{"error":false,"id":["150391"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150391,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150391","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-23-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[23],"委員會代碼:str":["交通委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T12:28:39+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T12:37:44+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bbdff8759f49ff491cabe2e38d5d7efe9f8ba9b0039caa7a697110b78856a118c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:28:39 - 12:37:44","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。【詢答及處理】【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":967,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時28分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["王部長國材：張委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你好。"],["王部長國材：你好。"],["張委員啓楷：現在物價隨時可能飆漲，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：現在每個人都在壓制物價，結果交通部現在變成漲價的火車頭嗎？你應該是踩煞車的人，怎麼變成火車頭？你現在臺鐵也要漲，高鐵也要漲，公路客運也要漲，你一漲不是整個物價就往上漲嗎？而且我發現一個問題非常嚴重，你不只漲，電價上漲幅度才11%，對不對？我看你的幅度都比人家高，高鐵可能要漲15%，公路客運中長程跟短程三排椅漲23%，時間不對，漲太多了吧？"],["王部長國材：我跟張委員報告，現在唯一我們覺得應該趕快處理的是國道客運的部分，因為它正面臨生存的問題，但是我們現在是說短程的部分就用TPASS來cover，差額就由我們來補貼。然後中途跟長途的部分我們現在有考慮用我們的補貼方案，部分補貼。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，很好，很好，你有想到。我是覺得，第一個，時間不對，幅度不要那麼大，你如果有更好的方案，你就讓政府現在補助，漲價先停下來，現在嚴重的是什麼？電價往上漲，對不對？如果臺鐵、高鐵、客運直接漲上去，等於火上加油嘛。所以第一個是時間點不對。我先強調，是時間點不對，我不是反對你漲價，該有的成本，尤其是臺鐵，我覺得臺鐵已經虧損那麼久了，28年沒調漲，我贊成要調，可是絕對不要在這個時候，好不好？第一個……"],["王部長國材：那個……"],["張委員啓楷：不，你先聽我說，第一個，時間要往後押，好不好？那你剛剛提到客運的部分，如果政府可以透過補助，先不要漲啊，好不好？我們先不要漲，臺鐵、高鐵跟客運短時間都不要漲，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：雙鐵的票價討論應該會在下半年，雙鐵都會在下半年。"],["張委員啓楷：高鐵？"],["王部長國材：高鐵和臺鐵都是下半年以後的事情了，我說討論會在下半年以後。"],["張委員啓楷：是，今天能不能非常明確地跟全國民眾保證，臺鐵在上半年絕對不會漲，高鐵在上半年也絕對不會漲？"],["王部長國材：都不會。是。"],["張委員啓楷：都不會？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：另外一個就是高鐵，這個幅度有點大，你可能要注意一下，你是最大的股東嘛，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：交通部的股份高達六成，我算了一下，現在從臺北坐到高雄的票價是1,490元，現在傳出要漲15%，1,490元差不多是我們一般民眾一天的薪水了，對不對？","他如果回家看爸爸媽媽，去看家人，來回就兩天的薪水。"],["王部長國材：基本費率調整，票價也不見得調整，過去也有基本費率有提升，我們不讓票價漲。