{"error":false,"id":["150392"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150392,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150392","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T12:28:20+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T12:39:25+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:05","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005bbfacd9e6ec65c28e8506765f624e20d0f8ba9b0039caa7a67e16859af7a544885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:28:20 - 12:39:25","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、數位發展部就「新世代打擊詐欺策略行動綱領1.5版」預算執行情形及成效進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時28分）謝謝主席。有請金管會黃天牧主委以及法務部的黃謀信次長。"],["主席：請黃主委及黃次長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["黃次長謀信：委員。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。我想imB吸金詐騙的案子兩位應該都很熟悉，現在進行的階段是臺北市地方法院第一審，準備聽被害人的心聲，目前統計的人數不曉得要租哪裡的大禮堂才有辦法進行。這個案子的發生，我從還不在立法院就開始追蹤到現在，我一直在思考的是未來我們要怎麼做才能夠再預防，我今天主要的目的是先讓兩位知道，我不是在追究什麼責任，但每一步到底怎麼發生走到今天，我們如果沒有辦法誠實的面對，就不可能有智慧的去思考未來，我把我的基本立場先說明。","我要先請教主委，剛開始有一位臺大財經妹的被害人出來，有委員質詢你，你說有網友在質疑她是不是臺大財經系的，這樣不好吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我事後看了對話，我會改進，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：你會改進，那個臺大財經妹我接觸過好幾次，今天我給你公開的場合，她已經把畢業證書秀出來了，你要不要跟她致意一下？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我可以，如果有需要的話。"],["黃委員國昌：你現在公開跟她致意，她現在在看。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我是看PTT上面的話去做的回應，如果有不當的地方我跟她致歉，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好。2016年那時包括我和羅明才委員一起在財政委員會，我們一開始的時候一直在追，因為那時P2P的事情已經開始了，那個時候您是擔任副主委嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["黃委員國昌：我問了您，也問了詹庭禎局長，你們到底什麼時候規範要出來？那時候大家都在等，有說要立專法，也有說要修法的，那時的主委王儷玲說金管會的立場是開放，但必須要有專法來管。後來到了另一位主委丁克華時，他的看法也是一樣，甚至那時候林全在施政方針裡面也說必需要管理，到底在什麼時間點整個政策完全轉向？然後把P2P認為說這件事情不需要由金管會管理，把它看成一般民間私人的借貸就好。發生這件事情後，我一直回想整件事情，我回頭看，我記得我們那時財委會的討論是要推專法，要不然要修法，但到一個特定時間點的時候，政策突然轉向了，跟當初林全乃至於之前不管是您當副主委還是王儷玲當主委還是丁克華當主委，政策立場都不一樣了。到底是什麼時間點、基於什麼樣的因素認為P2P不需要透過金管會或者透過專法或者修法來管理？請教一下黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實在政黨輪替之前，銀行局的確有討論到專法，但在2016政黨輪替後，後來的主委也討論過幾個方案，後來決定沒有採專法的方式。"],["黃委員國昌：那很奇怪，如果是這樣的話，為什麼林全在他的施政方針報告中這樣寫呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：他沒有講，我不太瞭解，他沒有講要專法，那時候就是政黨輪替後的主委決定不要用專法的方式，我們會內有討論。"],["黃委員國昌：那時候您有參與討論嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我不記得了，應該是有，我不曉得在什麼場合有討論。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，在政策上我還是很誠懇的建議金管會對這件事情真的要好好的重新思考，我為什麼會這樣說呢？