{"error":false,"id":["150360"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150360,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150360","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T11:28:44+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T11:39:27+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bc94096e6675795fe8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a65e531c9f561acde25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:28:44 - 11:39:27","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":809,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時28分）主席、各位列席委員。主席，我想請主計長、內政部及法務部。"],["主席：請主計長、請法務部黃謀信常次。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：黃常次好。","另外再請內政部警政署副署長。"],["主席：請內政部警政署李副署長。"],["顏委員寬恒：主計長，政府公布在4月1號要調漲電價，這是全國的人都知道了，1,300萬戶漲定了，平均漲幅11%，不分級距，都要為這個錯誤的政策，光電弊案、綠能弊案，還有台電虧損連連等等，這些都要由民眾來買單。政府在2023年、2024年分別編列預算，增資台電1,500億、1,000億，更在2023年用超徵的收入即人民的納稅錢，以特別預算來補貼500億，那這一次電價調整，是已經在政院補貼的1,000億以上的基礎再漲價，就是光在這兩年，行政院已經對台電支援了4,000億，而這4,000億都是我們的納稅錢，都是人民的納稅錢。電價跟民生攸關，息息相關，反正電價一漲，民生萬物皆漲，未來台電漲價一定是常態，不會只有今年，也不會只有明年，搞不好下半年又要再漲。所影響的物價，還有所有的通膨，從上游到下游都會影響零售商或是民生的一些生活，最後的成本都轉嫁給消費者。民眾最無奈，最後還要替執政黨擦屁股，都是我們的老百姓，錯誤的政策不斷，貪污腐敗的一大堆，案子也不知道查到什麼地方……"],["朱主計長澤民：報告委員，沒有貪污啦，我們不曉得公務員有貪污……"],["顏委員寬恒：還沒有被揭露的還有很多，這不是你的事情，但是我要講給你聽，所有的成本都要百姓吸收，所以我們是替百姓說話，這情何以堪，真的是很可憐。現在就進入今天的主題。","我看了主計總處的報告，為提升我國打擊詐欺犯罪效能等，設立行政院打詐辦公室，臺灣高檢署、法務部調查局、六都直轄市、調查處機動站、警政署等等的部會機關都成立相關的打詐平台。我要舉個例子，警方在去年破獲大型詐騙集團的洗錢機房本部，當初在攻堅的時候，這些第一線的員警還用垂釣的方式來突破歹徒的機房，冒著生命危險引起社會極大的關注。該集團以匯款洗錢詐欺，不法所得超過90億，法院將機房的20名共犯分別判處六個月到一年兩個月徒刑，而且全部緩刑，這是社會的期待嗎？就媒體報導，尤其過去我們都知道，臺灣人詐騙輸出，臺灣人在國外詐欺被押解回臺的案例，多數刑期都在數個月到一、兩年不等，而且大多都能夠易科罰金，讓辦案人員、基層員警不知如何是好，尤其對我們民眾而言也是一樣。與其說把這些人押回受審，但事實上回到臺灣就是享受，等於是回來享福。我想請問主計長、次長和副署長，司法對於詐騙案件做出的回應，是不是都在打臉執法人員？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個可能請法務部常次說明……"],["顏委員寬恒：請常次。"