{"error":false,"id":["150377"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150377,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150377","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T12:06:28+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T12:20:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:55","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bd961e1277666649d8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a62660ba6cc41290bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"12:06:28 - 12:20:23","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1009,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時6分）我是不是可以請主計長、黃主委、法務部的常次、內政部李副署長以及刑事警察局黃副局長？"],["主席：好。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我先延續一下剛才羅明才召委的議題，你覺得這一波電價漲之後，物價會不會漲？"],["朱主計長澤民：在一般的情況之下，物價會漲，只是說經濟部設計得很細緻，它的漲幅已經儘量做到最低的影響。"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得民眾的感受度會如何？因為經濟部做出來的梗圖是沒差啊！烘焙店每個月只會漲2塊錢，牛肉麵只會漲幾塊錢，你覺得最後這些成本會不會轉嫁到民眾消費身上？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為那個是民生，所以它必然會漲價，不過經濟部設計得很細緻，在小商店的話……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我提醒你，你剛才說應該會漲，只是到最後怎麼漲不曉得，你回去告訴王美花，因為按照道理說，你對於通膨的狀況、物價會漲的狀況，我覺得你在整個行政院裡面，你的敏感度應該是比誰都還要清楚。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：王美花說她會請業者不要因為電價漲就隨便亂漲，你回去跟她講清楚。"],["朱主計長澤民：據我知道……"],["李委員彥秀：到底有沒有用？人民的感受度到底會如何？會不會轉嫁到民眾消費身上？用恐嚇的就有用嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我想王部長不是恐嚇，她的意思應該是說不要惡意地漲。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有用？有沒有用？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是道德勸說，有時候也是一個很好的策略，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：道德勸說，下個月我們就會知道，你也笑了一下，下個月你就知道到底有沒有用了。","錯誤的能源政策造成台電到今年年底要虧損4,000億，或許能源配比不要配比得這麼糟糕，台電不會虧損那麼多，這個是我要講的重點，錯誤的能源政策配比，造成台電長期的虧損！我同意電價可以有一些適時的反映，但是民進黨錯誤的能源政策造成台電虧損4,000億，每一年政府都要撥補，民眾變成每一年薪水漲的幅度全部都被通膨吃掉了，這個就是我覺得今天人民很苦但政府無感最大的原因。","好，回來我今天的議題，主計長請回。物價通膨，人民很痛苦，在物價通膨之下，薪水沒有漲之下，詐騙越來越多，民眾也很辛苦，每一個詐騙案背後的數字是人民一生累積下來的積蓄，每一個詐騙的數字背後代表的是人民的血汗錢，我想在現場你們比誰都同意。於此，我今天在質詢的同時，每個禮拜我的辦公室都有接到很多被詐騙的訊息在問我怎麼辦，去報案之後，大家都問我說委員，錢可不可以追得回來？我只能告訴他恐怕很難。我想在現場的每一位，包括金管會的主委，你們比誰都清楚，錢追不回來，很不容易。","但是我要提的是，現在詐騙手法當中有三大區塊，一種是用假投資，一種是網路拍賣，另外一種是解除分期付款。假投資現在是詐騙的第一名，這些假投資背後都是利用民眾人性的貪念，或者是藉由民眾害怕恐懼的弱點去做詐騙的行為，詐騙的方式包括賣未上市的股票、投資外匯或是賣靈骨塔等等都有。民進黨政府從2016年成立打詐中心，2022年成立打詐國家隊，到2023年的打詐辦公室等等，到底有沒有具體的作用？誰可以回答我？有沒有具體的成果？誰可以回答我？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實我們今天報告裡面就已經講了，至少有三個層面，在第三個層面跨部會的部分，我就有列出來我們與數位部、內政部合作的機制，都是這一、兩年在努力達成的，包括與法務部……"],["李委員彥秀：但是你們解決的速度，我不要說破案的速度，你們再努力還跟不上這些犯罪集團氾濫的速度，所以很多外國人才說我們的電信詐騙機房很多在國外，臺灣都已經被外界批評、被外國人批評臺灣是詐騙之島。