{"error":false,"id":["150329"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150329,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150329","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T10:10:42+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T10:22:10+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:28","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b1bd27a6d126baf3ee5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6fa45173602f404955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:10:42 - 10:22:10","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":519,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時10分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長好。看到你都覺得很親切，一樣是屏東人，我要問你的是，上次我也有問過，剛剛很多委員提到高雄鋁業爆炸2死6傷的事情，上次屏東的明揚大火也很嚴重，造成10死、九十幾個人受傷。屏東縣的職災是4.196，全國第一名，我看高雄市也還不錯，也是滿高的，你做過高雄市的副市長，現在是勞動部長，為什麼高雄、屏東那邊常常出事情，你說明一下好不好？除了開罰單以外，你們到底有沒有在教育人家，你們有在輔導嗎？勞動部裡面有沒有聘請學者專家去幫他們，尤其是針對這些高危險行業，你們是怎麼處理的？還是只會罵人、開單？"],["許部長銘春：有，其實我們平常除了透過勞檢以外，也有針對這些高風險的行業，我們與經濟部有總體檢合作，我們都會去做一些宣導說明，讓大家對於職災怎麼落實自主管理，以及要怎麼來提升，這個部分其實都有在做了。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果有專家去看，看到這些高危險的化工廠，有可能會爆炸的這些東西，你們一看到問題就要趕快加強輔導，該區隔的要區隔，不要像明揚公司的辦公室、工廠、儲存場全部和在一起，一定會出事情的。這是屏東的特定區，距離屏東高鐵只有1.4公里，這裡離明揚很近，以後如果這些化工廠、這些高危險的黏著劑工廠發生爆炸，高鐵也會出問題，所以這是很危險的。我在這裡要要求的是，這些化學工廠、這些鋁業工廠、這些會爆炸的、容易發生火災的工廠，你們要總體檢，你們絕對有這個能力，總體檢之後要輔導，該開單的開單，但是也該給予輔導，讓它不要發生事情，不然只有開單的話，我也很會開，但是開單沒有用，對它一直開罰、一直開罰，它也是不在乎。"],["許部長銘春：這個要跨部會來做。"],["蘇委員清泉：勞動部本身就有能力，你們職安署……"],["許部長銘春：對啦，本於我們權責的部分，我們一定會加強，相關部會一起來努力，大家協力。"],["蘇委員清泉：像明揚一年賺5.9億，你開單罰個20萬、30萬，你們去查了18次，其中有9次開單，我算了一下總共加起來剛好是罰50萬，它賺了5、6億，所以它才不會管你，這是不對的，好不好？這個差太多了！另外，我上次有講過那些做高爾夫球的業者，你們有沒有去查？"],["鄒署長子廉：有，跟委員報告，目前做高爾夫球的我記得是6家。"],["蘇委員清泉：6家，對。"],["鄒署長子廉：其他轄區包括彰化、雲林，我們也做了一部分的檢查，特別針對它危險物質的儲存，我們也以專案的部分來瞭解，這個部分跟委員回報。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以已經都有掃過一次了？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：那這樣像這些，像屏東也有鋁業、鋁錠的工廠，我都去參觀過，高雄這個是一發生就爆炸、高溫、火災，然後就死人了，我們不希望這種事情一而再再而三地發生，兩個禮拜前才質詢你們，現在又發生高雄這件事，聽了實在是很難過！這個是高壓氣體的工作場所還是鍋爐的工作場所？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，這個廠沒有鍋爐，但是有兩個高壓氣體設備，都是經過定期檢查合格的，這個案子還是要在現場實際地做嚴格地分析調查才可以知道肇災原因，目前我們初判是它處理系統裡面的降溫噴水措施造成了故障，所以變成它的鋁液沒有固定化就倒到冷卻水池了，這個細節的部分還是要現場再做進一步瞭解，所以不是鍋爐本體或是壓力本體的問題。"],["蘇委員清泉：我們醫療院所對於這個尋根、追根之旅做得很落實，那是因為衛福部會找學者、專家來輔導你們，你有問題就丟出來，他們會幫你一起解決。勞動部有沒有這個機制，還有沒有這個能力，還是不想做？工廠當然是非常多啦，但是你們一定要把這些高危險性的部分一而再再而三地去掃描、去檢查，我覺得花錢只是一個末端的事情，前面的預防可能比較重要。工廠真的都分不清，教也教不會，那就叫它停工好了啦！不然那是很可怕的，職災那麼多，誰受得了，好不好？部長。"],["許部長銘春：好，這個部分我們會來加強。"],["蘇委員清泉：剛剛我們廖委員問，這個職責是勞動部的職責，還是地方政府的職責？你當過高雄市副市長，像高雄這件事是誰要負責？沒人負責，推來推去？"],["許部長銘春：關於職災，發生事情時，平常的執行當然在地方政府，我們勞動部不僅監督也會協助，職災的預防或者職災的這些處理都是中央、地方一起來合作，不管哪個縣市都一樣。"],["蘇委員清泉：我覺得這樣推來推去也沒有用，沒有意思啦！我們看到的是，不希望發生……"],["許部長銘春：我們沒有推啦！這件事情一發生，我們南區中心的人就去協助了。"],["蘇委員清泉：對，你們職安署要振作一點啦！第二個問題，我要講外送員，因為COVID-19的時候外送非常非常地興旺，現在已經萎縮了，但是很多年輕人還是在做這個，這個錢一張單從68塊變成40塊，然後現在降到二十幾塊，收入又變少，然後工作時間就拉長，就產生事故。屏東上個月就發生29件車禍等事件，就是因為搶快啊！又有三十幾個人受傷，像這種情況，現在這些外送員，你們有沒有幫他輔導？我們缺工、缺人才，缺那麼多，我是覺得做外送員除了比較自由以外，實在是也很辛苦。"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：你們有輔導、職訓，讓他們去做比較好的工作嘛！"],["許部長銘春：有，報告委員，這是非典型的工作，其實我們都希望他還是能回到正常的職場來。"],["蘇委員清泉：對啦！"],["許部長銘春：所以他有任何職訓的要求、專業需要提升，我們都有機制、有計畫可以幫忙他，都沒有問題，不過我知道在疫情期間，因為那時候很多餐旅都有受到影響，很多都裁員，所以有些人進到外送，可是現在好像人數已經降下來，也都回到職場了，因為現在缺工也很嚴重。如果有好的勞動條件、好的收入的話，我想他們也是願意回到職場。"],["蘇委員清泉：你們要輔導啦！