{"error":false,"id":["150318"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150318,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150318","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T09:47:26+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T09:56:46+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:20","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b573a394e84dc2a10e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a621e6da3feca83ab35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:47:26 - 09:56:46","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時47分）主席好，有請勞動部部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我請問一下，高雄被媒體稱為工安之都，您覺得誰要負最大的責任？高雄市政府還是勞動部？"],["許部長銘春：我想有關於勞工的安全問題，都是中央跟地方要一起來面對，然後一起來處理，一起來強化。"],["邱委員鎮軍：之前，我記得你們SOP的回答是中央是監督責任，地方是執行，是不是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：大政策是這樣子啦，但是有些執行面，大部分是在地方政府，但是還是要合作啦。"],["邱委員鎮軍：中央還是有責任就對了？"],["許部長銘春：中央就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對吧？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以啊，一碰到高雄的時候，你們中央就願意扛責任，我覺得這很奇怪，還是有顏色之分！"],["許部長銘春：不會！不會！委員，我們其實對……"],["邱委員鎮軍：還是碰到藍的就是推給地方，碰到綠的就是中央一起扛。"],["許部長銘春：不會、不會！跟委員報告，歷來任何地方政府有發生職災事件，我們中央跟地方都是一起來面對，大家看怎麼去檢討，然後強化，這個一直以來都是這樣，沒有顏色之分啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：佳豐鋁業爆炸案造成2名移工死亡、3名移工及3名本國勞工不同程度的燒燙傷，你知道業者怎麼說嗎？陳其邁市長怎麼說您知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：你說陳市長怎麼說？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，業者怎麼說？"],["許部長銘春：業者喔？"],["邱委員鎮軍：他的回答是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：呃，我沒有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：廠方是說當時在進行灌模作業，疑似因為控制系統異常，降溫水量不足，才會導致後續接觸高達700度的鋁水池發生爆炸。那我們陳市長則說水量控制器的故障引發大量的鋁液外洩，洩漏到蓄水池而造成爆炸。我覺得這兩個講法不太一樣，我們都知道，高溫鋁碰到水的時候會爆炸，這個國二的時候學校就有教了，業者從76年設立到現在會不知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個實際發生的原因目前都還在調查當中，除了他們高雄市的勞檢處以外，我們南區職安中心也協助在個案來做釐清。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊，爆炸原因檢警還在調查嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：消防鑑定都還沒出來，勞檢報告也還沒做，高雄市勞工局依照職業安全衛生實施規則第一百八十條就已經先開罰了，我覺得這個很奇怪嘛！"],["許部長銘春：應該是先停工，委員，我知道是先停工，他是說後續將會引用剛剛您講的那個條文來開罰。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，他已經開罰了。"],["許部長銘春：已經開罰了嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我是職安署署長，以一般的作業流程來說，在災害發生後，我要做細部調查分析，調查分析確定了職災的基本原因、直接原因跟間接原因之後，才做後續的裁罰跟處置。當然，媒體會詢問案子的概況跟後續可能開罰的狀況，所以應該是地方政府針對目前這個個案先做初步的說明，整個行政程序還是依照標準作業流程來進行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們今年1月時的春安檢查報告，連螺絲有沒有拴緊你們都會看，這種會造成大爆炸的環境問題，我們3年檢查14次了都沒有發現嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個部分，其實我們之前去做，之前高雄市去做了檢查，我所瞭解的就是好像是針對教育訓練不足，還有堆高機，但是好像沒有針對這個，這個如果像他們所講的是降溫的控制系統故障，這個就應該是平常在相關機器的管理上要注意……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為你們每一年都有勞動檢查方針嘛，今年的總共有19頁，每一年都有檢查的方向及作法，你們的報告都是複製貼上，然後都沒有去追蹤，就隨便做嗎？碰到意外的時候再來檢討？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有！我們每年所檢查的那個都會追蹤，也會去做複查，然後做原因的分析，之後再看看後續如何來強化相關的檢查策略。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，佳豐鋁業爆炸跟小港海光煉鋼廠搬運爐渣引水蒸氣爆炸，還有明揚大火，都是一個縮影，我想我們要把勞檢做得確實一點，不要讓業者存有僥倖的心態，好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：當然、當然。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請部長這邊多加強。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外我還有一個問題，目前移工的問題是世界的一個趨勢，根據日本國際協力機構預測，日本必須在2040年前將外國移工的數量從目前的205萬人增加至674萬人，5年內要把技術勞工、簽證移工增加1倍，超過80萬人，面對日本搶人大作戰，目前我國的政策移工留才久用為主，我們有沒有準備要檢討跟進？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分其實是日本跟進我們，他是把實習生轉成中階技術人力，就是我們移工在前年開始推的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在的問題是他們現在擴大嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：就是把實習生轉成中階技術人力……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們到時候會不會招不到人，或者是我們的人才流失，我現在重點在這裡。"],["許部長銘春：不會、不會！"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是誰學誰的問題啦！"],["許部長銘春：不會！我跟委員報告，我現在的中階技術人力，就是移工留才久用方案，我們的成效其實非常好，我現在到2月底已經二萬五千多人……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以不需要去管他？我們自己就可以……"],["許部長銘春：不是不需要去管他，我的意思是說……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你自己很有信心，我們的人不會被拉走就對了？"],["許部長銘春：第一個，我要跟委員說明，對於我們的移工留才久用我相當有信心，我一定會達標……"],["邱委員鎮軍：萬一真的到時候跑掉了呢？"],["許部長銘春：不會。第二個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你確定不會啊？"],["許部長銘春：不是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：確定嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不是，因為這都是已經有技術的人，也有相當的薪資。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我記得以前都是我們培養人然後被日本拉走，這個問題在這裡……"],["許部長銘春：而且我跟委員說明，他轉中階，他可以攜眷來臺灣，所以這個跑掉……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們對我們自己的政策很有信心，也就是說我們有信心，這些技術移工不會被拉走，人才不會流失？"],["許部長銘春：因為他願意轉，就是他希望留在這裡。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我今天也提出這個問題，是希望我們勞動部也是要多關注這個問題。"],["許部長銘春：會、會、會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不要等事情發生的時候，我們再來解決，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，現在我們的移民跟人口政策，就是國發會跟其他5個部會一起定時在檢討，包括移工政策，也是裡面的重要項目之一，所以我們都會隨時去關注。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我記得之前有提到一個叫做新經濟移民法，這個部分我們有沒有在討論要讓它復活？"],["許部長銘春：新經濟移民法的權責機關是在國發會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當時是好像勞動部反對，是吧？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，我們沒有反對，那時候就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對於這種議題，我們有沒有準備一個作法，或者是把新經濟移民法完成？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這後來是用攬才專法，它原來是新經濟移民法，可是因為可能修法方面有一些過程不是很順利，後來它就用攬才專法，同樣達到留才攬才的目的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦，部長，我這樣講，我們現在少子化缺工的問題是非常嚴重的，有關移工的政策，我希望要成為國內人口政策的一環，這樣才為我們以後的勞動力能夠多添一個保障，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員。","接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.738468750000003,"end":10.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.99534375,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.72034375,"end":18.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.032218750000002,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.54221875,"end":25.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.33909375,"end":27.098468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.824093750000003,"end":29.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.69284375,"end":32.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.37159375,"end":44.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.17596875,"end":44.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.95221875,"end":53.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.08159375,"end":54.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.13596875,"end":59.734718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.27909375,"end":59.8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