在現場這幾位，我說得沒有錯，包括我有接到幾個陳情案，有一位是教金融的大學教授，上週他到內湖的銀行分9次去提領了1,700萬，他被銀行的人攔下來說先生，你不要領那麼多，結果他還有一本小冊子，教戰守則教他對銀行人員唸說我就是要領那麼多，也就是詐騙集團有跟他講，當你領不出來或銀行人員為難你的時候，你要怎麼說錢才可以領得出來。","另外一個案子，老先生、老太太退休七十幾歲，上個禮拜他在LINE的股票詐騙社團裡面被騙了三百多萬，也來問我，我跟他講恐怕很難，我其實不太願意跟他講很難拿回來，我說先去報案，我們想辦法，但是我心裡知道不容易，所以這些問題，在現場的4位，我剛剛講的這些數字背後都是人民的血汗錢，這是誰的問題？金管會的問題？警政署的問題？誰可以回答我？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我想很多……"],["李委員彥秀：你們又有打詐辦公室、打詐國家隊，每個禮拜耶！每個禮拜這些案子在各個辦公室也好，派出所也好，都有人陳情耶！被詐騙耶！誰的問題？誰可以回答我？警政署、刑事警察局，誰的問題？沒有人敢回答哦？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，行政院各部會都在努力，我想今天提給委員會的報告，可以看得出來大家最近這一年做的事情跟今年要做的事，當然委員對我們的期待我們責無旁貸，要好好再做努力。"],["李委員彥秀：好，主委，我們有一個打詐專法要出來，4月會不會出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個專法不是我們金管會，是……"],["李委員彥秀：不然我們今天專案報告是報告假的？大家都有關係啊！不是跨部會的合作嗎？這個打詐專法如果沒有跨部會的合作也沒有用啊！"],["李副署長西河：是，打詐專法在行政院由羅政委來整合各部會，現在由我們內政部來主政。"],["李委員彥秀：4月會不會出來？"],["李副署長西河：最近有密集地在3月份跟4月初有5次會議，我們的草案訂出來……"],["李委員彥秀：這個會期會不會完成三讀？有沒有目標？"],["李副署長西河：我們現在預定4月份要提出來，我們跨部會的草案擬訂有預定在4月份儘速把它定稿。"],["李委員彥秀：行政院有沒有目標，在這個會期要完成三讀？你只要回答有或沒有，你回答我，不要浪費我的時間。"],["李副署長西河：我們在努力當中，我們在努力當中。"],["李委員彥秀：啊？"],["李副署長西河：我們在努力，很快速，我們現在在……"],["李委員彥秀：每天有那麼多受害人被詐騙耶！"],["李副署長西河：是。"],["李委員彥秀：那這個案子在兩個政府、兩個總統交接的過程，賴清德知不知道這件事情？在過渡時期，他有沒有交代在這個會期要通過，還是等520之後再通過？"],["李副署長西河：我們跨部會的……"],["李委員彥秀：你的目標是什麼？"],["李副署長西河：我們很積極地、很急地在草擬打詐專法這個草案。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有日期？沒有目標？"],["李副署長西河：我們在開會的時候，預定到4月份要提出來。"],["李委員彥秀：4月份提出來，也不知道這個會期會不會通過。","好，我要問一下LINE@，我剛剛上網查了，這些是詐騙帳號，你們都有公布，上面才90個人看而已。現在詐騙透過投資或透過LINE的，上次我問過，主委也知道，透過Google或Meta，所以我們現在都有實名制，臉書也有實名制，現在LINE的部分怎麼處理？這是我第一個問題。第二，這些詐騙的LINE ID才90個人看耶！現在透過LINE的投資詐騙也很氾濫，你們公布這些帳號才90個人看，後面有什麼具體的作為嗎？可能有什麼具體的作為嗎？"],["黃副局長壬聰：有關觀看人數過少的部分，我們會再加強來做宣導。另外，在查詢的部分，我們在165的LINE的app裡面可以供民眾來查詢，這是另外一個可以查詢的管道，以上。"],["李委員彥秀：因為我們之前都有要求實名制，包括Google，包括臉書，包括Meta，我們都有慢慢要求實名制，至於LINE的部分怎麼去跟總公司溝通，減少這些詐騙的LINE ID，我覺得是目標。","最後一個，因為現在有關於虛擬貨幣的詐騙行為非常多，但是在偵辦的過程當中，很多檢察官也好，很多檢察事務官、調查官也好，對於這種新興的詐騙，因為我們過去辦的都是傳統的案子，他們對於這種新興的可能不是那麼清楚，所以才造成之前有一個個案被移送了7次，這個犯罪人沒有被處分，我看到這個新聞我是非常訝異，所以我認為未來在辦案人員、調查人員裡面，應該要有更多人拿到一些證照來當主力來辦案，那這些有拿證照的，我覺得也應該給一些獎勵，譬如說分案的案子他可以少一點，鼓勵大家多去拿證照。對於這些新興金融犯罪，我們希望鼓勵他們多拿一些證照，同時要獎勵他們，我們可不可以給他們分案分少一點，或者員警要有一些績效跟獎勵？我覺得這樣才有機會在目前詐騙氾濫的狀況之下，員警接這些案子，他才有機會用力去查，否則現在全部都抓不到頭，抓到的都是下游的車手。","下游的車手就跟免洗筷一樣，對於犯罪首腦來講，對於那些集團來講是找到斷點，反正詐騙車手隨時可以找新的人來，但是詐騙集團永遠抓不到上層的首腦，這是現在詐騙犯罪最大的問題，你們同意我的說法嗎？