{"error":false,"id":["150236"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150236,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150236","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-35-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[35],"委員會代碼:str":["外交及國防委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T11:11:52+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T11:21:50+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:58","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc305247439407af7f2746fc681ffd8597cae2f8ba9b0039caa7a63290f5239d6636835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:11:52 - 11:21:50","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第8次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥率相關情報機關首長提出「國家情報工作暨國家安全局業務報告」，並備質詢。）","gazette":{"lineno":394,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時11分）謝謝主席以及各位先進。有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。賴委員早。"],["賴委員士葆：局長，你早。昨天的外交部長跟今天的蔡局長都說現在總統不宜去太平島，可是我在這裡就下一個標題，他不去太平島叫「喪權辱國」。我們看到兩個時機蔡英文總統都應該要表態，那就是在2016年海牙的國際法庭判了太平島是礁，不是島，讓我們漁民的權益從200海里限縮到12海里，影響非常大。雖然那一次的判決是針對兩造，即菲律賓跟老共之間的權力問題在那裡糾葛，可是太平島是我們的。外交部吳部長昨天在這裡誇誇其談，說我們要太平島的主權，領土絕對是我們的，可是我們不要製造困難，因為現在南海戰雲密布，所以不要製造困難，是這樣嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員先說明一下，2016年國際仲裁出來之後，我們有非常嚴正的聲明，我們不接受仲裁的結果，而且仲裁的結果也不適用到臺灣。"],["賴委員士葆：最少你們去一下，結果蔡總統也不去，沒有人去，漁民組團去……"],["蔡局長明彥：內政部部長去過。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個就是最近海巡署在太平島碼頭花17億，蓋好了、落成就去一下，非常好啊！請問你是不是同意太平島是我們的領土？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，我們擁有主權。"],["賴委員士葆：它是我們的領土，我們有主權，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，相關海洋權益都有。"],["賴委員士葆：算不算是我們的家？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們領土的一部分，擁有主權。"],["賴委員士葆：我們的家，對吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["賴委員士葆：兩岸如果打仗，你人在海外，請問你要不要回來？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然。"],["賴委員士葆：對，當然要回來啊！不分男女老幼都要回來，為臺灣打仗，是不是？結果說不行，臺灣海峽現在戰雲密布，不要去免得增加困擾，這個邏輯不通！"],["蔡局長明彥：國家元首有國家元首的位階跟角色。"],["賴委員士葆：局長，這種邏輯不通！大家都瞭解是因為美國不要我們去。不要忘了，2016年馬英九要去，美國給他壓力，美國希望他不要去。美國也一樣說不要製造困難，說詞完全一樣，為什麼馬英九頂得住壓力，蔡英文頂不住壓力？一樣元首差這麼多！"],["蔡局長明彥：我想時空環境並不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：當然不一樣，一個姓馬，一個姓蔡！"],["蔡局長明彥：也跟委員說明一下，我們對於太平島主權的經營，這幾年著力非常深。"],["賴委員士葆：你說你把你家蓋得多漂亮，你卻從來沒有到你家，奇怪了！"],["蔡局長明彥：我們在當地有駐守官兵，所有武器系統都會更新。"],["賴委員士葆：總統去不一樣，立委去也不一樣。"],["蔡局長明彥：碼頭設施也都完全更新。"],["賴委員士葆：有兩個機會都不去，根本就是頂不住美國的壓力。