{"error":false,"id":["150340"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150340,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150340","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T10:34:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T10:42:22+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b071d45a0fc7ff285cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a683776d75a58566785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:34:46 - 10:42:22","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":401,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時34分）主席好，各位今天與會所有的各單位大家好。請王部長。"],["主席：王部長，請。"],["蔡委員其昌：陳局長也一起好了。"],["主席：陳局長。"],["王部長國材：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，部長好。你贊不贊成讓花東人交通建設更完善？贊不贊成讓花東人回家的路更安全？"],["王部長國材：贊成，而且我支持。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，本席也贊成，雖然我不是花東人，但我也非常贊成、非常支持。所以，過去蔡政府執政八年投入多少建設在花東的交通建設？"],["王部長國材：我們執行中還有已經完成的大概有2,200億，那現在還有一些規劃，加起來大概3,000億。"],["蔡委員其昌：總共完成加規劃中的有3,000億的預算投入花東交通建設，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是，對。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，這個要跟大家說清楚，我看很多委員的質詢對你們的業務不是太瞭解，好像一副蔡政府這八年來對花東人漠不關心，交通建設投入3,000億，3,000億的交通建設。部長，我們今天討論花東快，過去花東快的歷史，馬英九總統他也做過、他也承諾要做花東快，對不對？所以他也依照程序在國民黨執政的時候進行花東快可行性評估。請問一下，最後有沒有通過？"],["王部長國材：馬總統時代在102年啟動，105年確定不可行。"],["蔡委員其昌：為什麼不可行？"],["王部長國材：主要是當時他們的報告就是什麼效益等等一些問題。"],["蔡委員其昌：換言之，馬總統評估完之後就告訴花東人說，這不可行！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：那蔡政府上臺之後，是不是又再一次啟動可行性評估？"],["王部長國材：對，就是剛才蔡委員所提的，我們覺得花東整個交通建設是很重要的，所以當時交委會108年的決議，我們是有接受……"],["蔡委員其昌：可行性評估現在進行到哪裡了？"],["王部長國材：現在在做可行性，今年8月會完成可行性報告。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以換言之，我們對於花東快速道路是正在進行當中，對不對？"],["王部長國材：正在進行，對。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個建設蔡政府從109年開始，從第一個階段可行性評估開始做起，所以我們現在進行當中。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：如果可行性評估通過，下一個階段要進行什麼？"],["王部長國材：綜合規劃跟環評。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，綜合規劃跟環評如果這兩個都過了是不是就進行細部設計？"],["王部長國材：對，就會核定，然後就是編經費，開始每年做。"],["蔡委員其昌：這個就是臺灣所有重大建設、交通建設，我們一貫的行政程序就要這樣走。"],["王部長國材：對，所有的個案計畫都是走這樣。"],["蔡委員其昌：都是走這樣。