{"error":false,"id":["150294"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150294,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150294","日期":"2024-03-22","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-22T15:33:50+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-22T15:49:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:35","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/7c8e4f03b048d09e451b47777d567f09fd9d093a04e30914f8ba9b0039caa7a6a07f1916115776545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"15:33:50 - 15:49:25","會議時間":"2024-03-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":312,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（15時33分）韓院長，我請陳建仁院長。"],["主席：再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：葉委員午安。"],["葉委員元之：院長好。今天早上賴清德副總統去參觀無人機國家隊，看到我們有一個無人機可以搭載輕用的、比較小型的飛彈，但是看到螺旋槳的馬達是Made in China，院長知道這個事嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我知道，不過這個不用大驚小怪……"],["葉委員元之：院長覺得可以嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：因為它還在測試的過程當中，而且那一種螺旋槳（propeller）現在都有國產的部分……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，測試的階段……"],["陳院長建仁：所以我們已經……"],["葉委員元之：臺灣做不出這個馬達嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，可以做出來，但是初期的產量不大……"],["葉委員元之：可以做出來為什麼不用臺灣做的？"],["陳院長建仁：現在已經做得出來了。"],["葉委員元之：做出來了為什麼要用Made in China？"],["陳院長建仁：它是最早期測試它自己裝的。這個沒有什麼，不值得大驚小怪啦……"],["葉委員元之：因為這個是無人機國家隊，如果說您的態度是這樣，難怪廠商會這樣嘛！理論上來講……"],["陳院長建仁：不是，我們不是這樣講。"],["葉委員元之：民進黨政府一直宣傳中國大陸的東西很可怕，有資安問題，然後再一大堆有的沒的……"],["陳院長建仁：確實啊！"],["葉委員元之：現在我們的馬達居然跟他們買！第一個扶植他們的產業，然後第二個我們也做得出來，為什麼不自己做？為什麼不用自己的……"],["陳院長建仁：有啊！現在已經可以自己做了。"],["葉委員元之：第三、網路上已經酸：「對啦！這個叫做中國國家無人機啦！」好不好？有臺灣的東西……"],["陳院長建仁：這樣酸來酸去，國家的無人機沒有辦法發展……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼會酸，是因為你沒做好才會被酸……"],["陳院長建仁：我想不需要這樣說話……"],["葉委員元之：院長，如果說你還是這樣的態度，其實這個東西，你的回答很簡單，你只要講「我們會要求廠商，以後馬達也要用臺灣的」就好了，但你的態度是無所謂，那我反而會比較緊張，未來會出現一連串這個狀況，就是我們軍用的東西都會用到大陸的東西，因為都是測試階段，那未來就是兩岸一起發展軍事產業了……"],["陳院長建仁：這樣酸言酸語沒有意思啦……"],["葉委員元之：但是這個只是因為網路的話題，我跟你問一下。","接下來我來問一下大家關心的詐騙的議題，有一個名人叫做謝金河，他在抱怨，在臉書上或者是在YT都會看到有人冒用他的名字成立投資社，騙大家加入投資社被詐騙，部長，您知道嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：知道。"],["葉委員元之：右邊這是我自己看到的，所以有看到我的YT「葉元之·原汁原味」，我在我的YT看到的，現在我覺得這個事情比較離譜的是，謝金河說他自己去跟臉書檢舉或平台檢舉，臉書是不理他的，除了不理他之外，謝金河還說他有跟打詐小組連線過，結果居然沒作用！