{"error":false,"id":["150309"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150309,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150309","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T09:33:05+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T09:42:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bee254c990a08ba3b0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6ddd183cc71d874d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"09:33:05 - 09:42:17","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":190,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（9時33分）多謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：張委員早安。"],["張委員啓楷：主委早安。主委，我們都常吃麵包，對不對？有吃過沒有經過烘焙的麵包嗎？你這輩子有沒有吃過沒有經過烘焙的麵包？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：跟委員報告，現在的麵包我越來越少吃，因為它澱粉比較高，醣份會增加，所以……但是還是有啦。"],["張委員啓楷：主委你看一下，經濟部和台電針對小店家、特別是麵包店會不會漲價，他們說用電每個月700度以下的北部連鎖烘焙坊，在調整電價以後一天才增了2塊錢，有這個可能嗎？一些民眾抗議這是跟一般民眾活在平行空間嗎？不食人間煙火嗎？天方夜譚嗎？可是經濟部用這樣的計算標準，大家要問，是當初算錯了嗎？受害者會是誰？麵包店受影響，對不對？另外一個受害者是消費者，因為麵包可能就會漲，是不是要趕快補破網？一天2塊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我看了經濟部的計算，它是說用比較少電的商家，主要是針對這個。"],["張委員啓楷：對，主委，後來它就承認了，台電都認了，它說電價這次調漲，如果有烘烤設備的麵包店，一個月是增加1萬951塊錢。","現在出現兩個問題：第一個，一般的麵包店如果一個月就增加了1萬951塊，羊毛出在羊身上，麵包就要漲了，對不對？第二，更離譜的事情是，經濟部跟台電怎麼可以講這些烘焙坊一天只增加2塊錢呢？你是像鴕鳥一樣，把頭埋在沙裡面，就認為沒有問題，還是惡意在導風向，讓人民誤解？所以我問你，有可能一個烘焙坊不要用到烤箱、用到烘烤嗎？麵包最簡單的定義是什麼？它就是一個經過烘烤的食品，以臺北連鎖的烘烤坊來講，如果是一個門市，它跟上游買麵包，它沒有中央廚房嗎？這個價格是不是都要往上走，對不對？這是不是要算進去？這不是誤導嗎？不是把頭埋在沙裡面嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為我們現在也在推動疫後振興條例及特別預算，有針對節能的部分，事實上經濟部也有講3月節能的部分有一些度數……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我知道，節能那一塊你要多努力。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以它可以改善……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在跟你說的就是政府機關要跟人民活在一樣的空間裡面，不要被罵是天方夜譚、平行空間，怎麼可能一個烘焙坊一天只增加2塊錢？你後來也承認了，是1萬951，另外一個點很嚴重，你現在是拿來騙人民嗎？你沒有把上游算進去，烘焙坊如果是一個百貨公司的門市，向上游、中央廚房買，上游、中央廚房不會用到烘烤嗎？所以這個計算方式是錯誤的，對不對？既然是錯誤的，受害者會是麵包店、會是一般消費者，我們趕快補破網，好不好？你是行政院物價督導小組的成員，你要做一件事情，就是讓麵包店不要漲價，他們也是受害者，你們算錯了，要趕快去補破網，好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個問題，我請教你，你是台積電的獨立董事，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，是法人代表，是國發基金的法人代表。"],["張委員啓楷：國發基金的法人代表？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：台積電這次也受到衝擊，一年要多花170億，你怎麼看這個事情？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：台積電未來的走向一定全部都買綠電，它已經announce在2040年全部都要用綠電，所以變成台電對台積電的影響還是有，但是會越來越小，因為它直接買綠電。"],["張委員啓楷：今天還有一家比較特別的，在竹科裡面有一家「力森諾科」，專門生產硬碟及半導體，現在廠房要賣了、要關廠了，是不是印證了整個電價衝擊了很多科技業？所以剛才說麵包店受影響，對不對？一般的小店家受影響，民生當然受影響更大，所以我一直在高聲疾呼民生用電及小商店的用電不要漲，可是你們還是漲了，現在連科技業都受影響了，怎麼補救？要怎麼補破網？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，剛剛講到小店家的部分，透過疫後特別條例及特別預算怎麼樣讓這些小店家能節能減碳、更好，而且有一些輔導措施……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，你趕快多努力……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，我問一下國發基金的事情。我先肯定國發基金最近盈餘是不錯的，2021年盈餘了193億，2023年盈餘了288億，這方面是要肯定的，可是最近有些新興的投資是不是都一直在踩雷？剛剛兩位委員都提到這一點，裡面有一個很嚴重的……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個大部分都是2019年之前的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：對，我們來看三顧，好不好？三顧現在是嚴重到什麼程度？連日本的日商都說三顧把核心的技術都轉移到大陸去了，現在不是一直在講抗中保臺嗎？你現在不只沒有抗中保臺，還把臺灣人民的納稅錢洗到了中國大陸去。第二個，把人家日本的核心技術都洗到中國大陸去了，怎麼出現這種狀況呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：公司已經澄清了，沒有這樣的事情。公司已經做了澄清，沒有這樣的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：你幫三顧講話，可是他們……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我沒有幫他們講話，是他們澄清……"],["張委員啓楷：日本的日商公司跟他們合作，人家都跟他們解約了，而且人家抗議它的核心技術已經出去了，有沒有？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：他們還在協商跟仲裁當中。"],["張委員啓楷：他們協商，可是這是一個事實啊！第一個，你們的某些錢、臺灣人民的納稅錢因為國發基金去投資，這家公司把人民的納稅錢一方面洗到大陸去，這是錢的問題，對不對？第二個，技術的問題，是日商抗議啊！人家的核心技術啊！所以我強調的是不只沒有抗中保臺、沒有保臺灣，錢還出去了，連日本的核心技術都出去了！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，所以我們也要求我們董事跟所有公司治理的相關企業一定要守法，基本上，如果要把技術洗到中國是違法的，所以這是不能做的，而公司也做了澄清，他們不會做違法的事情。"],["張委員啓楷：你要繼續把這事情查清楚，好不好？因為日本都已經解約了嘛，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，我們一定會。"],["張委員啓楷：另外一個是如興，你投資如興那麼多錢，當初政策評估的發言紀錄的錄音不見了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為以過去來講，政策審是沒有錄音的，從過去到現在。"],["張委員啓楷：也是沒有錄音？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對。"],["張委員啓楷：監察院都已經要糾正你們這一點了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，我們後續看要怎麼樣去針對這個問題來做一些補強。"],["張委員啓楷：如興的狀況也一樣嘛！臺灣人民的納稅錢有一部分洗到中國大陸去了嘛，對不對？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：也沒有啦！那個是董事長個人自己的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：對啊！你去投資它，那他個人有問題，把人民納稅錢洗到中國大陸去啊！所以我剛剛說的兩個案都跟中國大陸有關係，一個還牽扯到日本的核心技術。另外，台灣奈微光不也是一樣的狀況嗎？技術跟資金也是都過去嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：奈微光……"],["張委員啓楷：主委，我先……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：那個已經澄清了。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，這樣好不好？我剛剛至少提了三個大的案子，都是跟中國大陸有關的，你們一直在強調你們要抗中保臺啊！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我們一定啊！"],["張委員啓楷：結果錢也是過去中國大陸，連日本的技術都過去了，這三個案子在一個月內把你的改善計畫送到本席辦公室，好不好？一個月好不好？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：另外，本席也提了一些改善措施，你的組織架構要改革，第一個，要完整且公開你的投資政策評估會議，這也是監察院對你們的要求，馬上要做，好不好？第二個，要強化實地查訪，它的整個經營狀況你一定要掌握，好不好？第三個，不受到政府干預的第三方審查機制要趕快建立起來，可以嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：第三點絕對不會啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以這三大項要趕快做。其次，剛剛講的三個出問題的案子，三大投資，請一個月內將改善計畫送到本席辦公室。