{"error":false,"id":["150259"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150259,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150259","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-7","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":7,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T11:59:34+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T12:13:59+08:00","影片長度":"00:14:25","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc30522107a630af34d6d2469dd78c507e1b3ff8ba9b0039caa7a668562666524dd9f25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"11:59:34 - 12:13:59","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、農業部、國家發展委員會、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「加速推動再生能源對國土環境之影響及環境影響評估認定標準修訂進度」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月20日及21日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":914,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（11時59分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，26日環境部要再召開第二次的碳費審議會，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：對，下禮拜，26號。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛，沒有錯。那天是不是會決定碳費的價格？"],["薛部長富盛：我必須尊重碳費審議委員會他們自己的決定，因為我們在3月15號開第一次會議，感覺上很多委員是需要對這個部分的背景做更進一步的瞭解，所以也很可能……當然我不曉得他們到時候會怎麼樣決定，那就由他們來決定。當然原本我們主觀的期待是能夠在月底前有一個比較具體的結論，但是看情況可能需要一些時間。"],["劉委員建國：瞭解。我會這麼問是因為現在大家都在喊價格，怎麼喊？有人覺得碳費剛開始不應該超過100元，當然也有人主張要從500元開始……"],["薛部長富盛：對，這個我瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：並逐年調高至每噸幾千塊。但最主要是因為我看到部長去年在經濟日報的專訪，認為每噸的碳費高於10美元是必然，也就是將近300出的臺幣，且未來朝向漸進式的方向來調高，這是部長講的。所以部長你認為……"],["薛部長富盛：跟劉委員報告，事實上……"],["劉委員建國：因為這個你是公開講的，是接受經濟日報……"],["薛部長富盛：要喊價是很容易喊，大家都喊多少、多少，但是站在行政部門的角度，我們要衡量的因素說真的滿多的，我們不是以收碳費作為主要的目標，事實上我們主要目標是淨零的這個大目標，希望臺灣能夠跟上國際的腳步，在2030年、2050年順利達標。大家很清楚環境部的角度是希望能夠達到實質減碳，碳費只是我們應用的一個工具，至於到底要多少錢，當初是根據我們委託的中華經濟研究院所做的評估，他們2年前評估是大概10美元是可以的一個情況；但是這2年來，我想國際環境各方面的變化也很大，我覺得環境部也有責任去考量整個國際的情勢以及國內產業的發展，我希望大家有這種共識。"],["劉委員建國：對，我知道，我就是希望部長講清楚一點，但我不是要讓部長現在馬上答復說要多少錢，所以部長也不用這麼緊張，好不好？