{"error":false,"id":["150310"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150310,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150310","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T09:29:52+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T09:42:39+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b0f897734d77792d48506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6d462c7c12fd997b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:29:52 - 09:42:39","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時29分）謝謝主席。請主計長。"],["主席：請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長，我請教，因為經濟部長王美花說，漲電價就調漲物價是沒有道理的，所以他喊話說，國內業者不應以漲電價為由來調漲物價，請問你認為這樣的喊話有約束力嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：物價的漲我們原則上尊重市場制度，他講的應該是漲幅，不應該惡意去漲，他應該是這種意思。"],["林委員德福：原本台電拿北部連鎖的這些烘焙坊來當案例，對外聲稱每個月用電700度以下，大約每日開銷增加2塊、2元，結果後來又改口說，如果具有烘焙設備，用電較高的麵包店，試算每個月增加將近1萬905元，請問主計長，政府的政策說明是不是根本把老百姓當傻瓜，不斷在玩數字遊戲，企圖來粉飾太平？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，事實上經濟部的方案規劃得很詳細，小商店的話，它是700度以內的，調整百分之三，700度到1,500度的，就超額部分調整百分之五，對真正的一些小店舖……"],["林委員德福：我一直認為政府是不是無知？不知民間疾苦，才會這樣的無知？"],["朱主計長澤民：不會啦！因為他知道有些小店舖的生意沒有那麼大，所以那些比較小的店舖它的調幅比較低，用電3,000度以上的，超過的那一個部分，就調整百分之十，所以就有考慮那個情況。"],["林委員德福：主計長，台電昨天發布新聞稿表示，台電扮演穩住物價的角色，如果不是前兩年當消波塊吸收成本，抵擋全球燃料價格飆漲所引發的通膨巨浪，國內整個通膨的情形、情勢會更加的嚴峻，我請問主計長，對於台電是抵擋通膨巨浪的消波塊的說法，你認為民眾能夠完全接受嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：的確，跟國外比較起來，有些國家的電費調整百分之八十，也有調整百分之三十、四十以上的都有，那我們在前一些時候沒有調整，但是台電的成本增加，像燃煤的……"],["林委員德福：增加的你全部都是用歲計賸餘，甚至於我們每一年超徵的，然後來補貼它，這個還是全民的。"],["朱主計長澤民：增加的金額比歲計賸餘去挹注它多很多。"],["林委員德福：歲計賸餘你就是用超徵的去補助啊！對不對？一共補助多少？你告訴我。"],["朱主計長澤民：112是有……"],["林委員德福：這也是人民的血汗錢，拜託！"],["朱主計長澤民：112是有2,000億，113有編1,000億……"],["林委員德福：對啊！2,000億、1,000億就3,000億了。"],["朱主計長澤民：現在又再編1,000億，總共有4,000億……"],["林委員德福：現在還虧空那麼多。"],["朱主計長澤民：可是台電的虧損每年就是有兩千、三千億，連續好幾年……"],["林委員德福：主計長，你也很清楚啦！電價審議委員會幾乎每一次就是……反正我就是不漲，為什麼？