{"error":false,"id":["150359"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150359,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150359","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-19-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[19],"委員會代碼:str":["經濟委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T11:29:12+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T11:38:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:12","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bf813bdaa6a3a74150ea6c444258f7e78f8ba9b0039caa7a6c58aa13344394d615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:29:12 - 11:38:24","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於行政院主管：行政院國家發展基金、離島建設基金、花東地區永續發展基金及促進轉型正義基金。(詢答)\n二、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關國家發展委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等7案。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時29分）謝謝主席。我們是不是有請龔主委？"],["主席：請龔主委。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委好。我今天想要跟主委討論一下臺灣的移工政策，因為畢竟國發會是站在整個政策制定的比較上位階，然後負責去統整，把政策訂出來。主委，你知道現在臺灣的失聯移工可以說是非常的多，這個主委你清楚嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：好像有不同的估算，好像有6萬、7萬、8萬這樣一些不同的數據。"],["蔡委員易餘：我這邊從移民署的是有一個8萬的數字，看起來男女都有，那這樣的失聯移工，主委，我想請問以臺灣的狀況，其他國家移工會有像這樣這麼多嗎？比例上。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：其他的國家像美國來講，它就有很多的偷渡客……"],["蔡委員易餘：美國偷渡客是比較特殊，因為畢竟它有邊界嘛！它是有邊界的問題；那臺灣不一樣，臺灣是一個海島國家，這樣的海島國家還會有失聯移工，那只有呈現一個狀況──政策問題，讓這些移工很有可能會選擇失聯，就是政策的問題。","所以我現在想進一步的跟主委講，移工他們飄洋過海來到臺灣，事實上就是一個目的，他們想要來臺灣賺錢，多賺一點錢，他們覺得臺灣的薪水夠，可以讓他們賺到錢後返回他們的國家，大概就是可以賺到比他原本國家還要多的錢。但是他來臺灣後會選擇失聯，有可能第一個，他受到不合理的勞動條件，他覺得遇到這位老闆，讓他做的工作超出他能負擔的，逼得說他不能待這裡。但是我們知道我們這幾年對於移工的政策，包括移工他可以選擇去更換他的雇主，這一點事實上如果遇到比較差的勞動條件，這個東西已經有辦法解決，不過還是會有這麼多失聯移工。","所以我要跟主委講，事實上對於移工政策，我具體建議，為什麼我們不能同意讓移工做第二份工作？為什麼他來臺灣就只能做那一份工作？假如他的雇主同意，他就他的正常工時之外，在假日禮拜六、禮拜天想到另外一個地方去做短期的工作，為什麼我們不能同意他做？為什麼我們就不能由國家，由勞動部也好，我們來成立一個類似人力派遣的公司，然後讓這一些移工經過雇主的同意之後，他可以去登記，登記後他可以選擇在禮拜六、禮拜天的時候，再另外做一份工作，這樣的話就會大大降低他想要逃跑、他想要變成失聯移工的誘因，主委，我這樣講有錯嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：報告委員，因為移工一樣在我們勞動基準法的保障範圍之內，所以他每一個月、每一個禮拜的工作時間事實上也受到限制。"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啦！工作時間是指在他的同一份工作會有勞動基準法，我現在也不是要打破勞動基準法，讓他變超時工作。基本上現在移工所有的工作條件，包括他的基本薪資、工時、加班上限，這個都要受到勞動基準法限制。但是移工如果在他的工作之外，想要兼差做第二份工作，他的雇主也同意，他可以在這個時間內多賺一點錢，為什麼不同意讓他做呢？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：也許我們來跟勞動部討論一下，但是這個還是不能違反勞基法，在勞基法的法律限制……"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，我們不是要針對移工打破勞基法……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，所以如果是法律……"],["蔡委員易餘：我會講這個就是說，事實上在我們遇到很多現實的狀況……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我同意如果在勞基法的法律允許的彈性之下，是不是可以有這樣……"],["蔡委員易餘：當然啊！在勞基法之外嘛！"],["龔主任委員明鑫：對，我們來跟勞動部稍微討論一下。"],["蔡委員易餘：因為我跟你說，像很多農業缺工，根本都是短期的缺工，在我們鄉下種菜頭的，要挖菜頭、挖蘆筍，那都是需要勞力密集，但是他的工作時間頂多就只有那一個月……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：是，瞭解。"],["蔡委員易餘：所以如果那一個月可以去兼差，讓他們可以去兼著做，或者是去採茶，他可以兼差、他可以兼著做，平常的時候有他主要的工作，如果另外農忙的時候，他可以去幫忙一下。這對很多需要移工的人可以解決他的問題，對移工自己本身又可以增加收入，為什麼不可以呢？","沒關係，我的意思不是說要打破勞基法，我只是要跟主委說，我們應該再去思考，因為臺灣的缺工是很明顯的，缺工的狀況又很明顯的扎實的在社會所有的層次、所有的產業，跟他們講話，一見面就跟我們講缺工，缺工的問題我們沒辦法解決，我們現在說要開放更多移工，後來也都變成失聯移工，我覺得與其這樣，不如在政策上進一步去檢討看看有什麼樣的方式，讓移工到了臺灣很滿意，該賺的錢都有賺到，他們在勞力許可的時候，可以盡量去拚，不是嗎？"],["龔主任委員明鑫：這個部分是不是讓我們跟勞動部來討論一下，看看有什麼樣的想法，我們再回給委員。"],["蔡委員易餘：主委，你們在討論這個議題的時候，應該有兩個層次，第一個就是臺灣事實上確實缺工，而且這個缺工絕對是我們現在開放的產業，我們開放很多項……"],["龔主任委員明鑫：農業的部分的確是缺工。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是有些產業還是有缺工的困難，例如飯店裡面缺的是哪一種？房務管理，它找不到本勞啊！本勞去做房務管理的意願越來越低，這個部分如果可以讓移工來幫忙，也是一個解決，但是這部分我們還沒有開放。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：服務業的部分因為勞動部有整體性的看法，但是我覺得農業這個部分比較單純，因為農業本來就有開放。"],["蔡委員易餘：農業本來就開放，但是產業呢？像我那天遇到做煙火的工廠，它是合法的煙火工廠，不是非法的，它的煙火甚至銷到美國迪士尼，結果煙火工廠說它們沒有辦法申請移工，全部都要請本國籍的，你也知道現在煙火工廠也很少人想去做。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：因為它是一個特許的、比較敏感的。"],["蔡委員易餘：是敏感沒有錯，但是你讓它沒辦法請移工，它沒辦法生存啊！他也跟我說沒辦法生存，像這種不讓它有機會申請移工，我覺得很沒有意義啊！","第二個，現在我們限制移工只能單一雇主，這件事情移工也有很多自己的想法，他們如果想不出方法就是跑給我們追，變失聯移工，我覺得如果我們的政策能夠在符合勞基法的情況之下解決這些狀況，讓失聯移工減少，社會的安全、整體的安全性也可以在合理的監管之下，我覺得這是百利無一害，請你參考看看。"],["龔主任委員明鑫：農業的部分，我再跟勞動部討論看看。"],["蔡委員易餘：你們討論看看，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員。","接下來請顏寬恒、顏寬恒，顏寬恒委員不在。","黃健豪、黃健豪，黃健豪委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","游顥、游顥，游顥委員不在。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-5","speakers":["邱議瑩","邱志偉","張啓楷","謝衣鳯","鄭天財Sra 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