但最主要是因為……"],["薛部長富盛：好，講太多了啦。"],["劉委員建國：不是。因為部長去年是接受經濟日報的專訪說出這樣的一個方向，那麼如果一直懸而不決，我是覺得有人會趁機發這種恐慌財，因為從100到500之間都有人在講，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：那會造成整個產業界的恐慌。所以我才覺得臺灣在100元到500元之間膠著，而歐盟在去年10月已經開始實施碳邊境的調整機制CBAM，然後2023年10月試行上路，當時僅要求進口商提交碳數據，尚不需繳納憑證費用，2026年這個付費制度開始正式實施，初期涵蓋五大產業，2027年對整個執行進行全面評估，尤其對於低度開發國家的影響，2034年就要全面來施行，擴大到所有其他產業，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，這是他們的規劃。"],["劉委員建國：人家的步驟都已經非常清楚的出來了，所以我在想說，如果照歐盟這樣的碳邊境調整機制，要求產品在原出產國就進行減碳及支付相關碳費，但這個原產國如果沒有減少碳排或支付足夠的碳費就必須在進口時被課稅。根據經濟部的統計，CBAM管制水泥、電力、肥料、鋼鐵、鋁等248項的產品，其中臺灣就已經包含了212項，這個比例非常高，貿易金額也高達245億左右，所以如果我們臺灣在2026年以前沒有辦法讓碳費與歐盟的機制做對接，我們會付出慘痛的代價。"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，事實上CBAM跟我們收取碳費，在某一個程度它有重疊的部分，但事實上是各自運行在做，不是現在臺灣要針對排碳量2.5萬噸來收取碳費，那就可以跟CBAM一樣，不一樣。CBAM從去年10月份開始要求進口到歐洲，根據剛剛劉委員講的這五大──事實上是六大產業裡面的產品要報碳足跡，可是根據第一季它們所呈現出來的才10%去報，因為對歐盟以及進口商來說，很多也是第一次執行。","我再跟委員報告一件事情，本來美國去年要推CCA──清潔競爭法案，事實上到現在都沒有。所以我們當然朝著我們目標在前進，但是臺灣也有臺灣的腳步，也請委員支持，環境部絕對會積極來做這一塊，但是不必然跟CBAM完全扣合在一起。特別是CBAM本來去年底想要把一些執行細則公布出來，結果也沒有公布，所以這是一個非常複雜的問題。","我也知道國內很多名嘴到處都在講這些東西，我在這邊真的是告訴大家，有些似是而非、並不是真正的情況。我們跟經濟部一直有在進行次長級的密切溝通聯繫，委員可以給我們一些指導。"],["劉委員建國：我把這個問題點出來，我知道這個相當複雜啦，尤其很多都是即將實施或是準備要實施，不一定完全去match，但是基本上的對接範疇，我想那個基礎還是要啦！"],["薛部長富盛：是！"],["劉委員建國：然後對廠家的溝通部分，我知道部、署或司……包含經濟部、環境部都有在做。"],["薛部長富盛：對，經濟部這邊也很積極。"],["劉委員建國：可能要再提高那個比例啦。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["劉委員建國：因為複雜性的東西太多、太多啦，也不要讓我們這些中小企業真的在某個程度上感覺到無所遵循。"],["薛部長富盛：瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：我坦白講，有時候政府單位當中，環境部講的跟經濟部講的在角度上也不盡相同，這事實上都有過。"],["薛部長富盛：跟劉委員補充報告，我們收碳費是每年2.5萬噸，但是CBAM要繳交碳費的很多很可能是中小企業，事實上它在臺灣是不用繳碳費的，還沒有到那個階段，因為我們現在門檻是2.5萬噸，所以很多人就把這二個完全掛勾、覺得相等，只要繳碳費到那邊就怎麼樣，事實上不一樣，所以經濟部現在才一直很積極努力來協助中小企業，特別是受CBAM影響的這些企業。"],["劉委員建國：所以我這邊要特別提醒，甚至要求環境部、經濟部可能要在相關的說明會讓廠家可以更加清楚，可能要再強化，甚至比例要再提高。"