你們每個職訓局都做得那麼好，應該要把他們找來好好地訓練。"],["許部長銘春：會的。"],["蘇委員清泉：訓練完，專業人員的薪水都5、6萬，7、8萬，怎麼還讓他……"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["蘇委員清泉：我們的外送員送東西到漁船給外籍漁工，外籍漁工在那邊等，等他送東西去給他吃，那一幕我一輩子都不會忘記，那是很荒唐的事情，臺灣小孩做Uber Eats送東西去，外籍漁工在船上等他送來，好像角色是混淆的，應該是他們送給我們吃才對，這真的是，那一幕你去東港看看，現在每天都有，部長你是東港人，所以你要振作一點，拜託啦！","最後一個，我問你，大家都在罵我們對外籍漁工很苛刻、怎麼樣，我上個禮拜才處理，這個在模里西斯被打的船長，爸爸媽媽都來了，我們找漁業署、外交部、法務部開了一個會。我們一艘漁船出去，只有船長跟大副是臺灣人，其他船就到菲律賓、到印尼去，把漁工載上來，或者是和我們的遠洋漁工出去，整艘船二十多個人都外籍漁工，我們臺灣人只有兩個，他們天天處於危險的情況，你知道那個船長都在船長室裡面把鐵門鎖起來嗎？我是覺得說我們苛刻外籍漁工，這個情況現在已經改善很多，所以我們的船長倒是要跟漁工保持良好的兄弟關係，不然真的什麼時候被打死都不知道，所以我要替這些遠洋的船主還有那個船長講話，不能一面倒地一直罵他們，我覺得沒道理，所以部長，這點你要去……"],["許部長銘春：勞資和諧很重要，雇主跟漁工的權益，我想兩方都要兼顧，這個是應該的。"],["蘇委員清泉：有時候也要幫他們講一些公道話，我看他們被打，被打成這個樣子，我覺得我們的法務部也使不上力，我們外交部也使不上力，跟模里西斯也沒有邦交，所以我們只好找對岸去幫忙，這樣好笑不好笑？所以要加強，好不好？以上。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","作以下宣告：等一下盧縣一委員質詢結束後，休息10分鐘。","現在請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.08846875,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.69471875,"end":23.402843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.925968750000003,"end":25.613468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.727218750000002,"end":27.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.68909375,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.133468750000006,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.554718750000006,"end":53.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.81159375,"end":60.78096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.641593750000006,"end":66.75471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.21034375,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.38721875,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.19284375000001,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.88284375,"end":84.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.05971875,"end":89.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.51534375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.33346875000001,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.48534375,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.62034375,"end":89.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.65409375,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.68784375,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.70471875000001,"end":89.77221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.77221875000001,"end":89.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.78909375,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.83971875,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.89034375,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.94096875000001,"end":89.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.97471875000001,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.31221875,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.34596875000001,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.83909375,"end":99.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.91409375,"end":100.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.69034375000001,"end":100.74096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.06159375,"end":101.07846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.41596875,"end":105.