這個我就不問院長了，我問部長，部長，他有跟你們聯絡過嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：這個打詐小組應該是165，不過回答委員的問題，我們現在在推動電子簽章法的修法，只要立法院三讀通過，我們就有法律依據……"],["葉委員元之：不要扯電子簽章法……"],["唐部長鳳：讓他上架之前，如果……"],["葉委員元之：我現在就問你，他有沒有跟你聯絡？"],["唐部長鳳：那個是165那邊，但我們在推動……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，有沒有聯絡嘛？你回答不出來就叫別人回答嘛！有沒有聯絡嘛？"],["唐部長鳳：就不能刊謝金河的廣告。"],["陳院長建仁：委員，你講話……"],["葉委員元之：院長，我的問題很簡單，就是他如果有跟打詐小組聯絡，但是他說沒有作用，這句話是讓我覺得比較訝異，就是說一般的民眾包括謝金河是名人喔……"],["陳院長建仁：不是沒有作用，他講作用似乎不大，不要擴大他講的話。"],["葉委員元之：院長，我跟你講我們在討論事情，因為他是一個名人……"],["陳院長建仁：他有……"],["葉委員元之：院長，等一下！等一下！不用緊張，我都還沒有開始講……"],["陳院長建仁：好，你要我講的時候你再說。"],["葉委員元之：我的意思是他是個名人，他去檢舉，第一、平台不理他，第二、他跟打詐小組聯絡，他都說作用不大，那一般小老百姓去聯繫打詐小組，可能打詐小組更不會理了。我現在想要問部長，我就問唐鳳部長，如果有人跟數發部反映，他在網路上被冒名，被認為有詐騙的行為，找數發部，數發部能不能幫一般民眾去跟平台講說這個是詐騙，請你趕快下架，能夠做到嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：本來就有啊！"],["唐部長鳳：我們有幫忙165建立一個165往臉書或Google……"],["葉委員元之：他會不會理你？"],["唐部長鳳：通常現在兩個小時之內就會移下來，問題是移下來的時候，他換一個帳號又登上來。"],["葉委員元之：所以你跟他講，兩個小時他就移掉？"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！"],["唐部長鳳：通常是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼他說作用不大？"],["唐部長鳳：他所謂的作用不大就是他換個人頭的名字又po一個。"],["葉委員元之：確定嗎？"],["唐部長鳳：我滿確定的。"],["葉委員元之：確定，所以，我覺得第一個，因為過去我們的服務團隊也有跟數發部聯繫過，是幫一般的民眾請數發部去檢舉，當時得到的消息是，他們只能處理名人的部分，一般民眾不可能處理……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有這回事。"],["唐部長鳳：165檢舉……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，你就在這邊宣布，以後大家只要看到網路上有冒名投資或什麼，請跟數發部或打詐小組聯繫，兩個小時就會消失，好不好？"],["唐部長鳳：就是165這個網站，按檢舉就可以了。"],["葉委員元之：對，你就承諾嘛！我相信你可以解決很多問題啦。","再來就是說……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我講一下，不能夠解決很多問題，原因在哪裡？剛才你沒有注意聽，唐鳳部長講得很清楚，他現在下架的是這一個帳號，可是詐騙集團馬上利用其他的帳號上來……"],["葉委員元之：我知道！我知道……"],["陳院長建仁：所以你要一個一個檢舉……"],["葉委員元之：但是有比沒有好嘛！你也要增加他的困難度……"],["陳院長建仁：對啊！對啊！有啊！現在是有。"],["葉委員元之：不要讓他一個帳號一直在使用嘛！很多人就認為作用不大，那也就懶得講了。現在你就宣示，只要跟數發部說，數發部有這個決心好好去處理，當然大家檢舉的就多了嘛！我覺得一定有作用啦！而且我是建議數發部……"],["陳院長建仁：委員，這個效果不大啦！我們現在……"],["葉委員元之：效果不大還是要做啦！部長、院長……"],["陳院長建仁：不，我們說的是……"],["葉委員元之：如果每個事情……"],["陳院長建仁：更有效果的方法就是源頭管理……"],["葉委員元之：都要做啦……"],["陳院長建仁：源頭管理就是電子簽章法，需要電子簽章法在大院……"],["葉委員元之：都要做……"],["陳院長建仁：趕快讓它通過。"],["葉委員元之：都要做……"],["陳院長建仁：電子簽章法更有效。"],["葉委員元之：你要做電子簽章法，你也要平臺同意跟你合作嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：當然。"],["葉委員元之：它不理你的話，你也沒辦法，所以這個聯繫一定要做。我覺得你以後只要有人檢舉就趕快去做，也可以測試它一下看有沒有誠意，好不好？","接下來，我要問另外的也是詐騙，但是跟NCC比較有關係，這個應該也是系統的問題。