{"error":false,"id":["150255"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150255,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150255","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T12:02:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T12:09:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:02","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc3052db38d84169378c0de8dac5750a339bf8f8ba9b0039caa7a6b328fc7562c8dfc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:02:54 - 12:09:56","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部部長就「當前供水情勢檢討及因應措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司。(詢答)）","gazette":{"lineno":1075,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時3分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場的工作夥伴、媒體記者女士、先生。有請經濟部的王部長、水利署的賴署長以及自來水公司的李董事長。"],["主席：好，請三位。謝謝。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長好、署長好、董事長好。首先幫部長回答剛剛徐委員質詢的問題，全國自來水的普及率目前平均是超過95%，屏東還不到70%，其他倒數第二名的南投，也超過差不多85%，所以我們非常支持經濟部水利署全力支援水公司推動無自來水地區的普及計畫，可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。好，那我現在要問了，目前水情吃緊，是嗎？桃竹苗之前開始轉為綠燈，到底今年的水情是如何？需要停灌嗎？"],["賴署長建信：今年我們已經成立了應變小組審慎來應對，然後桃竹苗中地區，我們做了水情燈號稍緊的提醒……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝署長。部長，每次只要水情吃緊，就是優先請稻農支援，沒有錯，我們看到各種的統計數字，全臺灣38萬公頃的水田對地下水的補注量有20億立方米，比6座翡翠水庫的有效蓄水容量還大，其實農業用水不是用掉，它是補注。今年單位面積的停灌補助創20年新高，請問你認為農業對我們臺灣的GDP貢獻有多少？部長，請教一下，您覺得農業對GDP的貢獻多還少，比起台積電？"],["王部長美花：如果就GDP來講，當然不是很高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說經濟部一向都讓農業來支援工業，用水調度也是如此，而且你們還很慷慨，你們都有給農民停灌補助，對不對？都沒有少給嘛？"],["王部長美花：沒有，沒有少給。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，可是問題來了，停灌補助對於農業從業者工作權的影響，第一，育苗業，稻田停耕休耕，育苗的工人留不住；第二，碾米廠，農民沒有耕種沒有米，他的經營風險增加；最嚴重的是農民，有時候你們這個停跟不停，比如我整地後你停灌，我前面的成本都花下去了，有時候我還沒有整地，我不知道你會不會給我水，你給我水之後我還沒有整地，我也沒辦法插秧，所以長期休耕將會使農業難以維持。部長，你瞭解嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們其實常常都在跟農業部溝通，是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。我們看一下目前的用水比例，目前看起來農業用水用了七成；民生用水兩成；工業用水10%，外界都認為傳統的灌溉有五成的用水是浪費掉，其實不是，它是蒸散、耗損跟滲漏，其實並不是農民把它喝掉。我們往下看，如何促進節水，經濟部在民生用水部分鼓勵使用節水商品，是不是這樣？部長。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：工業用水部分，你們要開徵耗水費，對不對？使用者付費嘛。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都能有效的提高節水，那農業用水如何提高它的效能呢？部長，你有沒有什麼想法。"],["賴署長建信：跟委員說明，在這個部分我們結合科技部（也就是現在的國科會）針對農業精進灌溉的技術，田間自動水門操作的部分，不論是在臺南，臺南有幾百公頃，還有包括……"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為時間有限，署長，我知道你們很盡力，但是經濟部、水利署是水資源的主管機關，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：全國的水都由你們經濟部、水利署來調度嘛，農業供水的水權要跟誰拿，是農業部管的嗎？"],["賴署長建信：水權是跟我們申請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以農業用水還是要跟經濟部申請，對不對？部長，是不是這樣子？部長。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛。所以你們是唯一的水權分配機關，也是水資源的管理機關。","好，請看下一頁，農業用水的節水方式包括農地的沉砂池，讓這些土砂不要阻塞我們的溝渠；第二個，我們去整治滲漏的溝渠，提高它的輸水效能；第三，我們讓末段的管路灌溉設施能夠節能化，像以色列那種滴灌的方式。請問一下部長，節省農業用水也可以達到省水的目的，你同不同意？"],["王部長美花：完全同意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好。那這些事情都是誰在做，我講的這三件事情都是誰在做？我告訴你……"],["王部長美花：就我知道的是農業部這邊有個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：農業部有農水署、有農糧署，但是有一個東西我認為經濟部可以幫忙，就是沉砂池。請往下看，其實我們看到經濟部做了一個大潮州人工湖，對不對？"],["賴署長建信：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對於我們水資源的補充，效果是不是很好？