我進一步請主委看，這是我在追蹤整個imB案從2016年到2023年臺北地檢署起訴的整個大事紀，我們在2016年的時候，那個時候法務部調查局有立案，2017年金管會函覆法務部調查局桃園市調處，去年imB的案子起來以後，我知道金管會大概發了兩次到三次的澄清說：我們從來沒有說它沒有違反銀行法，我們說的是要檢調機關自己去認定。主委，我有沒有理解錯誤？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，其實您有垂詢過我們，因為它是刑事的認定，不是金管會能夠處理的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這就是我今天同時請兩位上來，我要跟你們深入探討的。當桃園市調處接到檢舉的時候，開始做筆錄的時候，那時不法吸金的金額是27億元，等到去年它整個沒有辦法支撐、崩盤的時候已經到90億元，我這段時間一直在思考的事情是我們在管制上如何提早發現、提早預防。從被害人的角度來講，我必須要說實在的，現在是哭訴無門，錢要拿回來的機率微乎其微，大概是拿一張債權憑證回家貼在牆壁上看著債權憑證流眼淚。第一個，如果今天金管會認為這個地方不要去管制，第二個，就銀行法有沒有不法吸金，永遠要到檢調後階段再來處理的話，等於未來這樣的風險會繼續存在，主委聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們中間有協助P2P業者，由聯徵成立第二個徵信中心，讓他們在過程中能夠得到徵信的資訊，我們有做這些事情。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我們繼續往下看。主委說你們從來沒有表示imB沒有違反銀行法，下一張請您仔細看，這是法務部調查局桃園市調處當初發給桃園地檢署的函，這個函是被害人給我的，被害人看了以後他們說什麼？法務部桃園市調處說的是經函詢金管會，認為沒有辦法認定違反銀行法第二十九條之一，也就是金管會有金管會的觀點，但我今天要跟主委報告的是，當初這個案子為什麼桃園市調處把腳步停下來？他們真的是看到金管會的函才停下來，我本來以為他們會不會是為了卸責在媒體上這樣放話，但當我看到桃園市調處給桃園地檢署檢察官這個函時，我開始相信，而且這是在案發以前，而不是等到2023年整個事情爆發以後大家開始推卸責任，這是在2022年時它函覆桃園地檢署檢察官就這樣講，他們真的是因為金管會做了這樣的回函，所以他們把整個偵辦的腳步停下來。我最後只講一件事，因為主席站起來了，未來類似這樣的事情，目前還有沒有檢察官派駐在金管會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：一直都有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：一直都有。"],["黃委員國昌：未來是不是金管會可以好好的討論一下，在處理類似案件時，主管機關要表達看法以前，是不是可以跟金管會裡駐會的檢察官共同研議怎麼樣的回函、怎麼樣的回復、怎麼樣的表達不會讓第一線的檢警產生這樣的誤會？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，通常要不要移送，我們會跟駐會檢討論，我可不可以講幾句話？"],["黃委員國昌：可以。"],["黃主任委員天牧：如果跟您講的不一致請您包涵。"],["黃委員國昌：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：您這邊引述四個字「尚難認定」，我自己好像也看過那個函，我想確定一下是不是我們的函就是這個字，還是他引述的時候的語氣跟我們發函的語氣是不一樣的，是不是可以跟您再確認一下？"],["黃委員國昌：我老實跟主委講，我今天在這裡質詢，我真的不是來算帳，也不是來跟您討論語氣的問題，您看我把大事紀列出來，我關心的只有一件事情，未來如果有類似的事情，做為掌握權力的人，不管是金管會或檢調，我們如何能做到比較早期的介入、比較早期的預防，不要讓被害人越來越多，這是我今天站在這裡質詢這個題目最主要的目的，所以我最後才提一個建議，未來金管會遇到類似的事情時，是不是可以跟派駐在金管會的檢察官先討論一下、瞭解一下到底是什麼狀況？而不是一個函回復之後，反而讓檢調整個偵辦的動作全部停下來。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員的關心我們可以在程序上斟酌看是不是加一個這個流程。"],["黃委員國昌：好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但不見得每件事情都一定要洽駐會檢，還是要看案情的輕重。"],["黃委員國昌：我老實講，今天如果不是出了這麼大的事情，我們真的沒有辦法冷靜的來看現在整個規範體系到底出了什麼狀況，因為我們都不希望相同的事情再發生。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，謝謝委員的關心，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位質詢請鍾佳濱委員。