去年有委員講如果警察接收到報案，有人被詐騙，他要去凍結那個警示帳戶的時候都是用傳真的嘛！而警察傳真到金融機構會衍生很多問題，比如卡紙，比如他傳真用手寫的，萬一寫錯的話會有別的帳戶被凍結。或者是銀行端收到傳真紙，有時候回撥警局找不到人，有很多問題，那就會錯失打詐的第一時間。我不知道這個院長後來有解決嗎？這是去年5月的時候有委員提出來的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員回答一下，這個基本上是金管會跟內政部刑事警察局這邊我們的聯繫工作，我們打詐是聯防，每個部會、每個階段都有不同的機關去聯防。"],["葉委員元之：對，沒關係，你如果不知道就說不知道，好不好？你不知道嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為這是細節的部分……"],["葉委員元之：因為不是你啦！你是NCC，不是你。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：嗯。"],["葉委員元之：那院長知道嗎？因為這個東西當時警察一直在抱怨，就是他們用傳真，其實時間上也耽擱了，有的時候就是傳過去隔了好幾個小時之後銀行才收到，所以這幾個小時內錢就被領走了。我不知道這個改善了沒？"],["陳院長建仁：這個有沒有改，是不是這個個案，委員，我不清楚，但是去年我們在銀行阻詐的部分，就阻詐金額就到了七十幾億的錢……"],["葉委員元之：沒有啦！院長，我們就事論事……"],["陳院長建仁：讓它不會被領走。"],["葉委員元之：我都點問題出來了……"],["陳院長建仁：不，這個問題就是說……"],["葉委員元之：你都在做政令宣導！我的問題就是這個問題解決了沒嘛……"],["陳院長建仁：你現在不想聽我的成果在哪裡……"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係，院長你不知道嘛？"],["陳院長建仁：我……"],["葉委員元之：那我跟你講，其實現在警政署有開發一個系統叫「警示帳戶聯防通報子系統」，這個系統就在於，警局以後就不要用傳真了，你們就輸入那個系統就好，這樣就直接連線。有這個系統，我也跟院長講一下，在你的院下面的部會有這個系統存在。但是我現在要告訴你，這個系統也是很爛，為什麼？因為登打系統完成之後、系統輸入，還是要傳真啦！這個是我最新調到的它的通報流程，還是要傳真！所以搞到警察跟金融人員更麻煩！更麻煩，要做兩次工。","今天為什麼我會在這個地方提出來，因為唐鳳部長、IT大臣，這個這麼厲害的網路神人，你應該發揮你的功能……"],["唐部長鳳：是。"],["葉委員元之：幫這些機關做系統……"],["唐部長鳳：那個……"],["葉委員元之：好不好？不要弄一些點、線、面的，這是給你的期許……"],["唐部長鳳：電子文件……"],["葉委員元之：好，謝謝……"],["唐部長鳳：電子文件跟送達及數位簽章，也是在電子簽章法……"],["葉委員元之：因為我今天時間比較有限，下一頁。"],["唐部長鳳：也是要電子簽章法通過。"],["陳院長建仁：你沒有給他講話的機會。"],["葉委員元之：你講一講就是電子簽章法，我講的問題那麼具體，你都是回電子簽章法……"],["唐部長鳳：您剛剛講的就是電子文件跟送達的效力問題。"],["葉委員元之：這是文不對題嘛！再來，詐騙跟電信有關，我們來看二類電信，二類電信最主要是什麼問題？我想問一下，主委，現在二類電信一般是可以跟我們一類電信租到多少門號？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：現在沒有二類電信這個名詞，因為我們電信法落日以後，現在的電信管理法，MVNO這個部分是採所謂自願登記的方法，我們要區分大概是個人申請還是企業客戶，是這樣子處理。"],["葉委員元之：那可以申請多少門號？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：門號，比如企業客戶，原則上是依照我們的指引，以它有多少員工就有員工的……"],["葉委員元之：那現在海峽電信一次可以申請幾十萬門號的狀況已經沒有了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為那是以前發生的事，現在我們落實……"],["葉委員元之：現在已經沒有了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們現在落實KYC的這種情況來講，現在不會出現海峽電信的問題。"],["葉委員元之：對，我是說一次可以跟一類電信租多少門號，一般的企業可以租多少？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：一般企業，比如你的企業裡面只有50個人，原則上大概是這樣的門號去處理嘛！那如果你要……"],["葉委員元之：所以不會再出現……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果你要更多的……"],["葉委員元之：過去……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個時候就要落實KYC去處理，就是為什麼需要這麼多門號。