部長，你認為有沒有很大的效果？"],["賴署長建信：目前我們看起來是有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長，你認為這14億花的值得嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴署長建信：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我要告訴你，其實沉砂池雖然是農業供水的上游設施，但是它的效果、能夠達到的目的其實跟人工湖也有點類似，它可以幫助我們農業用水提高效率，但是你知道一座沉砂池要花多少農水署的預算嗎？署長，你也知道嘛，我在講高樹那座沉砂池，花了多少錢？"],["賴署長建信：那個差不多……"],["鍾委員佳濱：花了快2億。所以我覺得經濟部要思考一下，全國的水資源是你們在調度，不管是農業用水、工業用水或是民生用水，你們都要幫忙，民生用水、工業用水你們想辦法讓它節流，讓它提高用水效率，農業部也很用心的提高農業用水效率。我們看下一頁，所以我要求是不是可以請部長跟農業部一起盤點現在農業供水的上游設施，你們寬列預算共同來提升農業用水的效能，可以嗎？部長。"],["賴署長建信：跟委員說明，這部分在疫後的特別預算裡面，行政院有特別給農業部……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道，但是疫後特別預算已經結束了嘛，所以部長，我問了……"],["賴署長建信：他們現在也有提相關的公建計畫在執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那是農業部提的嘛。"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我說的是經濟部，我要拜託經濟部。部長，我要請教一下，為了無自來水地區的普及計畫，我去拜託了主計長，他承諾只要水公司的量能可以，李董事長，只要你們量能可以，他一定足額編列。部長，你聽了開不開心？"],["王部長美花：謝謝，謝謝委員幫忙爭取。"],["鍾委員佳濱：李董事長，你聽了擔不擔心？我們預算給你足了，你要是做不出來唯你是問喔，無自來水地區的普及計畫。"],["李董事長嘉榮：跟委員報告，這個計畫是水利署在主導，他們每一年編列預算，大概有百分之七、八十是由我們水公司來執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，沒有錯，如果給你很多錢，你執行得完嘛，應該不會擔心執行不完啦！","謝謝部長、謝謝水公司董事長，也謝謝水利署非常支持，我也要拜託針對我們的農業用水，不要總是水情吃緊時就要求農民停灌，然後給他們補償，造成農民的農業生產中斷，希望你們也跟農業部共同對於農業供水的上游設施，像是沉砂池，責成水利署共同來協助推動可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。自來水公司是缺錢，它一定做得出來，董事長都是在自來水公司快30年的老將，所以大家加油，謝謝。","接下來請黃珊珊委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-4","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","張嘉郡","賴瑞隆","鄭正鈐","陳超明","邱志偉","賴士葆","洪孟楷","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","黃珊珊","黃國昌","王鴻薇","何欣純","陳冠廷","蔡易餘","邱議瑩","劉建國"],"page_start":169,"meetingDate":["2024-03-21"],"gazette_id":"1131801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131801_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請經濟部部長就「當前供水情勢檢討及因應措施」進行報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年\n度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司。（詢\n答）","agenda_id":"1131801_00013"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.7565937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.185343750000001,"end":16.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.43346875,"end":24.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.42784375,"end":26.558468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.18221875,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.26221875,"end":33.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.27034375,"end":43.922843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.17596875,"end":56.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.38909375,"end":57.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.40596875000001,"end":58.806593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.97971875,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.59096875,"end":63.430343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.42596875000001,"end":64.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.96596875,"end":64.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.32034375,"end":65.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.33721875,"end":66.