{"error":false,"id":["150343"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150343,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150343","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T10:43:15+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T10:54:11+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bf899a2715f04fa7a8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a6edb2bd07d2a46ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:43:15 - 10:54:11","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":618,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時43分）謝謝主席。我請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：NCC副主委。"],["主席：NCC翁副主委。"],["黃委員珊珊：還有數發部。"],["主席：數發部政次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委好。我想大部分的詐騙都是來自於所謂的釣魚簡訊，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該一部分吧。"],["黃委員珊珊：尤其是假冒銀行、假冒投資，我的手機已經沒有什麼朋友會傳真正的簡訊，因為大家都用其他的通訊軟體，來的簡訊幾乎不是借錢就是詐騙，我看到去年9月份金管會銀行局曾經說，銀行公會訂定自律規範，發送簡訊的話，只可以連結到官網進行廣告的宣傳、提醒告知，不可以要求民眾輸入任何的交易資訊，這是金管會的政策，是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是，主委，我每天還是會接到我的銀行發簡訊，說你的訊息怎麼樣，連結之後，還是叫我去打身分證字號去查轉帳的結果，簡訊不是不能再有這些東西了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想確認一下那個不是詐騙。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是詐騙，但是銀行沒有按照銀行局的要求來辦。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是不是請局長說明一下？"],["黃委員珊珊：還有發生，而且每天都在發生。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，如果有這個情況，那個規範怎麼……"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，我們當時其實是希望銀行在發重要……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以只是軟性的要求，沒有任何強制力，是嗎？像我看到了，我可能不會上去，但民眾還是會上去，這種釣魚的可能還是會上當，好不好？如果銀行局真的有這樣的要求，就是按照規定請所有的銀行都照辦。"],["莊局長琇媛：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個部分是數發部，我們有很多的政府部門已經用短碼了，這些銀行可不可以要求他們也用短碼來做相關的處理？因為短碼比較不容易被引到詐騙集團那邊去，對吧？"],["李次長懷仁：是，跟委員報告，我們這個禮拜會跟公股銀行討論，原則上公股銀行就會導入。"],["黃委員珊珊：公股銀行一定要做，請問金管會，我們也希望民間銀行來做，這並不難，對吧？"],["李次長懷仁：委員，我這邊稍微補充說明，民間銀行我們之前有接觸，民間銀行有自己的商業考量，他們想用自己的短碼。"],["黃委員珊珊：也可以，只要有短碼，這部分可不可以請數發部跟NCC一起在簡訊管理上希望他們都申請短碼？"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：報告委員，這部分假使是商用的短碼，NCC現在跟電信業者還有簡訊平臺的代發業者已經商討了，會有一個6碼的……"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["翁副主任委員柏宗：民營銀行的部分，我們正在推動，我們會推動電信的信任產業，讓它能發展。"],["黃委員珊珊：當簡訊已經成為詐騙集團最好的工具的時候，短碼這件事情現在立刻就可以減少一大半的簡訊詐騙，所以金管會對於銀行的要求，我們至少要求合法的銀行納入所謂的短碼部分，我覺得進度要更快一些。"],["黃主任委員天牧：包括您剛才垂詢的，不好意思！在個人的簡訊上，我們對公會的規範會再要求強化。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，這是第一點。","第二個部分，時間暫停，請法務部也一起。"],["主席：請法務部黃謀信常次。"],["黃委員珊珊：今天的打詐綱領1.5，我們看到很多報告，法務部裡面有一筆錢是要建立所謂的AI分析平臺，是嗎？"],["黃次長謀信：報告委員，是。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，你要做的AI是把目前的相關資料用人工智慧做一些統計分析，但是你有沒有來自銀行端、金管會或者是虛擬資產相關的資訊？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，我們這筆AI平臺的費用編在調查局，事實上就是要嫁接我們正在建的金融平臺的一些資料，透過這個系統嫁接到調查局。"],["黃委員珊珊：金管會黃主委，現在打詐應該是全國最重要的一件事，我們打詐裡面最重要的是錢，我們不是要抓那個人，我們主要是要把錢留在帳戶裡面或者讓它流不出去，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：人也很重要，要跟檢調合作。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以重點是抓到人，但是抓到人沒有用，因為錢追不回來，現在的問題在於銀行端，如果可以在臨櫃攔截就攔截住了，但如果沒有在臨櫃攔截，等到警示帳戶的時候，警示帳戶的錢早就出去了，所以我們現在打詐除了阻絕相關的詐騙來源之外，最重要的是把錢留在帳戶裡面，讓它流不出去、讓詐騙集團拿不到錢，整個詐騙的犯罪才不會繼續猖獗，這才是我覺得很重要的一塊。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這也是我們努力的目標。