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，但現在還是有類似的，12家電信公司嘛！這是在你們網站上看到的，不然這些不是第二類電信喔？這是你NCC的網站耶！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個到112年6月，就是這整個……"],["葉委員元之：所以後來……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為它如果沒有……"],["葉委員元之：這12家現在已經沒有了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有來登記的就變成所謂MVNO業者，如果沒來登記就是一般的企業用戶。"],["葉委員元之：對，好，那我就針對這幾家業者嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["葉委員元之：所以他們還是可以跟一類電信租門號？可以租到50萬戶嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：它用企業客戶的名稱，可以跟中華電信等等這些租門號。"],["葉委員元之：對啦，我的問題是這樣，它跟一類電信業者租了50萬份門號，然後它再分租出去。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那是以前了，現在不可能……"],["葉委員元之：現在不能分租了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，現在不可能有50萬門號這種程度。"],["葉委員元之：那它能不能分租出去？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果以企業客戶來講，比如說有些東西它可以批……"],["葉委員元之：它可以批出去嘛！我跟你講一個檢察官現在抱怨的東西，主委，我認為你應該去修正一下。比如說，他分租出去1,000個門號，那1,000個門號裡面可能有100個門號已經被舉報為詐騙門號了，你覺得這個業者會不會主動把剩下那900個門號直接停掉？會不會？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我們這個時候就要停，比如說依照KYC……"],["葉委員元之：會不會？"],["陳院長建仁：你聽他講。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果電信這樣的話，我們會要求電信，你的企業客戶出現異常，你應該把它停止，而且要把門號收回。"],["葉委員元之：問題是現在就沒有嘛！你有要求，現在就沒有嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們現在落實KYC就是這樣的處理方法。"],["葉委員元之：有落實，但是就是沒有，所以詐騙才會那麼多。我現在是把問題講給你們聽，我覺得我們跟你們詢答很累，我都把問題跟你們講，但你們都好像覺得說很怕被挑戰，所以就要一直解釋一些文不對題的東西。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是、不是，我們是解釋說我們的做法……"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係啦！NCC主委，請教一下，今天中天是不是又再次勝訴了，對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，那是一個再審的問題而已，那個本來就……"],["葉委員元之：再審嘛！所以在那一審勝訴了嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，那是同一個案子……"],["葉委員元之：主委，你一直說你NCC有14次勝訴，對吧？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！沒錯。"],["葉委員元之：然後中天只有2次勝訴。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有錯啊！"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，14次勝訴是不是包括很多你裁罰出去而中天沒有訴訟的部分？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊！所以我們說……"],["葉委員元之：這個也算勝訴？拜託！主委，什麼叫勝訴……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：表示說當事人……"],["葉委員元之：勝訴是說，我跟你……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們新聞稿是寫，勝訴後處分確定。"],["葉委員元之：主委，等一下，勝訴的意思是，如果說我去訴訟了，你跟我打官司，你贏了，這叫勝訴嘛！