{"error":false,"id":["150262"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150262,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150262","日期":"2024-03-21","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-4","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":4,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-21T12:15:37+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-21T12:23:34+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:57","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/1be549810cdc3052722e6b34e8d69850e8dac5750a339bf8f8ba9b0039caa7a656a65096fc31f86f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:15:37 - 12:23:34","會議時間":"2024-03-21T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第4次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請經濟部部長就「當前供水情勢檢討及因應措施」進行報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司。(詢答)）","gazette":{"lineno":1162,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時15分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長還有水利署署長。"],["主席：我們請兩位，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，署長好。接下來的問題部長要回答、署長要回答都可以，沒有關係，我們就事論事來談。國家要建設，大家都支持，但我向來的原則是國家的建設不可以成為特定權貴牟利的工具，我為什麼這樣講？曾文水庫當初淤泥，說要抽泥，大家都支持，蘇貞昌院長那個時候還跑下去關心，但這個案子上一屆有立法委員開始追，離譜到什麼程度？你們那個時候招標，給英系大樁腳蔡清旭每一噸65.5元，結果他馬上全部轉包出去，一噸40塊。他從政府這邊拿錢，一噸65.5，他轉包出去，一噸40，我算了一下，這樣子轉手，空手套白狼，利率、賺的錢高達40%！高達40%！檢舉完了以後，經濟部水利署去年說將刊登採購公報，要沒收履約保證金，是不是可以請教一下，現在進度如何？"],["賴署長建信：跟委員說明，我們所有的採購是針對政府採購法公開採購，我們並沒有針對特定的對象給予特定的待遇，這是第一個。第二個，你剛剛所提的部分，履約保證金現在還有留存在我們這邊、沒有發送給廠商的將近2,600萬左右。"],["黃委員國昌：結果他這樣轉手……我先問一個，你們事後有沒有檢討？為什麼你們一開始的時候一噸65.5，他有辦法一噸40塊轉包出去，中間空手套白狼賺那麼多？"],["賴署長建信：基本上我們把所有的招標紀錄調印過來，包括這個標之前的，因為每一個水庫的清理作業原本不一樣。至於這個案子基本上……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們當初一噸65.5，事後檢討認為會不會太高？"],["賴署長建信：今年我們新的標案並不是這個廠商得標，他的得標標底還是比這個還高。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我說每一件事情發生，我們總是要冷靜下來看過去發生什麼事，如果有發生什麼錯誤，以後不要再犯。我從頭到尾沒有說你水利署去特定圖利什麼人，我剛剛從頭到尾都沒有這樣講喔！我只有說我不贊成讓特定的權貴可以上下其手，這樣子轉了一手，暴利高達1.3億耶！看在一般上班族的眼裡，看得是目瞪口呆啊！所以我現在請教的第一個問題很具體，這個案子你們回溯過去看，你們有沒有去檢討為什麼當初一噸要給他65.5元，為什麼他一噸40元就可以做？結果搞了半天，他空手套白狼以後，利率40%以上，這是我的問題，署長，你聽得懂嗎？"],["賴署長建信：聽得懂，基本上我們有廉政平台，第二個部分，在整個採購的過程裡面，他的得標是65塊，他不當分包出去，分包內容怎樣……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有啦！他也沒有不斷分包出去，我全部都查出來了，他分包出去的架構就是這樣，給三家公司：晉立、晉昌、晉誠，這三家公司事實上是同一批人在開的，他沒有不斷分包出去，他只有轉一手。"],["賴署長建信：他沒有跟我們講。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！所以我現在的問題……"],["賴署長建信：它沒有依照合約來執行。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在的問題很具體，你回溯過去看，你會不會覺得很奇怪？你們一噸給他65.5元，他轉包出去一噸40元就可以做，我剛剛的問題很簡單，只有說你們有沒有回去檢討過，當初這一個價格的訂定是不是合理？只有這樣而已。"],["賴署長建信：我們價格訂定還有包括抽泥船、還有包括勞務的部分，他現在分包出去純粹是勞務的部分，至於船體的部分還有其他的成本，至於其他的水庫清淤單價的部分，事實上條件不同，還比他更高的所在多有。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係。第二個部分，履約保證金現在沒有沒收的有多少錢？"],["賴署長建信：我們現在留存的差不多是2,600萬。"],["黃委員國昌：退了多少錢？"],["賴署長建信：應該是退了3期左右。"],["黃委員國昌：退了3期大概多少錢？"],["賴署長建信：大概是差不多……我們再查一下，應該我記得現在是最後1期了……"],["黃委員國昌：有沒有考慮依照政府採購法的規定，退回的追繳回來？"],["賴署長建信：我們本來就是依照政府採購法的規定，要求它……"],["黃委員國昌：對，沒有還給他的先扣著，這我知道，剛剛署長說兩千多萬嘛！"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["黃委員國昌：已經退還給他的，有沒有考慮依照政府採購法的部分追繳回來？這是我的問題。"],["賴署長建信：第一個，我們把它提報為不良廠商啦！"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個不是我的問題，這個我瞭解。"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我的意思是發還的履約保證金，有沒有考慮把它追繳回來？這是我的問題。"],["賴署長建信：一旦工程會確定的話，我們會依照契約來執行。"],["黃委員國昌：對，依照契約來執行，有發還回去的，要不要追繳回來？"],["賴署長建信：過去有履約的部分，當然依照契約來執行，現在留存在我們這邊的部分，當然在實際上就扣抵，我們現在……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你已經發還的部分，沒有要把它追繳回來？這個是我的問題啦！"],["賴署長建信：不是……"],["黃委員國昌：依照政府採購法第三十一條第二項第七款，是可以把它追繳回來的，現在我的問題很簡單，你扣著的部分當然不可以還給他嘛！你已經退給他的部分有沒有要追繳回來？我的問題沒有很複雜啦、也沒有很困難。"],["賴署長建信：我知道，委員，廠商已經履約的部分，我們必須要把履約保證金退回給他，如果是還沒有履約的部分，我們就要扣抵留存起來，它違約的部分，我們就是依照現在所留存下來的履約保證金去做一個扣抵。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是說，已經還給他的部分沒有要依照政府採購法第三十一條第二項第七款追繳回來嗎？這個就是我的問題，剛剛你繞了半天還是沒有回答我的問題。"],["賴署長建信：我剛剛有說明，它契約有履行的部分，我們當然依照契約的規定去給付他的價金，包括相關的履保。"],["黃委員國昌：我再說一次啦！面對這樣子的行為，我看不下去，社會大眾看不看得下去，大家心裡都有一把尺，我對於經濟部只有一個很簡單的要求，依法行政，依約該主張的權利就主張權利，只有這樣子而已，所以我也建議署長回去再考慮一下，對於這種惡質的廠商！這種惡質的廠商轉手大撈1.3億，然後扣他兩千多萬的履約保證金，從政府的觀點來講，這樣是不是真的在確保整個採購程序的公正性？署長可以承諾嗎？"],["賴署長建信：我們承諾依法行政、依約處理。"],["黃委員國昌：OK！好。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來我們請王鴻薇委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":236,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-4","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","陳亭妃","謝衣鳯","張啓楷","鄭天財Sra 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