這個問題我們會全盤來考量，相關討論都會在下半年才會開始討論。"],["張委員啓楷：所以部長，現在很明確地跟我們的民眾講，上半年臺鐵、高鐵是不會漲的。"],["王部長國材：下半年才會討論。"],["張委員啓楷：討論也是下半年，更進一步，幅度不要太大。第二個，如果是客運的話，能不能也不要漲？透過你的補助嘛。這段時間老實說你可以補助，叫他們慢點漲，可不可以？"],["王部長國材：公路客運就用這種方式，公路客運可以用剛剛說的短途用TPASS來cover，中長途部分補貼，大概這樣處理。"],["張委員啓楷：不是啦。中長程和短程那種有三排椅子的要漲23%，這個部分的漲價要停下來嗎？"],["王部長國材：我再說一次，短途就是用TPASS來cover，比如：基隆、桃園這部分，基本上我們都用TPASS來處理掉，所以民眾沒有感覺。中長途的部分，我們部分補貼，讓票價不要提太高，因為國道客運和公路客運確實是面臨到經營上的困境，所以我們用部分補貼的方式來處理，但民眾就是不會感覺……"],["張委員啓楷：我現在看了就是嚇一跳，本來是要調多少？現在公會給你的案子是要調23%嘛？你明確跟我們講，經過交通部補助以後，能夠降到多少？或者不要漲。"],["王部長國材：這個我們再討論，不要讓它漲那麼高是確定的。"],["張委員啓楷：10%以下？"],["王部長國材：這個應該是……"],["張委員啓楷：23%太高了，10%以下？"],["王部長國材：這個等公路局和費率委員會去討論。"],["張委員啓楷：沒有，沒有，你給我一個承諾，你不要漲太高。"],["王部長國材：就是民眾負擔不會漲很多。"],["張委員啓楷：好。","另外，我們來看一個案子，好不好？你現在變成情報頭子了，對不對？定位上有沒有錯誤？"],["王部長國材：我剛才已經說過了，不過這個標題實在太可怕了。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼會可怕？"],["王部長國材：我不是說國人別去香港……"],["張委員啓楷：你的專業是交通，大家認為你可能留下來繼續幫我們的交通盡心盡力，結果你現在說香港的基本法，你叫國人不要去香港，你是當情報頭子是不是？部長，還是你準備轉行去當國安局長嗎？"],["王部長國材：張委員，我再講一次，我當天是因為他們問我如果基本法第二十三條通過，我的態度如何我是說如果有可能違反基本法規定的行為，我是勸他們不要去。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你這樣講就是違心之論，你要保持初心，叫人家自己去判斷，這裡面最嚴重的問題什麼？是定位錯誤，交通部長是促進觀光的，你應該希望我們的人都出去觀光，人家都進來，對不對？結果不是，你現在說這句話的意思是香港不要去，你不覺得你的定位完全錯誤嗎？"],["王部長國材：我是說有可能觸法的不要去，我再說一遍。"],["張委員啓楷：普通人聽到你這樣說，心想：交通部長這麼專業還這麼說，大家會不會嚇到？"],["王部長國材：不是。我如果不跟他們說，他們去香港被人抓去關了，要怎麼辦？我一定要講。"],["張委員啓楷：你怎麼知道會被抓去關？這個是國安局的事啊。部長，這涉及你的定位，最重要的是，你是交通部部長，交通部部長要促進觀光嘛，對不對？"],["王部長國材：但是要在安全的狀況下促進觀光。"],["張委員啓楷：以你的定位，你現在變成去管國安的事情。"],["王部長國材：安全，要安全。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你說一下，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你今年的目標定的是1,200萬人，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["張委員啓楷：2023年港澳來臺的旅客是最大宗的，光是香港來臺灣的，在2023年就有110萬人次，你現在這麼說，香港人也說你們看不起我們香港，到時候香港人不來，110萬不就沒了？你原來定的1,200萬人這個目標不是就沒有了嗎？"],["王部長國材：好，我再講一次……"],["張委員啓楷：所以你變成情報頭子的思考，害得你身為交通部長招徠觀光客的目標達不到了，是不是這樣？"],["王部長國材：我身為觀光主管的部長，我必須說有風險的人不要去，再講一下，沒有風險的人歡迎去，這樣好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：你怎麼知道人家去那裡有什麼風險？"],["王部長國材：他自己判斷，比方他以前有沒有……"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有風險看兩個地方，第一個，香港到底有沒有風險，可能是國安局局長可以判斷，由交通部部長來判斷，不太合理。","第二個，人家自己心中有一把尺，你是交通的專業，不要去管政治的事情，好不好？