還有說你裁罰我，我不去打官司，然後你說你勝訴，那你每一次開出去的裁決單都是一次勝訴，這太離譜了啦……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，這26件，這是中天一直在……"],["葉委員元之：你們不要用話術……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有，話術是中天自己說，這才是話術……"],["葉委員元之：實際上你們在打官司，不管是有沒有確定，在好幾審，你們就是一直連敗……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，26個案件裡面，我們是14件勝訴，這是確定的」，它只勝2件而已啦……"],["葉委員元之：而且主委，我問你另外一件事情……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：話術是媒體自己講的，成敗就是以確定為準。"],["葉委員元之：最新的，前兩天是不是有一個鳳凰雲？你們又敗訴了，在那一庭。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有、沒有！那是再審的問題……"],["葉委員元之：那一庭是不是又敗訴了？又敗訴了嘛！你那一庭又敗訴了……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，你不瞭解訴訟程序，訴訟成敗就是以確定為準。"],["葉委員元之：那是確定，我現在講的是進行中的……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：訴訟就是這樣，你可以去法院問，訴訟程序就是以確定為準。"],["葉委員元之：我現在講的是進行中的。不要再耽誤了啦！訴訟費是你出嗎？如果那一庭是你出的話……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那一個案件我們確定輸，沒有錯啊！那是拆成兩個案子……"],["葉委員元之：你每一庭都是納稅人出錢啦！而且我跟你請教，鳳凰雲那個事情，你今天早上跟記者說，那個是前朝的事。你有這樣講嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有前朝的事，那是記者講……"],["葉委員元之：你沒有說是前朝的事？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我說那是以前我們委員會做成的決定嘛！"],["葉委員元之：你就說前朝的事情，你推給了前朝，但是每次上訴都是你的決定……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒說前朝的事情，那是記者自己的講法喔！委員，不是我講的話，不能塞在我嘴巴裡面喔！"],["葉委員元之：所以你沒有擔當嘛！你推給前朝，但是每次上訴都是你的決定。我請教一下，如果你推給……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有這個問題，我們說委員會本來就是合議制嘛！"],["葉委員元之：我不是跟你辯論。不好意思，主席，我沒有在跟他辯論。我已經讓你一直講了，但是我有問問題你再回答，好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以。"],["主席：時間暫停，葉委員元之，我幫你時間暫停，現在我們把時間暫停。","好，請繼續。"],["葉委員元之：鳳凰雲的部分，今天早上記者訪問你時，你是說那個是前朝的事，為什麼？因為當時……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有說前朝的事……"],["葉委員元之：等一下，我還沒有請你回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：你的用語我就不懂……"],["葉委員元之：等一下、等一下，等一下給你時間講，你再反駁嘛！那時候你講的是，因為那個東西是前面前朝的規定，為什麼你要推給前朝？因為當時的委員絕大多數是說不要裁罰，可是最後裁罰了，所以記者就問你說，怎麼會這樣？你說，那是前朝的決定。好，前朝的決定，代表說你也覺得有點理虧，所以你才會說是前朝的決定。請問一下，每一次每一庭敗訴之後，你要不要上訴是不是你的決定？是你的決定嘛！所以實際上你也認為鳳凰雲這個事情，如果是你的話，不管是前朝、現朝，你就是會這樣裁決啊！如果到時候輸的話，你要不要負責？因為現在NCC的問題是，你們一直在凹……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有在凹。"],["葉委員元之：明明就是每次一直輸、一直輸……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：什麼叫一直輸？如果輸，怎麼會案子……"],["葉委員元之：政府機關訴訟要輸很不容易啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦！我們基本上……"],["葉委員元之：你已經確定2件，很不容易了！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，二十幾個案子……"],["葉委員元之：主委，我跟你講啦！如果你打詐的決心有跟你關電視台的決心一樣那麼強的話，臺灣詐騙會少很多啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不予換照不是只有裁罰的問題而已啦！"],["葉委員元之：剛剛講到打詐的時候，就說我們已經做很好了……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，你到底瞭不瞭解這個案子？有沒有看過嘛？"],["葉委員元之：然後講到關電視台的時候，就講一大堆，說沒有，我們勝訴啊！好像關電視台關得理所當然。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是理所當然，是依法處理啦！"],["葉委員元之：理所當然。"],["主席：謝謝葉委員元之的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第16位徐委員巧芯質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":132,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","陳超明","涂權吉","顏寬恒","廖先翔","吳琪銘","吳沛憶","游顥","林倩綺","葉元之","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","陳亭妃","羅明才","賴瑞隆","郭國文","黃捷","楊曜","王美惠","魯明哲","賴惠員","林楚茵","王世堅"],"page_start":38,"meetingDate":["2024-03-22"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00002","1131401_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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China的?"},{"start":56.721,"end":64.691,"text":"這都是最早期測試他自己裝的阿,這是這個沒有什麼,這不值得大家對,因為沒有說您的態度會這樣,難怪廠商會這樣嘛,理論上來講,我們民進黨政府一直宣傳說中國大陸的東西很可怕,有資安問題,然後在一大堆有的沒的,"},{"start":75.525,"end":104.769,"text":"現在我們的馬達居然跟他們買第一個扶植他們的產業然後第二個我們也做得出來為什麼不自己做為什麼不用自己的第三這個網路上已經酸對啦這個叫做中國國家無人機啦好不好有台灣的東西這樣酸來酸去喔國家的無人機為什麼會酸是因為你沒做好才會被酸啊因為如果說你還是這樣的態度其實這個東西你的回答其實很簡單你只要講說我們會要求廠商以後馬達也要用台灣的其實就好了"},{"start":105.289,"end":131.576,"text":"那你的態度是說無所謂那我百分之百比較緊張未來會出現一連串這個狀況就是我們的軍用的東西都會用到大陸的東西因為都是測試階段那未來就是兩岸一起發展軍事產業了啦好不好那但是這個是因為網路的話題我跟你問一下來接下來我來問一下這個其他大家關心的這個詐騙的議題那有一個名人叫做謝金河"},{"start":132.416,"end":158.038,"text":"謝金河他在抱怨他說在他自己的臉書在臉書上或者是在YT什麼都會看到有人冒用他的名字就是說成立投資社然後然後就騙大家就加入投資社被詐騙嘛因為我看到那個部長也上來部長你已經知道嗎?知道就知道這個右邊這個是我自己看到的所以我看到我的YT葉元之、元之、元偉跳在我的YT看到"},{"start":158.82,"end":172.625,"text":"那現在我覺得這個事情比較離譜的是謝金河說他自己去跟臉書檢舉或平台檢舉臉書是不理他的那除了謝金河不理他之外我們可以看到謝金河說他有跟打詐小組連線過"},{"start":174.582,"end":177.404,"text":"這個打詐小組應該是165不過回答委員的問題我們現在在推動電子簽章法的修法只要立法院三度通過我們這個法律的依據"},{"start":191.857,"end":214.499,"text":"我現在就問你說有沒有跟你聯絡?有沒有跟你聯絡?那個是165那邊,但我們在推動是...沒關係有沒有聯絡嘛,那你回答不出來就叫別人回答嘛,有沒有聯絡嘛。就不能夠看謝金河的廣告。院長,我的問題很簡單喔,就是說他如果說有跟打詐小組聯絡,但是你們他說沒有作用,這個這句話是讓我覺得比較訝異的。就是說一般的民眾,包括謝金河都是名人喔。"