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，要讓大家瞭解嘛！所以本席支持花東快速道路要進行可行性評估，而且速度要快，到底可不可行，因為這個要給花東人一條安全回家的路、要讓花東的交通建設更完善，賴總統也支持，蕭副總統也支持，蔡總統也支持，而且現在正在進行當中，要讓大家去瞭解嘛！","好，但本席反對什麼，本席反對的是破壞憲法權力分立的原則，現在都在進行，為什麼要用一個條例來做？因為很簡單，為什麼我們的憲法裡面規定立法委員不可以要求增列預算，其實就是權力分立的概念嘛！這個條例裡面要求要編2,500億，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["蔡委員其昌：用法律案來包這個預算案嘛！好，如果這個權力分立的原則被破壞，如果你們決定要破壞這個權力分立，我不講憲法，這個有沒有違憲反正最後要釋憲，但本席只講一個東西，如果這個案子過了，如果交通部也都同意的話，那你要趕快來跟本席講，本席有請辦公室寫了1個案子叫臺中重大建設特別條例，大概1兆，我算了一下我們有捷運南線、捷運橘線……捷運好多條嘛！這個是林市長、盧市長都列的，我們有國道4號要銜接西濱快速道路，我們有生活圈道路要接74號，這是臺中的最大環，我算一算大概1兆，而且我覺得交通部如果過了，剛剛很多委員，剛下去的魯明哲委員他也提了大竹交流道高架化，他其實也應該提一個大竹交流道高架化建設特別條例，不然的話，魯委員回去一定被人家罵，為什麼？傅委員可以提這個，那其實大家都可以提，也可以過啊！我就用這個方式，大家來提嘛，特別預算你要早早通知我們，我也跟你們交通部爭取很多，你也不見得什麼事都答應我啊，不要說我現在是委員，我當副院長時跟你要求，你也沒有每件事都答應我，我也很火大啊！我要為我們大臺中的建設來爭取，剛剛好多委員都問到他們家鄉的交通建設，你不可以厚此薄彼，這樣過了之後，你要通知大家都可以用特別建設條例來要求要多少預算，我也是法律案，我裡面只寫1兆而已，不會在預算審查再加1兆，不會，我會用法律案來規範1兆。","我作為臺中市的立法委員，我應該為大臺中來爭取，就像我也很願意為花東的鄉親講話一樣，案子進行中，你們要快速、要趕快，不然傅委員一定一直在爭取，這也合理，他為花東、花蓮的鄉親講話，這有什麼不合理？合理啊！但是如果可以用這種破壞憲法分立原則的方式來處理這件事情，那本席也要求要這樣來做，全臺灣、全立法委員、朝野政黨，輸人不輸陣啊！那我看你交通部也不用做了啦，每年預算都按照特別條例直接去執行就好了嘛。所以要趕快過，要趕快討論會不會過，你們當然有程序，到底會不會破壞環境，對於原住民保留地，原住民的部落會議會不會通過，這個本席不知道，但是我覺得站在交通部的立場，你們要積極趕快去溝通、協調，馬政府時代已經否決這個案子，蔡政府時代重啟對花東人的照顧，但是行政效率上你要去追，讓花東人有一條快速安全回家的道路。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：其實立法院過去蕭委員也很努力在講這個事情，加油啦！好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我再次強調，我支持花東快速道路可行性評估，進行當中要加速，但我反對破壞憲法權力分立原則，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝蔡委員。"],["主席：謝謝蔡其昌副院長。傅委員你去討論一下……"],["傅委員崐萁：蔡其昌副院長提的1兆我們全黨支持。"],["蔡委員其昌：太好了、太好了。"],["主席：好啦，我現在不知道怎麼當召委了，現在我們連國旗都從青天白日滿地紅變成青天白日滿地綠了，都沒事啦！"],["陳委員素月：五星旗也是綠啊。"],["主席：所以民進黨那個臺灣可以變藍的，不要變綠的。","欣純委員，素月委員講完就要休息10分鐘。"],["何委員欣純：好，沒關係，要10分鐘哦？"],["主席：我剛剛講10點半，因為素月委員來了，我不好意思。"],["何委員欣純：好。"],["主席：下一位請陳素月委員。詢答結束後休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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這個要跟大家說清楚"},{"start":70.151,"end":92.789,"text":"我看很多委員的質詢對你們的業務不是太了解好像一副蔡政府這8年來對花東的人漠不關心交通建設投入3000億3000億的交通建設好部長過去花東快的歷史我們今天討論花東快過去花東快的歷史"},{"start":95.067,"end":116.822,"text":"馬英九總統他也做過他也承諾要做花東快對不對所以他也依照程序在國民黨執政的時候進行花東快的可行性評估請問一下最後在有沒有通過他是102年在馬總統時代102年啟動105年確定說不可行不可行好那為什麼不可行"},{"start":118.251,"end":120.953,"text":"蔡政府上台之後是不是又再一次啟動可行性評估?"