馬英九頂得住，蔡英文頂不住，美國同時都有給壓力，因為美國希望你們都不要來，如果說去就是附和老共，那很簡單，換成賴清德去，現任副總統馬上要當總統，賴清德去總不會說他跟老共勾結了吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想時空背景真的不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：當然不一樣，一個姓蔡，一個姓馬，如此而已。我們來看這個問題，你在這裡也講過，印太司令在美國聽證會又講，2027年老共準備好了侵臺的準備，這句話你要不要做一點comment？"],["蔡局長明彥：剛剛也跟其他委員說明過，2027年對中國來講是一個重要的政治年份跟軍事年份，政治上，習近平要進入他的第四任期，另外2027年也是中共解放軍建軍百年，他們要實現建軍百年的總目標，所以他們也提到2027年應該要累積或建立起武力犯臺的基本能量。"],["賴委員士葆：建軍百年就要打臺灣，這個邏輯也不通。"],["蔡局長明彥：我跟委員說明的是，他們整體在2027年有政略上跟軍事上規劃的總目標。"],["賴委員士葆：他難道沒有其他的規劃？你說建軍百年，所以要打臺灣，這個東西邏輯不通啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：我剛才跟委員說明的是，在他建軍百年的總目標之下，他們也要求到2027年必須要建立起武力犯臺相關的能力跟設備。"],["賴委員士葆：如果真的打仗要花多少錢？"],["蔡局長明彥：您講的是對岸嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：對岸。"],["蔡局長明彥：當然我們要增加對岸的戰爭成本……"],["賴委員士葆：對，要花多少錢？"],["蔡局長明彥：會非常的龐大。"],["賴委員士葆：我這裡寫的對不對？因為我找了很多資料，一般評估大概1兆美金起跳。"],["蔡局長明彥：各種估算都有，我們都有關心……"],["賴委員士葆：我這樣的估算合不合理？"],["蔡局長明彥：各種估算都有。"],["賴委員士葆：我的啦！你都不跟我comment。"],["蔡局長明彥：我只能尊重委員，因為我不知道你估算的指標，還有相關計算的……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼指標？"],["蔡局長明彥：包括到時候所有的戰爭動員、他所要……"],["賴委員士葆：打多久？"],["蔡局長明彥：時間的長度、規模以及戰爭的方式是速戰速決，還是拖延戰事……"],["賴委員士葆：你知不知道我們現在的戰備準備多少錢？你知道嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：戰備準備多少錢指的是預算？"],["賴委員士葆：戰備準備金。我們有戰備準備，你不知道嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：戰備準備可能是國防部的業管。"],["賴委員士葆：你是國安局的，竟然不知道這項情報？原來的資料是5,400億臺幣，還不是美金，換算只有180億美金，這筆錢要來打仗，但老共是1兆美金。如果數字勉強可以接受，請問老共打得起、打不起、花得起、花不起1兆美金？"],["蔡局長明彥：他們現在整體要不要武力犯臺的評估不是只有經濟上的問題，還要考慮到整體的國際環境，還要考慮到其他各項因素，包括他……"],["賴委員士葆：我問1兆美金是合不合理的估算？你沒有回答。"],["蔡局長明彥：我尊重委員相關的評估，但是這個評估到底……"],["賴委員士葆：這個數字不是我講的。"],["蔡局長明彥：但是我們不知道評估單位依據的準據到底是什麼，沒有辦法判斷。"],["賴委員士葆：昨天我質詢財政部部長，他說參加兵推，財務組、金融組討論到要準備錢打仗，所以可能要加稅或者加捐。我們看到日本為了擴軍加稅被國會否決，波灣戰爭打下來大概2,000億美金，就是上一次打伊拉克的時候花2,000億美金。請問你，打仗要準備錢，如果要加捐、加稅要提前多久時間？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重相關業管單位的評估跟規劃。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你沒有這個數字？"],["蔡局長明彥：因為業管單位還在規劃當中。"],["賴委員士葆：國安局這麼重要都沒有準備好，萬一打仗，糧草要先準備好。"],["蔡局長明彥：對啊！這是一個跨部會的工作啦！各部會都會依照它的業管來做相關的規劃，那我們都尊重，過程當中有需要國安局來提供意見，我們會提供專業的諮詢。"],["賴委員士葆：好，你既然講專業，我就跟你講一個最重要的專業的東西，我提兩件小事，憲兵我們現在要擴編從5,600要擴到1萬1,000以上，憲兵什麼意思？就是義務役，原來賴清德說不會打仗，義務役就是在海防那邊嘛！第一線碰到義務役，這邊打仗，如果老共共軍打過來了、要進了，要所謂的斬首的話，進到臺北市衛戍部隊就是憲兵，結果在我的選區就增加兩個營，一個文山區增加了，中正區也增加，都在我的選區裡面，增加兩個憲兵營，屬實嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想憲兵應該對於首都防衛都有整體的規劃……"],["賴委員士葆：它要增加擴編1倍喔！"],["主席：時間的關係，我們趕緊簡單回答一下好不好？"],["蔡局長明彥：請鄭指揮官說明。"],["鄭指揮官禎祥：賴委員你好，我簡單跟您報告一下，我們不管是在水源營區或辛亥營區，這兵力是配合我們國軍的營區調節……"],["主席：他問你有沒有增加啦！"],["賴委員士葆：5,600到1萬1,000對不對啦？"],["鄭指揮官禎祥：因應國軍調整是有增加。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！