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.51659375000001,"end":108.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.21221875,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.29534375,"end":117.31221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.31221875000001,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.95346875000001,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.39221875000001,"end":132.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.78721875,"end":129.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.85846875000001,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.52909375000002,"end":137.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.31346875,"end":136.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.01784375,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.96284375000002,"end":144.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.17284375,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.79659375,"end":151.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.29846875,"end":152.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.73284375,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.10346875000002,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.39846875,"end":160.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.67659375000002,"end":163.71846875},{"speaker":"SP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送來撒棄"},{"start":393.884,"end":414.149,"text":"這個就是說有關於職災的像事情平常的這個執行當然在地方政府那我們勞動部不僅監督也會協助那就是說職災的預防或者職災的這個一些處理都是中央地方一起來合作不管哪個地方"},{"start":414.329,"end":421.714,"text":"對啦我覺得這樣推來推去也沒有用啦沒有意思啦我們看到的是不需要不需要發生對啦你們自然是要更盡力的啦好第二個問題我要講外送員因為COVID-19的時候外送非常非常的興旺現在已經"},{"start":437.714,"end":440.176,"text":"二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論二、處理中華民國11案及討論"},{"start":462.478,"end":468.343,"text":"再來三十幾人受傷像這種你們現在這些外送員你們有沒有幫他輔導"},{"start":470.12,"end":495.647,"text":"我們缺工、缺人才、缺那麼多我是覺得做這種外送員實在是…那主流藝工也很辛苦的你有那個…幫人…幫人輔導、執訓讓他們去更好工作嘛其實報告委員我們都希望這個非典的工作我們都希望他還是回到正常的職場來啦所以他有任何執訓的要求專業需要提升我們都有機制、有計畫可以幫忙他都沒有問題"},{"start":496.727,"end":520.56,"text":"都沒有問題不過我知道是在疫情期間因為很多那時候參旅都沒有受到影響所以很多都裁員或什麼所以有些進到外送可是現在好像人數已經降下來回到職場因為現在缺工也很嚴重那如果好的勞動條件那有這樣的一個這個好的"},{"start":521.5,"end":524.681,"text":"二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案及討論二、處理中華民國11年度中央政府總預算凍結案21案及討論"},{"start":539.275,"end":565.896,"text":"那個外送員送到那個漁船給外籍漁工外籍漁工你要等你送東西來我吃那一幕我一輩子都不會忘記很荒唐的事情台灣孩子做Uber送東西來外籍漁工在餐廳等他站起來好像角色是混淆的應該是他們送給我們吃才對這個真的是那一幕你去東港看看你東港看真的有 每天都有"},{"start":568.098,"end":591.39,"text":"所以部長,你每天人要盡力,拜託最後一個我問你,這個外籍移工大家都在罵罵我們對外籍移工很苛刻啦怎麼樣啦,我要上個禮拜我才處理我們這個摩里西斯被打的船長爸爸媽媽都來我們叫漁業署、外交部、法務部開一個會"},{"start":594.613,"end":613.86,"text":"欸!我們一條漁船出去只有船長跟大副是台灣人其他船就到菲律賓到印尼去把漁工上來或者是我們的遠洋漁工然後出去整隻船二十五個二十五個都外籍漁工我們的台灣人只有兩個"},{"start":616.107,"end":641.737,"text":"他們天天處於危險的情況你知道那個船長都在船長室裡面捨射我是覺得說我們在苛刻外籍移工這個現在的情況已經改善很多所以倒是我們的船長要跟移工要保持良好的兄弟關係不然真的好像怕死了還不知道所以我要拿這個演員"},{"start":646.419,"end":666.124,"text":"這傳屬還有那個船長替他們講講話不能一面倒地常常在罵人家的 我覺得沒道理所以部長這點你要去...對 我們勞資和諧很重要啦 僱主跟這個移工權 我想兩方都要兼顧啦有時候也要跟他們講一些公道話"},{"start":667.004,"end":682.9,"text":"所以我看他們被打打成這個樣子我覺得我們法務部也使不上力我們外交部也使不上力阿牟利西斯也不幫教所以我們只好找對岸去幫忙這樣好笑不好笑所以要加強好不好以上謝謝蘇青權委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}