},{"start":135.001,"end":155.86,"text":"我們是覺得就是剛才這個蔡委員所提的我們就覺得花東的這個整個的交通建設是很重要的所以當時在臨時這個交為108年的這個結議我們是有我們是有現在進行到哪裡的現在在做可行性在今年8月會完成這個可行性報告"},{"start":156.26,"end":176.613,"text":"所以換言之我們現在對於花東快速道路正在進行當中這個建設蔡政府從109年開始從第一個階段可行性評估開始做起所以我們現在進行當中如果可行性評估通過下一個階段要進行什麼綜合規劃跟環評對綜合規劃跟環評如果這兩個都過了是不是就進行細部設計對就核定"},{"start":182.196,"end":182.837,"text":"對,所有的個案計畫都是走這樣子。"},{"start":193.476,"end":217.882,"text":"要讓大家瞭解嘛所以本席啊支持花東快速道路啊要進行可行性評估而且速度要快到底可不可行因為這個要給花東人一條安全回家的路嘛要讓花東的交通建設更完善嘛賴總統也支持啊蕭副總統也支持啊蔡總統也支持而且現在正在進行當中啊要讓大家去了解嘛"},{"start":218.562,"end":239.511,"text":"好但本席反對什麼本席反對的是破壞憲法權利分立的這個原則現在都在進行啊那為什麼要用一個條例來做因為很簡單為什麼我們的憲法裡面規定不可以編不可以要立法院委員不可以要求政令預算他是就限列權利分立的概念嗎"},{"start":242.251,"end":253.226,"text":"這個條例裡面要求要編2500億對不對用法律案來包這個預算案嘛那如果這個權力分立的原則被破壞"},{"start":254.4,"end":279.751,"text":"如果你們決定要破壞這個權力分立我不講憲法啦就這有沒有違憲吼反正最後要釋憲啦最後要釋憲啦吼但本席只講一個東西如果這個案子過了如果要交通部也都同意的話那你要趕快來跟本席講本席有請辦公室編列寫了一個案子叫臺中重大建設特別條例大概一兆啦我算了一下我們有捷運南線捷運局線"},{"start":281.471,"end":306.679,"text":"結運好多條嘛這個是盧市長列的林市長盧市長都列的我們有那個國道4號要銜接那個西濱快速道路啊我們有生活圈的道路要接74號這是台中的最大環啊我算一算大概一兆而且我覺得你交通部如果過了剛剛很多委員剛剛下去魯明哲委員他也提了啊大足交流道高價化他其實也應該提一個大足"},{"start":308.213,"end":314.213,"text":"這個交流到高價化建設特別條例不然的話如果委員回去一定給人家罵為什麼"},{"start":315.663,"end":341.294,"text":"副委員可以提這個那其實大家都可以過阿我就用這個方式大家就來提嘛特別預算你要找找找要通知我們我也很多跟你們交通部爭取你也不見得什麼事都答應我阿不要講我現在是委員我當副院長跟你要求你也沒有每件事答應我我也很火大阿我要為我們大台中的建設來爭取嘛剛剛好多委員我看都問到他們家鄉的交通建設阿"},{"start":342.947,"end":360.537,"text":"你不可以厚恥薄筆啊這樣過了之後你要通知大家都可以用特別建設條例來直接要求多少預算我也是法律案喔我裡面只寫一兆而已我也是法律案我不會在你預算審查裡面再跟你加一兆不會我會用法律案來規範一兆"},{"start":362.455,"end":380.872,"text":"我作為台中市的立法委員我應該為大台中來爭取啊就像我也很願意為花東的鄉親來講話一樣嘛案子進行中嘛你們要快速要趕快嘛不然副委員一定一直在爭取這合理嘛他為花東的花蓮的鄉親講話這有什麼不合理啊"},{"start":381.854,"end":401.349,"text":"但是如果可以用這種破壞憲法分立原則來處理這個事情那你本席也要要求要這樣來做啊全台灣全立法院草野政黨不能輸人不輸丁啊那我看你交通部你也不用做了啦你就免走你就黨內預算都按照特別條例直接去執行就好了嘛"},{"start":402.472,"end":425.146,"text":"所以要趕快過你要趕快討論會不會過這裡你要當然有程序嘛到底會不會破壞什麼環境到底對原住民保留地原住民的部落會議會不會通過這個本席不知道但是我覺得站在交通部立場你要積極趕快的去溝通協調馬政府時代已經否決了這個案子蔡政府時代重啟對花東人的照顧"},{"start":426.465,"end":427.285,"text":"謝謝蔡其昌副委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}