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，委員提到的其實是我們審判結果的問題，就是法院的量刑不符合民眾期待的問題，但量刑問題基本上是司法院主管，也是法官的核心事項，法務部不敢過問。但就法務部的職掌來講，對法院的判決，檢察官是有監督的責任，所以對法院的判決過低，或量刑過低，我們要求檢察官在量刑的時候，在法院論告的時候，必須要把相關的量刑因子……"],["顏委員寬恒：好，次長，你的意思是說，因為要求的是檢察官，而判刑的是法官，基層員警就是不敢過問，不敢多加要求，是不是？"],["黃次長謀信：不是……"],["顏委員寬恒：那要怎麼辦？我們永遠抓不完啊！對不對？你抓越多，他放越多嘛！"],["黃次長謀信：制度設計上，對於法院的判決，檢察官要監督他的判決，所以他判決……"],["顏委員寬恒：制度是這樣沒有錯，那這個不能要求嗎？我們現在就是要求法官，我們對法官還有檢察官一樣都在要求，從2020詐騙案件2.3萬件，金額42.5億，2022年已經變2.9萬件，金額69.6億，但這個可能是有揭露的，更多的或許我們不曉得，我覺得應該是更多，多到我們可能不知道的情況。2023年一整年被詐騙的金額累積88.78億，是創史上新高，按照這個發展，我想會破百億，今年可能就破百億了。像這種情況，這些詐欺的及洗錢的正犯、共犯，不管犯了幾條罪，都會被競合成一條罪，只要坦白，最後法院再用緩刑的方式，讓這些詐欺洗錢的人得以免去牢獄之災。預算編一編，抓了又放人，一堆易科罰金緩刑，更不要說詐欺罪明明有組織犯罪的法條可以用，但不去適用新的法條，法定刑是處一年以上七年以下，這些詐騙的都是集團式的加重詐欺罪，如果用新的法條，怎麼可能每個都輕犯？是不是這樣子？"],["黃次長謀信：跟委員報告，是要區分他是詐欺集團或是人頭帳戶的判決，還是一般車手的判決。一般車手的判決，現在法院大概量刑都在一年到兩年，占80%……"],["顏委員寬恒：對，所以我要講，你剛剛講說罪刑不相當嘛，對不對？他所犯的罪跟所判的刑期就是沒有相當，所以我們就是要檢討怎麼樣來要求，甚至如果法律不夠周延是不是要修法，那草案是不是要送過來立法院，對不對？我相信這個不分朝野都會支持啦！"],["黃次長謀信：事實上，我們在打詐專法，就刑罰的威嚇性這部分，我們是要研擬如何加強。"],["顏委員寬恒：那法務部可不可以要求檢察官從重求刑？"],["黃次長謀信：這沒有問題，跟委員報告，在檢察官這個階段，檢察官……"],["顏委員寬恒：你剛剛一開始說你們不能要求，對不對？"],["黃次長謀信：那是法院，對於法院法官，法務部當然不能夠要求，但是在檢察官偵查起訴這個階段，我們事實上要求檢察官從重的來求刑，還有能夠符合羈押的要件，檢察官也要儘量的羈押，所以我們去年度羈押的比例已經超過前年度將近一倍的比例了。"],["顏委員寬恒：對於這些犯罪集團，我們絕對不能手軟，基層員警拼命在外面抓這些詐騙人員，但是抓一個放兩個，抓越多就放越多啦，我們看到你們的報告裡面分別都有提到包括成長率多少、詐團的補獲抓獲多少，羈押的人數也成長了多少，這相對的表示犯罪率一直在增加，詐騙集團數一直在增加，被詐騙的被害人也一直在增加，其實我們不是抓越多人越高興，表示現在我們社會上每天被詐騙集團詐騙的受害人相當多，有些是沒有浮上來。","另外還有很多資料，只是時間不夠，不只是我們知道的這些詐騙，包括從租屋平台，還有手機借錢，剛剛王世堅委員也有提到，融資集團跟詐騙集團合作做假投資，然後再讓詐騙集團來討債，對於這些部分，我希望所有的執法機關以及法務部一定要負起這個責任，好不好？尤其像剛剛提到的租屋平台，不管什麼都可以騙，包括連租屋都被騙，有騙錢的、騙感情的，連遊戲帳號和很多電子支付、電商平台都有案例，尤其現在已經到了報稅的季節，這些報稅、退稅系統，還有電話通知退稅等等，民眾要如何防範？我們看到你們編了很多的費用去做這些宣導，但是有沒有落實？宣導的成效如何？這部分我想大家還要再努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","繼續請伍麗華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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因為我們抓就抓不完啊對不對 你抓越多他放越多嘛"},{"start":331.566,"end":356.055,"text":"對,制度設計上法院判決檢察官是要監督他的判決,所以他判決...