因為適逢選舉、選舉考量，現在跟選舉距離比較長，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，那一段期間因為國際的情勢，我們的物價也有一個波動，尤其煤跟各種大宗物資增加，所以經濟部才說有消波堤，暫時讓它避免……將來再緩慢的上升。"],["林委員德福：主計長，因為台電前一段時間沒有漲價，所以才不會造成整個通膨，抗通膨的功勞全部攬在它一身，企圖來合理化漲電價，這次要漲，說實在本席是無法認同，因為這幾年提到電力吃緊，台電每次都說用電無虞，就是一定有電，經濟部更是拿風電、太陽能發電來做擋箭牌，為什麼現在又說台電撐不下去了呢？前後顛倒嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，因為現在如果沒有漲的話，台電還是每年支大於收，長此下去它的那個……"],["林委員德福：就是能源政策的錯誤，大家很清楚啊！對不對？你把所有的核電，把最經濟、最乾淨的電全部處理掉，然後用離岸風電、用光電，用一些可能耗成本很高的這些電，最嚴重的是什麼？你看離岸風電，我們夏天沒有風，結果離岸風電根本就不能轉，冬天不需要那麼多電，但是風電一直轉，轉多少要吸收多少啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：因為用核能，後端的處理成本將會很高，委員您講風扇好像轉得很小……"],["林委員德福：後端處理成本很高？現在全世界都把核電廠、核電變成綠能，只有你在這樣講，對不對？主計長，全球央行都在暗示未來幾個月可能會降息，全球的央行都在降息，結果我們央行上個禮拜四決議提起升息半碼，把基準利率調整至2008年以來最高的水準，當然楊總裁表示這個決定是為了抑制國內通膨預期的心理。主計長，你也是理監事成員之一……"],["朱主計長澤民：報告委員，我是監事。"],["林委員德福：請問你認同楊總裁表示決定升息是為了抑制國內通膨預期心理的理由嗎？你認為呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我尊重總裁的意見，不過我跟委員報告，我是監事會主席，央行的監事，根據央行的法令規定，監事只能管財務，不適合管政策。"],["林委員德福：問題是你要瞭解啊！你要提出一些看法，為什麼會出現通膨預期的心理，到底是誰有這種預期的心理？是民眾嗎？還是企業、還是政府？這種心態的狀況，光是升息就能完全來抑制嗎？你認為呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告，所謂的預期心理，一般是指私經濟部門。"],["林委員德福：是經濟部門？"],["朱主計長澤民：私經濟部門，就是您講的民眾跟企業。"],["林委員德福：對啊！主計長，央行總裁表示央行預測今年消費者物價指數CPI年增率是2.16%，是以平均電價10%的漲幅來估算，若未來電價調升幅度更大，的確不排除CPI增幅會再擴大。主計長先前就說電價漲一成，至少會直接影響CPI 0.12%，也就是CPI考量電價下，則年增率大概接近2%，請問為什麼央行會出現預測今年CPI年增率會到2.16%？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告，我講0.12%，那個0.12%是只有需求面，但是它供給面、廠商的成本，因為我們在做估計的時候，不曉得它的調幅是多少，所以我們那一個項沒有估在裡面，我在報告裡面也有提到……"],["林委員德福：因為央行的預測跟你們的預測足足差了0.2%，是不是已經把廠商的轉嫁至消費者間影響的部分都算在內？是不是這樣子？"],["朱主計長澤民：央行已經把成本面算在裡面，當時我只講需求面，沒有講成本面，現在它的方案確定了以後，我們的估計大概跟央行很接近，他們是2.16%，我們大概是2.03%左右，大概只差0.1個百分點左右。"],["林委員德福：因為電價一漲百物皆漲，而且再加上利率的調升再半碼，其實等於是一隻牛剝很多層皮。主計長，通膨預期的變動影響實質經濟生活以及物價的穩定，所以對通膨預期心理的管理是貨幣政策需要考量的一大重點，請問央行這次升息利率調升，所持的理論依據是不是完全依照泰勒法則？是不是這樣子？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，事實上央行的調整，後來在隔天行政院有開會，對有一些情況是不調的，像所謂的既有的貸款或者是有關於社會福利機構、學校，那些是不調的。政策性的，它就不調。"],["林委員德福：你看，因為電價要漲，包括所有的百物、萬物皆漲，像掛號費，而且包括臺鐵、高鐵、公路，客運等等，幾乎全面漲。"],["朱主計長澤民：掛號費的調整事實上從去年就開始，所以掛號費的調整對物價的衝擊不是想像中的那麼嚴重，因為它是……"],["林委員德福：沒有那麼嚴重？