},{"start":216.637,"end":230.229,"text":"他講的作用似乎不大不要擴大他講的院長我跟你講我們是討論事情因為他是一個名人他如果都覺得作用等一下等一下不用緊張還沒有開始講"},{"start":231.03,"end":232.551,"text":"我現在想要問部長,我就問唐鳳部長,請教一下"},{"start":251.957,"end":265.481,"text":"如果是有人跟速發部反映說他被冒名在網路上做被認為有詐騙行為,被冒名了,找速發部,速發部能不能幫我們的一般的民眾去跟平台講說你這個是詐騙請你趕快下架,能做到嗎?"},{"start":267.742,"end":295.847,"text":"我們有幫忙165建立一個165往臉書或是Google...他會不會理你?他會不會理你?通常現在兩個小時之內就會移下來,但是問題是移下來的時候他換一個帳號又登上來。所以你跟他講兩個小時他就移掉?對啊。通常是這樣。那為什麼他說作用不大?他所謂的作用不大就是他換個人頭的名字然後又PO一個。你沒有注意力嗎?我蠻確定的。確定?那所以我第一個我覺得第一個就是說因為過去我們也有我們服務團隊有跟蘇阿布聯繫過是幫一般的民眾"},{"start":297.18,"end":318.685,"text":"請蘇巴布去檢舉。那當時得到的消息是說,他們只能處理民員的部分,一般民眾的部分。沒關係,你就在這邊宣布,就是說以後大家只要看到網路上有冒名、投資或什麼,請跟蘇巴布或打造小組聯繫。兩個小時就會消失。就是165這個網站,按檢舉就可以了。你就說這個承諾嘛,我相信你可以解決很多問題啦。"},{"start":319.585,"end":346.887,"text":"然後再來就是說我講一下不能夠解決很多問題原因在哪裡就像剛才你剛才沒有注意聽唐鳳部長他講得很清楚他現在下架是這一個號碼帳號下架可是他馬上利用其他的帳號在上來所以你要一個一個檢舉有比沒有好嘛你也要增加他的可能度你不能讓他一個帳號一直在使用嘛那很多人就認為說喔作用不大那我也懶得講了"},{"start":347.948,"end":374.671,"text":"現在你就宣誓說只要跟速發部說速發部有這個決心好好去處理那當然大家檢舉也就多了嘛那我覺得詐騙集團也我覺得一定會有作用啦而且我是建議就是說速發部跟我們現在要做啦不是不是我不是講更有效果的方法就是源頭管理都要做啦都要做啦都要電子簽章法在大院都要做都要做讓他通過啦"},{"start":375.271,"end":375.852,"text":"這是去年的時候"},{"start":397.435,"end":409.382,"text":"有委員啊,大概,欸這個應該也是系統的問題啊,就是去年有委員的時候講啊,如果警察有被,有接受到報案,然後有人被詐騙,他要去凍結那個警視帳戶的時候都是用傳真的嘛。"},{"start":409.861,"end":435.21,"text":"那警察傳真到金融機構會衍生很多問題比如說卡紙啊比如說他傳真因為手寫啊手寫萬一寫錯的話會有別的帳戶被凍結啊或者是這個銀行端收到傳真紙有時候回撥警局找不到人啊很多問題那這個就會錯失打詐的這個第一時間嘛我不知道後來院長這個後來有去解決嗎這是去年5月的時候有委員提出來的"},{"start":436.974,"end":466.486,"text":"各位回答一下這個基本上來講是經管會跟內政部我們刑事警察局這邊我們聯繫工作我們打造基本上是聯防每個部位每個階段都有不同的機關對對對沒關係啊你如果不知道你就都不知道好不好你不知道嘛因為執行 因為不是你啦因為你在NCC不是你那院長你知道嗎因為這個東西當時警察一直在抱怨就是說他們用傳真其實時間上也耽擱了有的時候就是傳過去隔了好幾個小時之後那個銀行才收到所以這幾個小時錢就被領走了其實"},{"start":467.066,"end":494.724,"text":"蘇建,我不知道說這個改善了沒?這一個有沒有改,是不是這個個案,這個委員我不清楚。但是在去年齁,我們在這一個銀行這個主詐的這個部分齁,就主詐的這個金額呢,就到了70幾億的錢。沒有啦,欸,院長我們就是問事喔,我都點問題出來,你都在跟我,你都在說這個政令宣導。我的問題就是說這個問題解決了沒嘛?這問題解決了沒?好沒關係,院長你不知道齁,那我跟你講齁,"},{"start":495.624,"end":513.613,"text":"其實現在警政署他們有開發一個系統叫警視帳戶聯防通報制系統這個系統就是說警局以後你們就不要用傳真了你們就輸入那個系統就好了這樣就直接連線了有這個系統我也跟院長講一下在你的院下面的部會有這個系統存在但是我現在要告訴你就是說這個系統也是很爛為什麼"},{"start":515.174,"end":529.39,"text":"因為登打系統完之後他系統輸入還是要傳真啊這個是我最新調到他的通報流程嘛還是要傳真所以搞到警察跟金融人員更麻煩更麻煩要做兩次工"},{"start":530.231,"end":548.267,"text":"那我覺得今天為什麼會在這個地方提出來因為唐鳳部長IT大臣這個這麼厲害的網路神人你應該發揮你的功能幫這些機關做系統好不好不要只弄一些電子文件電子文件那送打分數的簽章也是在電子簽章法也是要電子簽章法通過"},{"start":555.874,"end":557.635,"text":"二類電信,我想問一下,現在二類電信一般是可以跟我們一類電信租到多少門號?"