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在全球國際防制洗錢組織在推動一個AI的預警模式，我們法務部看起來是比較後端的，現在國際上是前端的人工智慧預警模式。現在金管會有相關的警示帳戶資料，銀行也都有，法務部也有這些被詐騙的受害者資料，我們從金管會所有相關的警示帳戶，還有接下來的這些訊息都可以看得出來，我講一個簡單的例子，上一次的im.B受害人表示，有一個他們匯錢進去的個人帳戶在那一年進出57億，這個帳戶非常明顯異常，可是我們沒有任何預警機制，一個帳戶大量進出五十幾億的款項，我們整個銀行體制沒有任何的預警措施。所以主委，我們現在要做的不單單只是銀行臨櫃，臨櫃沒有警示帳戶也不能禁止人家領錢或禁止人家匯款，但是如果一個帳戶已經離譜到這種情況，我們是不是應該有一個預警機制？國際防制洗錢機制已經開始往這個方向處理，現在好像是富邦銀行有一個相關的鷹眼聯盟，是嗎？銀行局要代表說明一下嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實委員垂詢的方向也是我們努力的方向，不論你說的鷹眼或是什麼……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我的意思是，主委，國際已經是這個方向了，銀行也在做了，法務部也編錢了，你們也有1.5的綱領了，我們是不是要做一個國家級的預警機制？用人工智慧把所有可能已經發生的警示帳戶也好、受害人帳戶也好，還有剛剛講到大量短時間進出的，讓銀行可以把這些訊息都拿出來訓練機器做出預警方式，如果這個帳戶常常這樣，我們要有預警的狀況，這樣的話我們就可以授權相關的單位做一些monitor，甚至直接阻斷它的出金，流進去的錢要有限制地流出。"],["黃主任委員天牧：現階段有……"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，我要做的是除了剛剛講的，我們希望能建立一個國家級的AI預警機制，而不是靠著銀行，連富邦銀行都在做的事，中華民國政府應該扛起來做。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員……"],["黃委員珊珊：我的意思是不只有打詐辦公室，而是真的要做國家可以做的，為什麼要國家來做？因為銀行只能拿到自己的資料，銀行拿不到法務部的資料，而且銀行拿不到虛擬資產的資料、拿不到第三方支付的資料，如果可以由金管會、法務部來做，你們都要往這個方向走，我希望建立一個國家級的人工智慧預警機制，我們才能把錢留在那個奇怪的帳戶，讓它流不出去，抓到人才抓得到錢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員的垂詢我覺得也是大家努力的方向，不過牽涉到跨部會，我們會把這個構想帶到打詐平臺去做討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果富邦銀行做得到，如果國際防制洗錢組織都在做，法務部也編了這個錢，其實就是去把這些資訊嫁接起來，就像剛剛講的。第二個，虛擬資產、第三方支付等各部分變成一個平臺，而這個平臺的帳戶由金管會操控，我們才有機會把錢留下來，當它從這個水庫流到那個水庫之後，你再花多少人力、物力都是沒有用的，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，雖然520才要交接，但我希望一個月之內由法務部、數發部甚至是NCC、金管會，就所謂的人工智慧怎麼處理這個預警機制，不應該發生一個帳戶進出五十幾億卻沒有人發現，銀行通報也沒有用，因為沒有犯罪、沒有警示，五十幾億就這樣進進出出、來來去去，被害人看到做何感想？他沒有犯罪，但他騙了那麼多投資人的錢，最後抓出來，他還可以吃香喝辣，他們的人還可以開跑車，完全沒有任何的方式去限制他，我覺得這是一個很可怕的事，好嗎？主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們照委員提示的方向，跨部會去做一些溝通，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：希望這個1.5不只是一個單純的機制，我希望它是一個真正有效的國家級AI預警機制，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導。"],["主席：接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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主委我們現在要做的不只是單單的只是銀行零貴啊零貴沒有警示帳戶他也不能禁止人家領錢或者是禁止人家匯款"},{"start":418.3,"end":434.5,"text":"但是如果一個帳戶已經離譜到這種情況我們是不是應該有一個預警機制所以國際洗錢機制他們已經開始往這個方向處理那現在好像銀行部分是富邦銀行有一個相關的因緣"},{"start":435.7,"end":435.84,"text":"主委"},{"start":451.08,"end":467.149,"text":"國際已經是這個方向了銀行也在做了政府、法務部也編了錢了你們也有1.5的綱領了我們是不是要做一個國家級的預警機制用人工智慧把這種可能已經發生的所有的警視帳戶也好受害人帳戶也好還有剛剛講的大量短時間進出的"},{"start":471.951,"end":493.438,"text":"讓銀行可以把這些訊息都能拿上來我們訓練機器去做出預警的方式這個帳戶常常這樣我們要預警的狀況如果是這樣的話我們就可以授權相關的單位去做一些monitor甚至直接阻斷他的出金不讓他流進去的錢要讓他有限制的流出"},{"start":494.352,"end":510.078,"text":"主委,我要做的是除了剛剛講的我們希望能夠建立一個國家級的AI預警機制而不是靠著銀行連富邦銀行都在做的事中華民國政府應該扛起來做"},{"start":511.994,"end":528.71,"text":"主任我的意思不是只有打詐辦公室而是真的要把這些國家可以為什麼要國家來做因為銀行只能拿到他自己的資料銀行拿不到法務部的資料而且銀行拿不到虛擬資產的資料拿不到第三方支付的資料"},{"start":529.551,"end":544.472,"text":"如果可以由金管會、法務部你們都要往這個方向走我希望建立的是一個國家級的人工智慧預警機制我們才能把錢留在那個奇怪的賬戶讓他留不出去抓到人才抓得到錢"},{"start":545.868,"end":546.008,"text":"黃柱蕾"},{"start":563.883,"end":566.924,"text":"我希望在雖然5月520才要交接但是我希望一個月之內法務部"},{"start":592.329,"end":617.046,"text":"訴發部甚至NCC甚至金管會就所謂的人工智慧怎麼來處理這個預警機制不應該發生一個賬戶進出五十幾億沒有人發現銀行通報了沒有用因為他沒有犯罪他沒有警示他就進進出出五十幾億就這樣來來去去被害人看到了你做何感想他沒有犯罪啊"},{"start":617.927,"end":618.027,"text":"謝謝委員指導謝謝"},{"start":651.977,"end":654.167,"text":"接著請李坤臣立委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}