果未來在農業區的加油站可以加天然氣可以加油還可以充電你覺得你農業部可以接受到加薪嗎"},{"start":375.002,"end":396.881,"text":"這個涉及到的我覺得應該是要更細部的去討論我覺得說你剛剛的回答其實大家都知道氫比油好氫跟天然氣比它也比較安全既然都可以充電了好最後呢來經濟部最後主席站起來了請問林市長為什麼都市計劃法當中它並沒有加沒有設置充電站的規定可是你們容許加油站設充電站"},{"start":399.209,"end":414.905,"text":"沒有這個規定啊目前的這個內政部管的臺灣省的這個施行細則沒有說加油站加氣站可以設充電站但是你們就同意了啊為什麼因為他是兼營的性質那如果兼營加油站兼營加清可不可以同樣的道理嗎最後一頁"},{"start":416.497,"end":416.537,"text":"謝謝主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}