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主委、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","呂玉玲","陳超明","陳亭妃","鄭正鈐","楊瓊瓔","賴瑞隆","張嘉郡","黃國昌","黃珊珊","何欣純","蔡易餘","陳培瑜","麥玉珍","黃仁","劉建國"],"page_start":193,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展\n基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金（詢答）；二、處理或審查\n113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案","agenda_id":"1131901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.6340937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.348468750000002,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.352218750000002,"end":24.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.55784375,"end":31.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.637843750000002,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.37596875,"end":35.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.17721875,"end":38.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.90659375,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.62346875,"end":42.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.80471875,"end":43.821593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.821593750000005,"end":50.875343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.111593750000004,"end":51.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.415343750000005,"end":51.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.97221875,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.84096875,"end":56.781593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.000968750000006,"end":58.367843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.789718750000006,"end":60.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.40971875,"end":65.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.02909375,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.94846875,"end":69.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.75409375000001,"end":71.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.97346875000001,"end":74.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.54659375,"end":77.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.28034375,"end":79.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.47409375000001,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.78159375,"end":85.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.81909375000001,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.25346875000001,"end":89.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.04221875,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.34971875000001,"end":94.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.43784375,"end":97.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.11284375000001,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.47971875,"end":99.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.91409375,"end":103.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.64346875000001,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.22096875000001,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.55784375,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.99034375000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.99846875000001,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.72409375000001,"end":128.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.51284375,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.14534375,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.34346875,"end":134.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.38534375,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.17409375,"end":140.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.88659375,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.19846875000002,"end":145.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.52284375000002,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.04971875,"end":150.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.04534375,"end":151.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.00721875000002,"end":153.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.99846875,"end":155.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.19221875000002,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.33971875,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.31846875000002,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.04409375,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.98909375000002,"end":162.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.43596875,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.08096875,"end":167.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.85284375,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.84409375,"end":171.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.00409375,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.95284375,"end":176.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.21409375000002,"end":180.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.70721875,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1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