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們會來努力。"],["劉委員建國：我的時間被部長講掉三分之二。"],["薛部長富盛：抱歉，講太多了。"],["劉委員建國：這個碳費議題我想不只造成產業界的恐慌，可能連一般百姓都會恐慌，經濟部明天又要召開電價費率審議，部長還有林次長，明天會決定了嗎？"],["林次長全能：謝謝委員，我想電價審議會有它的運作機制，當然明天會決定整個電價審議的結果。"],["劉委員建國：是呀，所以跟部長一樣都是尊重嘛？對啦、對啦！"],["林次長全能：因為電價審議有它的運作機制啦。"],["劉委員建國：當然，我知道啦！調整電費就是跟民生息息相關嘛，我們都很清楚。我們回過頭來討論台電，2023年當年就虧了1,985億，已經累積達到3,820億，預估今年可能還要再虧1,850億以上，甚至不會以下，絕對要以上！為什麼？我把一些東西先省略掉，因為時間的問題啦。","我在環境部事業溫室氣體排放量資訊平台，把台電事業體的碳排資料調出來，我粗算一下、大約估算一下，2022年台電大約碳排1.9億公噸，如果照部長接受經濟日報訪問的回應，以一噸300元來計算，台電在2022年大約就要繳586億新臺幣。"],["薛部長富盛：我跟委員報告一下，台電發的電很多是賣出去的，賣出去那一塊事實上是不用。"],["劉委員建國：沒關係，部長，你就搶著要講，那個部分可以扣掉多少、比例多少？"],["薛部長富盛：至少70%以上吧！"],["劉委員建國：至少70%以上？"],["薛部長富盛：據我瞭解比例好像很高。"],["劉委員建國：次長你要不要回應一下？部長有沒有講錯？慎重喔！"],["林次長全能：我想碳費徵收有它的機制我不是很清楚，不過台電的發電並不是台電自己用，是提供給需求產業來使用，所以這塊有一個機制會去扣除。"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["林次長全能：台電發的電90%以上大概都提出去這樣的一個……"],["劉委員建國：環境部部長已經講了大致上可以扣除70%左右嘛？你經濟部的次長沒辦法講大致上精準的數字是多少？"],["林次長全能：我說90%以上都是提供給下游的需求使用，如果……"],["劉委員建國：所以環境部長講70%，你講90%，是這樣？"],["林次長全能：90%以上。"],["劉委員建國：90%以上？"],["林次長全能：對。"],["劉委員建國：所以我如果初步算起來586億，如果依照你的算法，如果以300塊來計算就是繳58億嘛，是不是這樣講？90%以上嘛？你的以上到多少？到99%算90%以上啊！到100%也是90%以上啊！人家部長講的比較精準是70%啦！不管他的數據正確與否嘛，對不對？他講70%，你講90%，所以如果照你的講法，台電還是必須要繳納碳費，如果依照一噸300塊來計算，就58億嘛？如果照部長講的就是要100多億嘛，是不是這樣嘛？"],["林次長全能：我想碳費要徵收多少我們現在不清楚，如果……"],["劉委員建國：我就說粗估以300元計算，我是用這樣來算。"],["林次長全能：按照機制的話，台電自己使用用電的話可能就必須接受碳費的徵收。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！就是說萬一明年開始起徵，如果照你的算法就是有10%必須要繳納，碳費可能就要五十八億多嘛？這個再增加部分是不是要再轉嫁到電費上？"],["林次長全能：電費的成本如果有涵蓋這一塊的話，它就必須在電費的公式裡面跟審議機制裡面去做後續的處理，就像委員所講，它可能就會反映出來。"],["劉委員建國：我的時間到了，你又反映出來，這幾天才要再調漲電費，現在又講到碳費的部分，然後到時候又要再反映在電價上，台電就只有一件事情在做而已，就是電費調漲不漲這件事情，其他的事情都沒辦法做了，政府不是這樣啦！不對啦！次長，你如果這樣子，臺灣社會沒辦法接受這件事情……"],["林次長全能：我想因為委員……我知道台電不只是做這個事情……"],["劉委員建國：部長在回答我的時候我都很尊重讓部長講完，你就很單純地回答我幾句話，該漲就漲，不然要怎麼辦，你的意思是這樣？"],["林次長全能：不是這樣的，我是說台電本身不是只在做電價的審議而已，台電本身負擔很多的任務，第一個，穩定供電，第二個，它當然也要去做降低排放二氧化碳的工作，這是台電本身要做的一個核心工作……"],["劉委員建國：我沒有否定台電的責任啦！