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為它是去年就開始……"],["林委員德福：但是民眾感受很深啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：去年就開始調整，對生病的人也許會感受嚴重，可是對整體的物價，因為去年就開始漲，所以物價指數是有限的，當然對個案可能會影響很多，而且因為掛號費是可以收也可以不收，由醫院決定。"],["林委員德福：因為主要就是萬物皆漲，唯獨只有薪水不漲……"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！我們……"],["林委員德福：老百姓痛苦指數越飆越高，講實在話，你過去就是掩飾太平嘛！你剛剛講的消波塊這種操作方式，其實我們是希望薪資、薪水的所得要跟CPI物價上漲成正比，不然老百姓沒有賺那麼多錢，但是買的東西越來越少，因為你萬物皆漲，當然他們痛苦指數就越飆越高啊！是不是這樣子？"],["朱主計長澤民：事實上基本工資以及公務人員的薪水和退休人員的退撫都有適當的調整。"],["林委員德福：適當調整？但是老百姓是痛苦指數越飆越高，所有受薪階級的都是如此，政府應該要全盤性的去考量，謝謝。"],["朱主計長澤民：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請吳秉叡委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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所以就有考慮那個情況"},{"start":146.986,"end":164.484,"text":"臺電昨天發布新聞稿表示臺電扮演穩住物價的角色如果不是前兩年來當消波塊吸收成本抵擋全球燃料價格的飆漲引發的通膨這些巨浪"},{"start":166.325,"end":194.692,"text":"國內整個通膨的情形啊情勢會更加的嚴峻那我請問主計長對於台電是這個抵擋通膨巨量的消波塊的說法你認為民眾能夠完全接受嗎的確的跟國外比較起來有些國家他的電費都調整百分之八十的都有也有調整百分之三、四十以上的都有的那我們在前些時候沒有一個調整啊"},{"start":195.272,"end":220.505,"text":"但是他們台電的那個成本增加像那個燃煤的增加增加你全部都是用稅計剩餘啊甚至於我們這個每年超徵的然後來補貼他這個還是全民的增加的那個金額比稅計剩餘去挹注他多很多稅計剩餘你就是用超徵的去補助啊對不對一共補助多少你告訴我"},{"start":220.965,"end":233.776,"text":"那個是這個一一二是有這是也是人民的血汗錢拜託一一二是有兩千億一一三有變一千億現在又變一千億怎麼會有四千億可是台電的虧損每年就是有兩三千億連續好幾年那個主計長你也很清楚啦電價審議委員會幾乎每一次就是反正我就是部長"},{"start":247.708,"end":271.617,"text":"為什麼?因為有適逢選舉選舉考量現在跟選舉距離比較長那個跟我有報告因為那一段期間因為國際的情勢那我們的那一個是什麼物價也有一個波動尤其那個煤啦電、煤啦各種大量物資增加所以用那一個所謂的"},{"start":272.598,"end":272.758,"text":"主席"},{"start":292.419,"end":308.617,"text":"這個抗通膨的功勞全部攬在他一身啦。企圖來合理化漲電價這次要漲說實在本席是無法認同因為這樣這幾年提到電力吃緊台電每次都說沒有用沒有"},{"start":310.475,"end":326.134,"text":"就是用電無虞啦就是一定有電啦經濟部更是拿個風電啦太陽能發電啦來做這個擋箭牌為什麼現在又說台電撐不下去了呢台電撐不下去了呢全部顛倒嘛"},{"start":327.976,"end":354.597,"text":"因為...