所以無論是證照也好，證照鼓勵也好，在內部調查官、檢察官證照鼓勵也好，金管會可以給更多的授課，你們不要去講說以前都有授課，你們那些授課其實都是簽個到就走人了。"],["黃次長謀信：檢察官的部分，事實上，我們這個金融證照制度已經行之多年了，但是金融證照制度的課程內容當然會隨著委員報告的，就是……"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得要鼓勵多一點的人去拿這些金融證照，你的獎勵同時也要有。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：對，但是委員提到減免分案的部分……"],["主席：謝謝。"],["黃次長謀信：這涉及到每一個地檢署內部事務的分配問題，由地檢署的檢察長去決定他內部事務該減或不減，授權由地檢署檢察長因地制宜。"],["李委員彥秀：我最後一個要求，再30秒，對於犯罪上游這些人，如果抓到車手，有沒有可能比照毒品危害防制條例，如果他供出上游，在刑度上我們可能給一些寬鬆的刑度？這樣我們才有機會抓到上游的人，不然上游的人全部都抓不到，你抓一大堆下面的車手，他被當成免洗筷，有什麼用？"],["黃次長謀信：我們除了給球棒打擊之外，我們也給胡蘿蔔，事實上，這個概念我們有引進到打詐專法的修法裡面，在減輕其刑的部分，我們有類似的……"],["主席：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我希望打詐專法趕快出來，這個會期趕快出來，好不好？"],["黃次長謀信：謝謝委員"],["主席：接下來請謝衣鳯委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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的很急的也在在草擬這個草案這個打詐專法這個草案沒有日期沒有目標?我們一定我們在Cover說一定到4月份要提出來了4月份提出來那也不知道這個會計會不會通過好我要提那我要問一下Liant"},{"start":565.509,"end":571.721,"text":"我剛剛上網查了這些是詐騙帳號你們都有公佈上面才90個人看而已"},{"start":574.213,"end":597.952,"text":"現在透過詐騙就是投資啊或又透過LINE的上次我問過主委也知道透過Google或Meta我們現在都有實名制那臉書也有實名制現在LINE的部分怎麼處理第一個是我的問題第二這些詐騙的LINE的ID才90個人看欸"},{"start":599.853,"end":612.59,"text":"現在透過LINE的投資詐騙也很氾濫耶那你們公布這些帳號才90個人看後面有什麼具體的作為嗎?可能有什麼具體的作為嗎?"},{"start":616.249,"end":642.143,"text":"關於觀看人數過少的部分我們會再加強來做宣導然後另外如果查詢的部分我們在165的LINE的APP裡面可以公民眾來查詢這個是另外一個可以查詢的管道以上我覺得因為我們之前都有要求實名制包括Google包括臉書包括Meta我們都有慢慢要求實名制至於LINE的部分"},{"start":643.365,"end":671.061,"text":"怎麼去跟總公司溝通減少這些詐騙的LINE的ID我覺得是目標然後另外我最後一個因為現在我們有關於虛擬貨幣的詐騙行為非常多但是在偵辦的過程當中我們很多檢察官也好很多檢察事務官、調查官也好對於這種新興的詐騙因為我們過去辦的都是傳統的案子對於這種新興的可能"},{"start":672.022,"end":673.684,"text":"所以我鼓勵我認為未來我們的辦案人員、調查人員裡面應該要有更多的譬如說要有拿到一些證照來當主力來辦案"},{"start":693.283,"end":710.374,"text":"那這些有拿證照我覺得也應該給一些獎勵比如說分案的案子他可以少一點鼓勵大家多去拿這些證照對於這些金融犯罪新興金融犯罪我們希望鼓勵他們多拿一些證照那同時我們要獎勵他們是我們可不可以"},{"start":710.754,"end":710.894,"text":"主席﹗"},{"start":725.595,"end":746.502,"text":"否則我們現在全部都抓不到頭抓到的都是下游的車手下游的車手就跟免洗筷一樣對於犯罪首腦來講那些集團來講找到斷點反正詐騙車手隨時都還可以找新的人來但是詐騙集團這些首腦永遠抓不到上層這是現在詐騙犯罪最大的問題你們同意我的說法嗎"},{"start":748.007,"end":761.249,"text":"所以無論證照也好、證照鼓勵也好在內部調查官、檢察官證照鼓勵也好金管會可以給更多的授課你們不要去講說以前授課我們都有授課你們那些授課其實都是簽個到就走人的"},{"start":762.174,"end":788.91,"text":"根文報告檢察官的部分事實上我們這個金融證照制度已經行之多年了但進到制度的課程內容當然會隨著這個委員報告的就是我覺得要鼓勵多一點人對於金融證照去拿這些證照那你的獎勵同時也要有對那委員提到的減免這個分案的部分這涉及到每一個地檢署內部事務的分配問題由地檢署的檢察長去決定那內部事務該減或不減授權由地檢署檢察長因地制宜"},{"start":789.15,"end":810.393,"text":"然後對於犯罪我最後一個要求30秒對於犯罪上游這些人如果抓到車手我們有沒有可能比照這個毒品的危害防治條例如果他供出上游在刑度上我們可能給一些寬鬆的刑度那這樣我們才有機會抓到上游的人上游的人全部都抓不到你抓一到下面的車手他把他當免洗塊有什麼用"},{"start":811.454,"end":811.754,"text":"接下來請謝一鳳委員質詢"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}