社會責任、對於這個國家的責任我沒有否定過，但是我從電費的角度去思考、去跟你討論，不是只有漲不漲的問題而已嘛？"],["林次長全能：是，所以電價在審議的時候會考量不同的因素，剛剛有跟委員報告，委員會在電價審議會裡面考量不同的因素，比如說它是不是要照顧弱勢、它是不是要兼顧節能減碳，它是不是要反映成本，另外一個部分是要不要去處理物價的情形，這都是在電價審議會要考量的一個因素。"],["劉委員建國：好，我時間到了，我最後要求次長，我們剛才討論的那個議題，到底明年起徵之後台電須繳納多少的碳費，然後你們繳納碳費的因應之道是什麼，是不是可以給我們做一個參考？"],["林次長全能：我想我們可以來提供給委員做更進一步的……"],["劉委員建國：如果你的因應之道是轉嫁到電費，那當然就不用給我了啦！一個禮拜內，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員的質詢。","接下來我們請張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員不在。","羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋，羅廷瑋委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","我們請張啓楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":404,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-7","speakers":["王育敏","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","涂權吉","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","王正旭","鍾佳濱","王鴻薇","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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有人覺得碳會剛開始如果不超過不應該超過一百元當然也有人主張說要從五百元開始嘛變成能調高至每噸講到幾千塊了啦"},{"start":84.924,"end":110.717,"text":"但是因為最主要我是看到部長在經濟日報的專訪在去年的時候然後認為這個每噸的碳會高於10美元就是將近300出的台幣是必然是必然然後且未來將朝向漸進式的方式來調高方向來調高這是部長講的嘛所以部長你認為"},{"start":113.707,"end":134.584,"text":"給劉委員報告 事實上因為這是公開講的 要喊價是很容易喊大家就喊多少多少但是事實上站在行政部門的角度我們要衡量的因素說真的是蠻多的我們不是要受碳費當作我們主要目標事實上我們的主要目標是淨零"},{"start":135.845,"end":162.111,"text":"的這個大目標希望台灣能夠跟上國際的腳步在2030、2050順利達標所以這個才是我們大家很清楚就是說環境部的角度是能夠達到實質減碳碳費只是我們應用的一個工具那至於到底要多少錢當初我們是根據我們委託中華經濟研究院他幫我們做評估他們覺得以當時評估"},{"start":165.732,"end":184.28,"text":"兩年前的這個看法是說大概10美元事實上是可以的一個情況但是這兩年來我想國際環境各方面變化也很大我覺得環境部也有責任去考量整個國際的情勢以及國內產業的發展"},{"start":186.702,"end":209.019,"text":"我希望大家有這種共識我希望部長講清楚一點但是也不是要讓部長現在馬上答覆說要多少錢所以部長不用這麼緊張好不好講太多了啦因為去年也是接受經濟日報的這個專訪說出這樣的一個方向嘛那因為如果一直掀著不絕我是覺得有人會趁機花這種叫做恐慌財啦"},{"start":211.241,"end":227.832,"text":"因為一百到五百字之間一直有人在講對不對那你會造成這個整個產業界的也會恐慌所以我才覺得說臺灣在這個一百人到五百人之間的焦灼那歐盟在去年10月已經開始實施探邊境的調整機制CBM然後2023年10月事情上路"},{"start":235.216,"end":257.702,"text":"當時僅要求進口商提交探險數據,尚不需繳納憑證的費用。