{"error":false,"id":["150350"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150350,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150350","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T11:08:39+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T11:16:26+08:00","影片長度":"00:07:47","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b827e71461202223c0ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a645bf4d8e7f7c77355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:08:39 - 11:16:26","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":740,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時8分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：黃委員，你好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。我延續上一次質詢的主題，對於國發基金去投入產業的升級，我個人絕對是支持的，但……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：但前提是一定都要本於專業評估，絕對不可以拿國發基金的錢來進行政治酬庸或是搞政治關係。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我同意，完全同意。"],["黃委員國昌：最近國發會一直在跟臺灣社會大眾講一個新聞，說國發基金去年大賺289億，我要請問主委，大賺這289億有幾個公司是在蔡政府任內的時候決定要投資的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：如果說比較大的投資，我們在這四年來主要是投陽明海運。"],["黃委員國昌：陽明海運本來就是國家的啊！我現在在講的是新的投資標的，陽明海運最大股東本來就是交通部嘛，我現在在講的是新的投資標的。因為我們要檢討國發基金的績效，就要一任、一任來看，你不要把過去的投資績效算在這一任的政府任內嘛，這樣並不公平，所以我問的是什麼？我問的是在蔡政府任內決定要投資的標的，有哪幾家過去這幾年是賺錢的？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：不是，報告委員，因為陽明是後來在它剩下10塊錢的時候，我們現金增資去支持它……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！我現在不跟你爭執陽明，陽明算你的好了，還有哪幾家？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為通常投資會有一段的成長過程嘛，剛開始都是觸發期，後來才會有營收，台積電剛開始也是不賺錢的，是後來……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，我現在也沒有在跟你爭執台積電，我現在具體的看嘛，就是蔡政府所投資的投資標的有哪幾家過去是賺錢的？這就是我的問題。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我剛才提到了，陽明是賺錢的。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我直接秀蔡政府國發基金的投資績效給你看，譬如說像台杉水牛，一開始賠錢，後來賺錢，這個我都把它算在賺錢的範圍之中，因為國發基金什麼時候投進去的，這些我透過一些資訊，我可以收得到，賺錢的就這6家。我接下來給主委看賠錢的有哪些，賠錢的有下面這19家，這些是蔡政府上臺以後決定要投資的標的，我把它全部臚列出來了，我覺得這個才是在討論我們國發基金盈虧時一個負責任的作法。我今天要挑戰的是什麼？我今天要挑戰的事情是，包括過去我們一直在批評的如興，這個投資的決策到底是怎麼做的？包括之前也有委員關心的東貝，這兩個案子現在都有刑事訴訟，也進入了刑事訴訟程序了。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["黃委員國昌：第三個，我非常關心的就是聯合再生，因為在2016到2020的時候，我上次也跟主委報告過，那個時候民進黨自己的立委就在質疑了，為什麼要去投資這一家虧損連連、根本沒有競爭力的公司？什麼時候國發基金竟然變成了紓困基金？我上次為什麼跟主委說我反對用國家的資源搞政商關係？我今天非常負責任地跟主委報告，投了聯合再生以後，結果聯合再生是朝中有人嗎？什麼事情都可以用牽的嗎？我今天負責任地講，今天當政府拿了這麼多納稅人的錢投一家公司，這家公司的董事長去擔任蔡英文綠能後援會的總會長，這件事情從政治上來講，我個人就覺得非常不妥當，但我知道這不是你的權責。","第二個部分，誰決定投資的？這件事情追問了非常久，我上次質詢的時候也公開的點出來，在背後牽線的就是張景森，結果公司成立，我們注資了以後，三合一了以後，裡面是一片綠友友，連張景森自己的弟弟都跑去當獨董！主委，你真的覺得這樣子適合嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為這個案子當時我沒有……，這個董事長我也不認識啦，重要的是我們是要用公司治理的方式儘量把它監督好，這是我們國發基金的職責。之前您提到經濟部有一個案子的那個部分，我們也希望不要這樣子，所以我後來做了一些糾正，這個是我們可以做的。"],["黃委員國昌：好！主委，我知道啦，這背後真正的推手不是你。我這個人的個性是有一說一，我話會講得很清楚，但上次我質詢的時候你很生氣，你說……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：很抱歉！"],["黃委員國昌：這個飯你有沒有去吃？我負責任的跟主委講啦，內部的秘書要約這個飯局，他們要付錢，資料我都調出來了，我不是一個會看照片說故事的人。他那一天就講了啊，到請客樓包廂約了誰？張景森。張景森出面約了誰？約了潘孟安、約了你。所以我才跟你求證嘛！我可以很肯定的跟主委報告，那一天你有去，我除了有這個書面證據以外，我還有證人，那一天你有去，今天可以證實這件事嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，報告委員，我真的是忘記了，因為我跟這位董事長不認識、不熟……"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：所以在我的記憶裡面就不會有這樣的記憶，如果本來就是我的朋友，我當然是平常吃飯可能會有……"],["黃委員國昌：是，誰要你去吃這個飯的？這是我的問題。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我真的忘記了。"],["黃委員國昌：你真的忘記了？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係，因為我在……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：我還回頭去查我的行事曆，我的行事曆就沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：我再回復一下你的記憶。現在主席站起來了，我們下一次繼續。今天我讓主委回去複習的功課是，農電共生的這個專案，在你擔任政委的期間當中，你有沒有主責過？農電共生主委聽得懂吧？農電共生的這個專案，在您當主委的時候，你有沒有經手過？因為我知道他們一直在推農電共生嘛，連蔡英文要張景森提的報告都是洪傳獻找人寫的！我的老天啊！我們國家的綠能政策什麼時候變得這麼腐敗啊！竟然找業者來幫我們的政委寫國家有關於農電共生的政策，這樣對嗎？","好，謝謝。"],["主席：黃委員，時間到了，謝謝。","謝謝黃國昌委員，接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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