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.65346875,"end":67.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.13846875,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.93471875,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.01471875,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.02721875,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.71909375,"end":78.75284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.75284375000001,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.26534375,"end":95.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.15096875,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.57659375,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.23784375000001,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.52034375000001,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.51596875000001,"end":111.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.33846875,"end":112.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.22846875,"end":117.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.68784375000001,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.10096875,"end":126.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.74534375,"end":127.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.82534375,"end":129.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.21346875,"end":129.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.44096875,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.17034375,"end":134.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.43596875,"end":136.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.71846875,"end":137.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.29221875000002,"end":138.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.04721875,"end":140.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.90346875,"end":141.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.33784375000002,"end":143.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.92409375,"end":145.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.57784375,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.09659375,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.32409375,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.68221875,"end":155.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.24721875,"end":161.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.63846875000002,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.60409375,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.15221875,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.05784375000002,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.29346875000002,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.25471875000002,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.81159375000001,"end":192.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.00096875,"end":192.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.30471875,"end":193.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.67159375,"end":196.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.36721875,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.97034375,"end":201.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.65346875,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":219.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.40596875000003,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.81909375,"end":224.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAK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董事長好 那首先幫部長回答剛剛諮詢的徐委員的問題啦全國自來水的普及率目前平均是超過95%那屏東呢還不到70%其他倒數第二名的南投也超過差不多85%所以呢我們非常支持經濟部水利署全力支援水公司來無自來水地區的普及計劃 可以嗎?是是是好謝謝我現在問了目前水情吃緊是嗎?"},{"start":61.616,"end":76.177,"text":"桃竹苗開始都轉綠之前到底今年的水情是如何?需要停灌嗎?今年我們是已經成立了一遍小組然後省省來應對桃竹苗中地區我們做水情燈號燒警的提醒謝謝署長部長"},{"start":78.78,"end":103.821,"text":"每次只要水情知情下一頁就是優先請盜農資源沒有錯啦我們看到各種的統計數字那麼全台灣38萬公頃的水田使用的地下水補助量20億它比六柱的翡翠水庫的有效量還大其實農業用水它不是用掉它是補助那今年的停灌面積補助停灌補助高達20年請問你認為農業的GDP對我們台灣的貢獻有多少"},{"start":107.264,"end":133.446,"text":"部長請教一下您覺得農業的GDP貢獻多還少比起台積電當然如果就GDP來講當然不是很高啦所以說啊經濟部呢一向呢來農業支援工業用水也是如此用水雕塑也是如此而且呢你們還很慷慨你們都給農民有停灌補助對不對都沒有少給嘛沒有沒有少給可是問題是來了停灌補助對於農業從業者的工作權第一"},{"start":134.209,"end":161.403,"text":"玉苗業、稻田、停耕、休耕工人、玉苗業工人留不住第二、年明廠你沒有種、沒有米它的經營風險增加最嚴重的是農民有時候你們這個停耕不停啊我整地後你停灌我前面的成本都花下去了有時候呢我還沒整地我不知道你今天會不會給我水你給我水之後啊我沒有整地我也沒辦法插秧所以長期休耕將會使農業難以維持部長你了解嗎"},{"start":163.074,"end":182.429,"text":"我們其實常常都跟農業部溝通所以說目前的用水比例我們看一下目前的農業用水看起來用了7成民生用2成、供應用10成那傳統都認為說傳統的灌溉有5成的用水是浪費掉其實不是啦他是增善耗損跟滲漏其實呢並不是農民把它喝掉往下看"},{"start":183.345,"end":200.432,"text":"所以如果確認節水是不是經濟部名稱用水鼓勵節水商品嗎是不是這樣部長是工業用水你們要求什麼耗水費對不對使用者付費嗎是對有效提高節水那農業用水如何提高它的效能呢部長你有沒有什麼想法跟委員說明這個部分我們結合"},{"start":201.733,"end":223.962,"text":"科技部也就是現在的國科會針對農業精進灌溉的這個技術田間的自動水門的操作的部分博人是在臺南臺南有幾百公頃還有包括因為時間有限我知道你們很盡力但是呢水利署是不是全國的水資源經濟部是水資源的主管機關嗎對不對全國的水都有你們經濟部水利署來調度嗎"},{"start":224.827,"end":253.13,"text":"那農業供水是水權是要跟誰拿?是農業部管的嗎?阿水權跟我們申請所以農業用水還是要跟經濟部對不對?部長是不是這樣子?部長是是嘛齁所以你們是唯一的水權的分配機關也是水資源的管理機關好看下一頁農業用水的節水方式呢包括農地的沉砂池讓這些水啊不要去阻塞我們的溝渠第二個我們去整治滲漏的溝渠提高它的輸水的效能"},{"start":253.57,"end":279.714,"text":"第三我們末端的管路設施我們讓它能夠節能化像以色列那種低管的方式請問一下你認為部長你認為幫省農業用水也可以達到省水的目的你同不同意?完全同意好那這些事情都誰在做我講的這三件事情都誰在做?就我的知道是農業部這邊有農業部有農水署有農糧署但是有一個東西我認為經濟部可以幫忙就是陳沙子往下看"},{"start":280.905,"end":309.992,"text":"其實呢我們看到了經濟部做了一個大操作人工湖對不對是對於我們水資源的補充效果是不是很好部長你認為有沒有很大的效果目前我們看起來是有部長你認為這14億花的值得嗎是那我告訴你其實沉砂池雖然是農業供水的上游設施但它的效果達到目的其實跟人工湖也有點類似啦它可以幫助我們農業運動提高效率但是你知道嗎一座沉砂池要花多少農水組的預算嗎署長你知道吧我在講高速那座沉砂池"},{"start":310.592,"end":314.558,"text":"花了多少錢?花了快兩億啦!"},{"start":316.319,"end":343.047,"text":"所以我是覺得呢經濟部來思考一下全國的水資源你們在調度不管是農業用水、工業用水、民生用水你們都要幫忙那民生用水、工業用水你們想盡量讓它節流讓它提高用水效率農業部也很用心的提高農業用水效率我們看下一頁所以我的要求是不是可以請部長談點現在跟農業部一起農業供水的上游設施你們寬列預算共同來提升農業用水的效能可以嗎"},{"start":344.875,"end":369.781,"text":"部長,跟委員說明,這個部分在1號的特別預算裡面,行政會員有特別給農業部。我知道,但是1號特別預算已經結束了嘛。所以部長,他們現在也有提公建計畫在執行。那是農業部提嘛。對。我說經濟部,我拜託經濟部部長,我要請教一下。因為為了無自來稅的普及地區,我去拜託主計長,他承諾只要水公司的量能,李董事長,只要你們量能可以,他一定逐額編列。部長你聽得開不開心?"},{"start":372.652,"end":391.418,"text":"謝謝委員幫忙李董事長你聽了擔不擔心我們預算給你足了你要是做不出來為你試問喔吳志蘭水地區的普及計畫跟委員報告因為這個計畫是水利署他們在主導啦他們每年編的多少預算那大概有百分之七八十是由我們水工時代是沒有錯我給你很多錢你執行的完嗎齁"},{"start":393.099,"end":417.413,"text":"謝謝部長、謝謝我們水公司的董事長也謝謝我們的水利網,非常支持我也請你拜託我們農業用水不要懂事水情吃緊要求農民停灌然後給他補償造成農民的中斷我們希望你們也跟農業部共同對於農業供水的上游設施像成沙池、結成水利署共同來協助推動可以嗎?是是好謝謝好謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}