2026年互惠制度開始正式實施,初期涵蓋五大產業。2027年對整個執行的全面評估,尤其對低度開花國家的影響。2034年就要全面施行,擴大到所有的其他產業。"},{"start":259.122,"end":267.276,"text":"這是他們的規劃你這個步驟都已經非常清楚的出來所以我在想說如果照歐盟的這樣的一個"},{"start":268.467,"end":281.614,"text":"但邊境的調整機制要求產品在原出產國就進行檢探及支付相關碳匯但這個原產國如果沒有減少碳板或支付足夠的碳匯就必須在進口時被課稅所以根據經濟部的統計"},{"start":289.799,"end":297.725,"text":"管制水泥、電力、肥料、鋼鐵、鋁等248項的產品其中臺灣就已經包含了212項了這比例非常高這貓親了也高達245億左右所以如果我們臺灣在2026年前沒有辦法讓碳匯與歐盟這個機制做一個一定的對接我們會付出慘痛的代價"},{"start":315.05,"end":331.2,"text":"給委員報告事實上西邊跟我們收集碳費事實上在某一個程度它有重疊的部分但是事實上它是各自這個運行在做不是說我們現在台灣要針對排碳量"},{"start":332.46,"end":350.053,"text":"提供2.5萬噸來收集碳費,那就可以跟西本一樣,不一樣。西本事實上從去年10月份開始要求進口到歐洲根據剛剛劉文講的這五大事實上是六大產業裡面的產品他要去爆碳足跡"},{"start":350.874,"end":367.72,"text":"可是根據第一季他們所呈現出來才10%去報因為對歐盟以及進口商他們很多也是剛剛第一次才執行那我再跟委員報告一件事情本來去年美國要推CCA就清潔競爭法案事實上到現在都沒有"},{"start":368.52,"end":390.334,"text":"所以我們當然朝著我們目標在前進但是台灣也有台灣人的腳步那也請委員來支持環境部絕對會積極來做這一塊但是他不必然跟CBAN完全扣合在一起特別是CBAN他本來去年底想要把一些執行細則公布出來結果也沒有公布"},{"start":390.974,"end":405.066,"text":"所以這個是一個非常複雜的問題那我也知道國內到處很多名嘴都在講很多這些東西有些在這邊真的是告訴大家有些是逝世而回並不是真正的情況"},{"start":406.067,"end":427.629,"text":"我們跟經濟部事實上是一直有在次長期的密切在溝通在聯繫這一個委員可以給我們一些指導我把這個問題點出來啦我覺得這個相當複雜啦對 沒錯 也許很多都是要即將實施還是準備要實施那不一定完全去match但是那個基本上的"},{"start":428.99,"end":448.577,"text":"的對接的範疇我想那個基礎還是要然後對廠家的溝通我知道部還屬施都有在包含經濟部包含環境部都有在做但可能要再提高那個比例我相信因為在"},{"start":449.477,"end":449.597,"text":"對每年"},{"start":477.051,"end":498.736,"text":"但是西邊要繳交碳費那個很多很可能是中小企業他事實上在台灣是不用繳碳費的還沒有到那個階段因為我們現在門檻是2.5萬對所以很多人就把這兩個完全掛鉤覺得相等只要繳碳費到那邊就怎麼樣事實上不一樣所以經濟部現在才一直很積極努力來協助中小企業特別受西邊影響的這些企業"},{"start":499.856,"end":515.34,"text":"對所以我這邊要特別提醒甚至要求說環境部還經濟部可能相關的這些的說明會讓廠家可以對更加清楚的可能要再要再強化啦甚至比例要再提高好我們很來努力我們的時間被部長講到三分之二了抱歉抱歉講太多了"},{"start":518.782,"end":527.146,"text":"這個...這個碳匯議題我想不只造這個產業界的恐慌可能連一般百姓都會恐慌那經濟部明天又要來召開這個電價匯率的審議部長還有次長林志明天會決定了嗎?"