},{"start":581.118,"end":590.852,"text":"二類電信現在沒有二類電信這個名詞的因為我們電信法落日以後我們現在電信管理法那個MEMO這個部分是採所謂的資源登記的方法"},{"start":591.397,"end":618.918,"text":"那志願登記的方法來講的話我們要區分他大概是個人申請還是企業客戶是這樣處理。那可以申請多少門號?門號基本上來講說比如企業客戶原則上是依照我們的質疑以他有多少員工就有這個員工的數字。那現在海峽電信一次可以申請幾十萬門號這個狀況已經沒有?那是以前發生的事現在我們落實KYC這種情況來講現在不會出現海峽電信。我是說一次可以跟一夜電信租多少門號一般的企業嗎?"},{"start":619.739,"end":648.122,"text":"一般其實比如說你的企業裡面只有50個人嘛那50個人來講的話你原則上來講它是這樣的門號去處理嘛所以不會再出現如果你要更加更多的情況來講的話這個時候就要落實KYC去處理為什麼需要這麼多我知道我知道但是現在還是有類似的12家電信公司嘛這是在你們網站上看到的反正這些不是第二類電信喔這是你NCC網站欸這個大概112年6月嘛所以後來就這12家現在就沒有了如果沒有有來登記的就變成所謂的MVMO這個業者嘛"},{"start":649.423,"end":669.996,"text":"對好那我就針對這幾家業者嘛,所以他們還是可以跟一列電信租門號嘛,可以租到50萬戶嘛。對,他用企業客戶的名稱可以跟中華電信等等這些租門號。我的問題是這樣,他跟一列電信業者租了50萬門號,然後他再分租出去。那是以前的,現在不能分租。現在不可能50萬門號這種的程度。那他能不能分租出去?"},{"start":670.623,"end":687.944,"text":"﹗"},{"start":688.084,"end":693.988,"text":"那你覺得這個業者他會不會主動說他把剩下900個門號直接停掉?會不會?會不會?你聽他講。問題是現在就沒有嘛。你有要求現在就沒有嘛。"},{"start":706.937,"end":711.239,"text":"主委主委請教一下今天中天是不是又再次勝訴了對吧沒有那是一個在審的問題而已在審嘛所以在那一審的勝訴了嘛"},{"start":730.97,"end":749.823,"text":"主委,你一直講說你NCC14次勝訴對吧?然後中天只有兩次勝訴嗎?請問一下14次勝訴是包括很多你裁罰出去中天沒有訴訟的部分?這個也算勝訴喔,包括一個訴訟?主委,什麼叫勝訴?勝訴是說我跟你...等一下,等一下...主委,主委,等一下,主委"},{"start":755.027,"end":755.047,"text":"委員﹚"},{"start":775.337,"end":797.882,"text":"實際上你們在打官司不管是有沒有確定在好幾省你們就是一直連辦而且主委我問你另外一件事情啊我問你另外一件事情啊前兩天是不是有一個鳳凰雲前兩天是不是有一個鳳凰雲你們又敗訴了在那一庭沒有沒有沒有那就是敗審的問題嘛敗訴了嗎你那一庭又敗訴了你不瞭解訴訟程序嗎訴訟成敗就是以確定為準嘛"},{"start":802.843,"end":822.451,"text":"那是確定我現在講進行中的我現在講進行中的啦不要再打翻了啦訴訟費是你出嗎你如果說最後你那一庭你出的話你每一庭都是那庭出錢啦我跟你請教望黃雲那個事情你今天早上跟記者講說你跟記者說那個是前朝事你有這樣講嗎"},{"start":823.151,"end":826.053,"text":"我不是跟你辯論喔不好意思那個主席"},{"start":843.343,"end":848.486,"text":"我沒有在跟他辯論,我已經讓你一直講了,但是我有問問題你再回答好不好?"},{"start":855.097,"end":881.803,"text":"發黃雲的部分今天早上記者訪問你你是說那個是前朝事為什麼因為當時我還熱情回答等一下等一下你可以直接講嘛你在反駁嘛那時候你講的是說因為那個東西是前面的規定前面前朝規定那前朝為什麼你要退前朝因為當時所有的委員絕大多數是說不要裁罰可是裁罰了所以記者就問你說怎麼會這樣你說那是前朝決定好前朝決定代表說你也覺得有點理虧所以你才會說是前朝決定"},{"start":882.483,"end":893.194,"text":"那請問一下每一次每一庭敗訴之後你有沒有上訴市民的決定是你的決定嘛所以實際上你也認為說鳳凰雲這個事情你如果是你不管是前朝現朝你就是會這樣裁決啊"},{"start":894.517,"end":918.539,"text":"如果到時候輸的話你要不要負責所以現在NCC的問題是說你們一直在凹明明就是每次一直輸一直輸政府機關要訴訟要輸很不容易啦你已經確定兩件很不容易啦我跟你講啦主委如果你打詐的決心有跟你關電視台決心那麼強的話台灣詐騙會少很多啦"},{"start":921.361,"end":926.965,"text":"打發說我們已經做好了。然後講到關電視台說講一大堆沒有我們還勝訴啊。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}