都是義務役嘛！對不對？"],["鄭指揮官禎祥：是。"],["賴委員士葆：都是義務役，所以義務役現在就兩個出處，一個就是海防第一線進來面對老共的共軍；第二個、萬一打到臺北市，我們圍起來都是義務役在做，賴清德當選，這些義務役都上戰場啊！怎麼不上戰場？都是戰場啊！怎麼不是？好不好？局長你今天都沒有給我答案，本來期待你要給我很多答案，都沒有。"],["主席：時間的關係，謝謝委員。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員的指教。"],["賴委員士葆：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，那我們先休息5分鐘，回來處理臨時提案。","休息（11時21分）","繼續開會（11時27分）"],["主席（馬委員文君）：請大家回座，我們準備開會。","現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員宣讀。","茲因2024年總統大選期間，不斷有疑似政治人物私人影片以及疑似蔡英文總統錄音檔等內容流出，引發社會譁然。","敬請國家安全局偕同調查單位查核相關影片或錄音檔真偽性，並調查幾起事件是否導致國家機密外流之情形，或者為境外勢力介入選舉之具體態樣，並請於兩周內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：徐巧芯　　林憶君　　陳永康　　馬文君　　黃　仁"],["主席：請問提案委員需不需要說明？"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝主席，我想說明一下，因為外界對這個事情、相關的事情非常關心，我想相關單位可能會認為進到檢調調查是針對檢調有關的，那我要特別說明一下這個提案，我們是針對有沒有國家機密外流以及境外選舉介入之具體態樣，希望去瞭解它的真偽，這個部分跟檢調調查是形式上面有沒有犯罪，是兩回事，所以我們希望瞭解的是行政調查的情況，希望能夠做相關的說明，到底這一些影片跟錄音檔的真偽有沒有國家機密外流的其他情形，希望可以提供給我們參考，謝謝。"],["主席：國安局對提案的內容有沒有意見？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席跟提案委員，我們是不是建議就提案的文字內容做部分的修正，在案由的部分就「茲因2024年總統大選期間，不斷有疑似政治人物私人影片以及疑似蔡英文總統錄音檔等內容流出，引發社會譁然」，接下來是「敬請國家安全局偕同調查單位重視相關影片或錄音檔傳散，評估類案是否導致國家機密外流，以及說明境外勢力介入選舉之具體態樣，並請於兩週之內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告」，我們建議做以上的文字修正。"],["主席：就國安局的說明，在場委員有沒有意見？"],["徐委員巧芯：沒有問題。"],["王委員定宇：我跟國安局確認一下，這一個修正意見是你們提出來的嘛！你們OK嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：修正意見我們有跟相關的調查單位討論過。"],["王委員定宇：OK嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，文字上可以接受，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，如果在場委員沒有意見的話，我們請議事人員宣讀修正後文字。","茲因2024年總統大選期間，不斷有疑似政治人物私人影片以及疑似蔡英文總統錄音檔等內容流出，引發社會譁然。","敬請國家安全局偕同調查單位重視相關影片或錄音檔傳散，並評估類案是否導致國家機密外流，以及說明境外勢力介入選舉之具體態樣，並請於兩周內向立法院外交及國防委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：徐巧芯　　林憶君　　陳永康　　馬文君　　黃　仁"],["主席：在場委員對於修正後的內容還有沒有其他意見？好，如果沒有意見，我們修正通過。","好，接下來我們繼續詢答，黃仁委員改書面質詢。","接下來請洪孟楷委員，洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請吳沛憶委員，吳沛憶、吳沛憶委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":48,"meet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要的一個一個專業的東西我提兩件事兩件事這個憲兵阿我們現在擴編從五千人要擴到一萬人以上憲兵什麼意思就是對EWE阿"},{"start":509.554,"end":538.176,"text":"委員會說原來說那些人都說不會打仗因為就是在海防那邊啊第一線碰到一會這邊打仗如果老共共軍打過來了要進了反我們要所謂的斬首的話進到台北市衛星部隊就是憲兵結果在我的選區就增加兩個雲啊一個文山區增加了中正區也增加都在我的選區裡面增加兩個憲兵營"},{"start":540.911,"end":542.111,"text":"五千列到一萬列"},{"start":562.216,"end":562.296,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":580.294,"end":580.354,"text":"賴清德當選"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}