},{"start":535.189,"end":555.67,"text":"謝謝委員我想那個電價審議會有它的運作機制當然明天會決定整個電價審議的那個結果出來是阿所以跟部長一樣都是尊重阿對啦對啦因為電價審議有它的運作機制啦當然我知道啦這個調整電會就是跟民生息息相關嘛我們都很清楚我回過頭來現在討論台電"},{"start":558.032,"end":582.869,"text":"2023年當年就虧了1985億那累積已經達到3820億預估今年可能還在虧1850億以上甚至不會以下絕對要以上為什麼因為我把一些東西先省略掉時間的問題我在環境部試驗溫室氣體排放量的資訊平台把台電的失業體這個碳排資料調出來我是初算一下2022年台電大約碳排1.9億公噸"},{"start":588.032,"end":598.297,"text":"如果照部長接受經濟日報的這樣的一個訪問的回應一噸300元來計算台電在2022年就要繳大約586億新台幣我跟委員報告一下喔台電他發的電很多是賣出去的賣出去那一塊事實上是不用好沒關係來部長你就講這個要講那個部分可以扣掉多少"},{"start":617.125,"end":619.747,"text":"臺電發的電90%以上大概都提出去這樣的一個時代"},{"start":645.644,"end":659.352,"text":"對阿環境部部長已經講了說大致上可以扣除70%左右嘛那你經濟部的次長你沒辦法講大致上精準的數字是多少我說90%以上都是提供給下游的他的一個需求使用所以環境部長講70%你講10%就對欸90%是這樣"},{"start":664.075,"end":675.206,"text":"90以上對90以上對所以我如果粗估算起來586等於是如果依照你的算法可能就是要繳如果以300塊來計算就是繳18億嘛是不是這樣講300就1.9億喔對1.9億他90以上啊"},{"start":682.347,"end":706.414,"text":"就是以上嗎?你的以上到多少?到99算90以上啊?到140 90以上啊?人家部長講的比較精準是70啊。不管他的數據正確與否嘛。對不對?他就講70。啊你講90。對。所以如果照你的講法就是說這個臺電他必須還是要繳那攤位依照一噸300塊來計算。對。他就是58億嘛。如果照部長講的就是要100多億嘛。是不是這樣嘛?"},{"start":707.794,"end":735.823,"text":"我想這個碳會要徵收多少我們現在不清楚嘛齁那如果以 我就說粗估以300元計算我是用這樣來算嘛 齁那按照機制的話我想台電他自己使用用電的話他可能就必須去接受那個這個碳會的徵收這樣對嘛啊就是說碳會徵收萬一明年開始起徵嘛然後就是如果照你的算法就是說有10%可能就必須要來講到這個碳率就是58億多嘛嘿啊這個再增加的部分是不是要再轉嫁電費上"},{"start":739.246,"end":764.443,"text":"電匯的成本如果有涵蓋這一塊的話他就必須在電匯的這個公視裡面跟審議機制裡面去做後續的處理那也就像我所講他可能都會反映出來這樣子我的時間到了啦對你又反映出來這幾天才要再調漲電匯現在又講到碳匯的部分然後到時候又要再反映在電廈上台電就只有一件事情在做而已就是電匯調漲不漲這個事情其他的事情都沒辦法做了政府不是這樣啦不對啦"},{"start":771.612,"end":786.818,"text":"處長,你如果這樣,台灣社會是不知道接受這件事的。你跟部長再回答我,我都很尊重的讓部長盡量講完。那你就很單純的回答我幾句話就是,改起就起啊,不然怎麼辦?你就是這樣啊。"},{"start":788.038,"end":813.545,"text":"不是這樣的我是說臺電他本身不是只是在做電價的審議而已臺電本身他負擔很多的一個這個任務第一個穩定供電第二個他當然也要去做這個降低排放這個二氧化碳的工作這是臺電本身要做的一個核心的工作臺電的責任社會責任對這個國家的責任我沒有否定過但是我從電匯的角度去思考嘛去跟你討論嘛不是只有長不長的問題而已嘛"},{"start":815.956,"end":826.303,"text":"是所以電價的審理的時候他會考量不同的一個這個因素我剛剛有跟委員報告委員會在這個電價審議會裡面就考量不同的因素比如說他是不是要照顧弱勢他是不是要"},{"start":827.393,"end":847.085,"text":"堅固節能減碳他是不是要反映成本另外一個部分是不是要去處理這個所謂的一個物價的情形這都是在電價審議會要考量的一個因素這樣子好我時間到了我最後去要求社長好不好我們剛才討論的那個議題到底明年啟政之後台電需繳納多少的碳匯"},{"start":848.286,"end":848.306,"text":"謝謝劉建國"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}