不要意識形態，不要意識形態。"],["王部長國材：委員，我完全沒有這個意思，我是好意，那一天有記者在問，確實是有這樣的風險，比如，在境外講過什麼，也會有問題，所以我聽起來覺得如果真的有講過什麼，因為我們臺灣是很自由的國家，可能不小心講到他們的壞話，如果有這樣的行為，我勸他不要去。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你人緣很好，我知道，所以記者去問你，問題是，你現在定位你要想一想，你不是情報頭子，你是要促進觀光，你現在一講，到目前為止，觀光業就跳腳了，觀光業覺得自己很倒楣，之前要組團去大陸，你一句話，人家也不能去了，這是二度傷害，剝了兩層皮。","最後30秒了，你跟我們全國的民眾講一下，我們還是可以去香港，也歡迎香港的人來。"],["王部長國材：我再講一次，有沒有風險，大家自己判斷，因為我不知道你有沒有風險，如果沒有風險，我歡迎港澳跟臺灣自由往來，觀光交流。"],["張委員啓楷：有沒有風險，讓情報單位、讓國安局去判斷。"],["王部長國材：如果有風險，我是覺得真的要注意一下。"],["張委員啓楷：你是促進觀光旅遊的交通部長，拜託你，你不要幫人家定位。"],["王部長國材：我沒有那個意思啦。我再講一次，真的。"],["主席：俄羅斯也可以去啊。"],["張委員啓楷：俄羅斯也可以去，雖然在打仗，還是可以去。"],["王部長國材：我真的是善意的提醒，不是說那個……"],["張委員啓楷：主席提供一個非常好的建議，讓自己去判斷。","第二個是重點，你的定位是促進觀光，老實說，觀光業已經很倒楣了，組團的事情都還沒解決……"],["王部長國材：我要澄清……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在已經剝了第二層皮了，多幫幫我們觀光業的業者，讓民眾也可以寬心，快快樂樂地去香港。"],["王部長國材：是。謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好啦，部長，你跑一趟北京嘛。","超過十二點半了，快到一點了，後面的便當委員會開始發便當，官員、委員都發，好不好？因為我們中午不休息，為了讓大家下午的時間能夠充分利用。有沒有聽到？現在開始發便當，OK。好，也可以吃，沒關係，現在疫後沒有這個問題了。","下一位請林沛祥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":472,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-5","speakers":["陳雪生","傅崐萁","李昆澤","廖先翔","黃健豪","游顥","徐富癸","林國成","魯明哲","蔡其昌","陳素月","何欣純","林俊憲","邱若華","許智傑","鄭天財Sra 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人家心中有一把尺啊。 你是交通的專家不要去管政治的事情好不好。 不要意識形態。 不要意識形態"},{"start":441.909,"end":465.756,"text":" 那個我完全沒有這意思我是好意跟他因為如果因為那天自己有在問是有這樣的風險嘛比如說在境外講過他的什麼問題也會有什麼問題所以我聽起來欸如果你真的有因為我們台灣是很自由的國家你知道嗎可能你就沒天理的講到他那個什麼判決什麼如果有這樣的行為啦我是勸他不要去法定你人眼前好我知道阿所以記者去問你嘛"},{"start":466.656,"end":487.435,"text":"問題你現在定位你不是情報投擲啊你是促進觀光你現在講到目前為止對不對觀光業就跳腳了啊觀光業就衰進行那個要組團去大陸你一句話人家也不能去了這二度傷害勒撥了兩層皮勒沒有沒有現在來來來最後啦好不好最後30秒啦你跟我們全國的民眾講一下啦我們還是可以去香港啦"},{"start":488.215,"end":509.684,"text":"我再講一次沒有風險我現在當然自己判斷因為我不知道你有沒有風險沒有風險我歡迎港澳跟臺灣自由往來逛逛交流還是什麼有沒有風險讓情報單位讓國安局去判斷有風險真的我直接來主委一下交通部長拜託你不要幫人家定位我沒有那個意思我再講一次真的"},{"start":511.445,"end":527.775,"text":"二樓室也可以去雖然在打仗還是可以去我沒有講我真的是善意的提醒不是說那個主席主席提供的非常好讓自己去判斷阿第二個是重點你的定位是促進觀光因為觀光業都是有夠衰阿主席你現在已經撥了第二層皮了好不好多幫幫幫幫我們的觀光業的業者讓民眾也歡迎快快樂樂去香港玩好謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":540.185,"end":541.307,"text":"部長你跑一趟北京嘛"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}