你就是人員政策的錯誤啊大家很清楚啊對不對你把所有的這個核電全部都最經濟最乾淨的電全部把它處理掉然後你用離岸風電用光電然後用一些這個可能耗"},{"start":355.538,"end":374.804,"text":"議員會議員"},{"start":374.964,"end":385.211,"text":"那個用核能後端的處理成本將會很高,而委員您講說那個好像……後端處理很高,現在全世界都把能源、核電變成綠能,對不對,只有你在這樣講"},{"start":392.136,"end":406.949,"text":"對不對其實齁主計長全球齁主要你像我在講央行都在暗示未來幾個月可能會降息齁全球的央行都在降息結果我們央行上個禮拜四啊決議提起升息辦碼"},{"start":408.39,"end":434.588,"text":"把基準利率調整至2008年以來最高的水準當然楊總裁表示說這個決定是為了抑制國內通盤疫情的心理主計長你也是李監事成員之一啦我請問你認同楊總裁表示決定升席是為了抑制國內通盤的疫情心理的理由嗎"},{"start":438.571,"end":459.548,"text":"總裁的意見不過我跟委員報告一下我是監事會主席央行的監事根據央行的一個法令規定那我請問那我來規定監事只能管財務不適合管政策那你要提出一些看法為什麼會出現通膨疫情的心理這個到底是誰"},{"start":461.63,"end":482.261,"text":"有這種預期的心理是民眾嗎?還是企業?還是政府?這種心態的狀況光是升息就能完全來抑制嗎?我跟那個委員報告一下所謂的預期心理一般是指施經濟部門施經濟部門施經濟部門就是領獎的民眾跟那個企業對啊阿主計長"},{"start":489.724,"end":512.741,"text":"央行總裁表示央行預測今年消費者物價指數CPI年增率是2.16%是以平均電價10%的漲幅來估算若未來電價調升幅度更大的確不排除CPI增幅會再擴大主計長你先前你就說電價漲一層至少會直接影響CPI0.12%"},{"start":515.583,"end":543.414,"text":"也就是CPI考量電價下則年增率大概接近百分之二那請問為什麼央行會出現預測今年CPI那個我跟各位報告一下那個我講說0.12嘛那個0.12是只有那個需求面但是他供給面廠商的成本因為我們在做估計的時候不曉得他的那個條幅是多少所以我們那個項沒有估在裡面因為齁"},{"start":545.235,"end":568.069,"text":"央行的預測跟你們的預測齣齣差了0.2%是不是已經把廠商的轉嫁至消費者兼影響的部分都算在內?央行已經把成本面在裡面當初我只講需求面沒有講成本面現在他的方案是確定了以後我們的估計大概是怎麼樣"},{"start":568.629,"end":570.65,"text":"因為喔,電價一漲,百物皆漲,而且齁,你再加上這個利率的調升在半馬,其實齁"},{"start":588.962,"end":610.518,"text":"等於是一隻牛撥很多層皮啦 主計長通盤預期的變動影響實質、經濟生活以及物價的穩定所以對通盤預期心理的管理是貨幣政策需要考量一大的重點那請問要讓正式升息利率調升所持的理論依據是不是完全依照泰勒的法則是不是這樣子"},{"start":611.418,"end":632.927,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下事實上央行的一個調整後來在隔天行政院就有開會對某些那些情況他是不調的像那個所謂的既有的那個貸款或者是那個既有的那些或者是有關於那些社會福利機構學校"},{"start":634.548,"end":634.648,"text":"主席"},{"start":653.564,"end":674.787,"text":"等等啦!幾乎啦!全面漲!今天委員報告一下瓜惠的調整是從去年就開始所以瓜惠的調整啦他對物價的衝擊啊不是想像中的那麼嚴重沒有那麼嚴重喔但是民眾感受很深啊去年就開始因為對生病的人也許會感到嚴重"},{"start":675.747,"end":693.314,"text":"但是對整體的物價因為去年就開始漲所以物價指數是有限的當然對個案是可能會影響很多而且有些那個是他也不有些醫院因為公安會是可以收可以不收由醫院來決定"},{"start":695.066,"end":716.772,"text":"那個主計長主要就是萬物皆長那唯獨只有薪水不漲老百姓痛苦指數越飆越高講實在話你過去你就是掩飾太平嘛你剛剛講的消波塊這種操作方式其實我們是希望說這個你"},{"start":719.813,"end":736.926,"text":"新資、薪水的所得要跟你CPI就是物價上漲要成正比啊不然老百姓我沒有賺那麼多錢但是買的東西越來越少因為你萬物皆漲啊對不對當然他們痛苦指數就越飆越高啊"},{"start":737.706,"end":737.806,"text":"吳秉瑞 吳委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}