上面有錯,制度是這樣沒有錯對,我們檢察官會提起上訴這不能要求嗎?我們現在就是在要求法官法官還有檢察官一樣我們都在要求說從2020詐騙案件2.3萬件,今有42.5億2022年已經變2.9萬件,今有69.6億但是這個可能是有揭露的,更多的或許我們不曉得"},{"start":357.575,"end":382.667,"text":"我覺得應該是更多啦多到我們可能不知道的一個情況2023年一整年被詐騙的金額累積88.78億是創史上新高按照這個發展我想破百億今年可能就破百億了啦那像這種情況說這些詐欺的還有洗錢的正犯共犯不管犯了幾條罪都會被淨和成一條罪"},{"start":383.827,"end":402.66,"text":"會不會進了整條罪只要坦白然後最後法院再用緩刑的方式讓這些詐欺洗錢讓他們免去牢獄之災預算被一邊抓了又放人一根罰金緩刑更不要說啦齁這個加重"},{"start":403.881,"end":417.686,"text":"詐欺明明有組織犯罪的這些法條可以用不去適用新的法條然後法定刑是一年以上七年以下這些詐騙的都是集團式的一個加重詐欺罪"},{"start":419.059,"end":444.17,"text":"如果用新的法條怎麼可能每個都侵犯?是不是這樣子?各位報告就要區分他詐欺集團他是人頭賬戶的判決還是一般車手的判決一般車手的判決現在法院大概量刑都大概一年到兩年佔80%對對對所以我要講你剛剛講的說罪行不相當嘛對不對他所犯的罪他這個可是判的刑期相對的就是欸?沒兇動"},{"start":445.63,"end":468.731,"text":"所以我們認為說我們就是要來檢討說要怎麼樣來要求甚至於如果說法律不夠周延是不是要修法對不對那草案是不是要送過來立法院我相信這個全部的不分草原都會支持阿各位報告事實上我們在打詐專法就這個刑罰的威嚇性這部分我們是要研擬如何加強性的威嚇性那法務部你們可不可以要求檢察官從眾求刑"},{"start":469.631,"end":477.177,"text":"這沒有問題這跟委員報告在檢察官這個階段檢察官徵查起訴這個階段我們事實上要求檢察官從重的來求刑還有能夠符合羈押的要件檢察官也要盡量的羈押所以我們去年度羈押的比例已經超過前年度將近一倍的比例了"},{"start":495.465,"end":514.035,"text":"對於這些犯罪集團我們絕對不能手軟你基層的員警拼命的在外面都在抓這些詐騙的人員但是抓一個放兩個我們看到說你們的那個報告裡面有分別都有提到說這個"},{"start":516.417,"end":516.577,"text":"主席"},{"start":526.621,"end":547.296,"text":"表示犯罪率一直在增加、詐騙集團數一直在增加、被詐騙、被害人也一直在增加。所以我們不是說抓越多人我們越開心,這表示說現在我們的國情、我們社會上每天被這些詐騙集團、詐騙的這些受害人是相當的多,有些是沒有浮上來。"},{"start":549.117,"end":570.569,"text":"另外我們知道因為很多的資料時間也不夠不只是我們知道的這些詐騙包括從租屋平台還有我們手機上面的這些借錢剛剛王世堅委員也有提到這個用融資集團跟詐騙集團合作假投資然後再讓詐騙集團後面來追上來討賬"},{"start":578.773,"end":606.526,"text":"來討債這一些部分我相信我希望我們所有的執法機關我們法務部你們要要求然後呢一定要負起這個責任好不好因為我們台灣我們所有的國人尤其像我們剛剛提到的這個租屋的平台不管什麼都可以騙包括連租屋都被騙騙錢的騙感情的連遊戲帳號還有很多電子支付電商平台"},{"start":607.606,"end":633.78,"text":"這些都有,包括現在已經到了報稅的季節現在是報稅的季節,所以這些報稅退稅系統還有變化通知退稅的這一些我們要民眾要如何防範宣導,我們看到你們編了很多的費用去做這些宣導但是卻有沒有落實,宣導的成效如何這部分我想大家還要再努力好不好好謝謝"},{"start":637.263,"end":642.264,"text":"下一位質詢請吳立華部委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}