因為後面還有十幾位委員，請大家掌握時間，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":298,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","賴惠員","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","李坤城","王世堅","顏寬恒","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李彥秀","謝衣鳯","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","鄭天財Sra 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幾個方案後來決定沒有採專法的方式那很奇怪那如果是這樣子的話林全為什麼在他施政方針報告這樣寫呢他沒有講我不瞭解因為他沒有講要專法那個時候就是在"},{"start":256.109,"end":261.192,"text":"政黨輪替之後的主委他決定他不要用這案法的方式我們會內他們有討論對路事委員有參與討論嗎?"},{"start":266.28,"end":292.313,"text":"我不記得應該是有我不曉得在什麼場合有討論我這樣說好了就是說在政策上我還是很誠懇的建議金管會這件事情真的要好好的重新思考我為什麼會這樣子說呢我進一步帶主委看這個是我在追蹤整個IMB案從2016年我一路向到2023年臺北地檢署起訴的整個大事記"},{"start":294.278,"end":321.295,"text":"我們在2016年的時候那個時候法務部的調查局有立案2017年的時候金管會含附法務部調查局桃園市調處去年IMB的案子起來以後我知道金管會大概發了兩次到三次的澄清說我們從來沒有說他沒有違反銀行法我們說的是要檢調機關自己去認定主委我有沒有理解錯誤"},{"start":322.276,"end":350.083,"text":"沒有其實包括你有詢詢過我們因為他是形式的認定不是監管會能夠處理的這個就是我今天同時請兩位上來我要跟你們深入探討的因為當桃園市調處接到檢舉的時候開始做筆錄的時候請兩位看一下那個時候不法吸金的金額是257億喔等到去年他整個沒有辦法支撐崩盤的時候已經到90億喔"},{"start":351.721,"end":370.468,"text":"我這段時間一直在思考的事情是我們在管制上如何提早發現提早預防因為從被害人的角度上面來講我必須要說實在的現在是枯樹無門錢要拿回來的機率為乎其為大概拿一張債權憑證回家貼在牆壁上看著債權憑證流眼淚"},{"start":376.104,"end":397.683,"text":"那如果說我們今天第一個金管會認為這個地方不要去管制那第二個就銀行法有沒有不法吸金永遠要到減掉後階段再來處理的話那等於是什麼?等於是未來這樣子的風險會繼續存在喔主委您聽得懂我的意思嗎?"},{"start":399.64,"end":424.272,"text":"我們中間有協助P2P業者由廉珍成立第二個徵信中心要他在過程中能夠有得到徵信的資訊好,我們等一下繼續往下看齁除了你們說你們從來沒有表示R&B沒有違反銀行法嘛下一張請您仔細看這個是法務部調查局桃園市調處當初發給"},{"start":427.9,"end":451.875,"text":"臺灣地檢署的函這個函是被害人給我的被害人他們看了以後他們說什麼法務部、桃園市調處說的是金函詢金管會認為沒有辦法認定違反銀行法29條之一也就是"},{"start":453.376,"end":480.962,"text":"金管會有金管會的觀點但我今天要跟主委報告的是當初這個案子為什麼桃園市調處把腳步停下來他們真的是看到金管會的函他們真的是看到金管會的函才停下來我本來以為說他們會不會是為了卸責在媒體上面這樣放話但是當我看到桃園市調處給桃園地檢署的檢察官這個函的時候我開始相信了"},{"start":482.128,"end":508.842,"text":"而且這個是在案發以前喔這個不是等到2023年整個事情爆發了以後大家開始推卸責任這是在2022年的時候他含附桃園地檢署的檢察官就這樣講喔他們真的是因為金管會做了這樣子的回函所以怎麼樣所以他們把整個偵辦的角度給停下來了我現在齁最後只講一件事以後主席站起來了齁未來"},{"start":510.404,"end":514.936,"text":"類似這樣的事情目前還有沒有檢察官派駐在金管會?"},{"start":516.653,"end":540.96,"text":"一直都有有嘛一直都有那未來是不是金管會可以好好討論一下我們在處理類似的案件的時候主管機關要表達看法以前是不是可以跟金管會裡面駐會的檢察官共同來演繹怎麼樣的回函怎麼樣的回覆怎麼樣的表達不會讓第一線的檢警產生這樣的誤會"},{"start":544.881,"end":563.676,"text":"主席,我們通常是如果要移送不移送,我們會跟朱惠簡去討論。那我可不可以講幾句話?可以,可以。對您講的如果不一致,請您包涵。是。您這邊引述那四個字,少男認定。我自己好像也看過那個涵。我想確定一下是不是我們涵就是這個字,還是他引述的時候。不是。"},{"start":564.517,"end":589.39,"text":"他好像引述的時候的語氣上跟我們發函的語氣是不一樣的我可不可以跟您再確認一下我老實跟主委講今天我在這邊質詢我真的不是來算帳我也不是來跟你討論語氣的問題你看我把那個大事記列出來我關心的只有一件事情未來如果有類似的事情我們作為掌握權力的人不管是金管會"},{"start":590.47,"end":607.802,"text":"還是檢調我們如何能做到比較早期的介入比較早期的預防讓被害人越來越多這個是我今天站在這邊質詢這個題目最主要的目的所以我最後才提一個建議是說未來金管會"},{"start":609.318,"end":624.233,"text":"遇到類似的事情的時候是不是可以跟派駐在金管會的檢察官先討論一下瞭解一下到底是什麼狀況而不是一個喊回去了以後反而讓檢調整個偵辦的動作全部都停下來"},{"start":625.424,"end":651.315,"text":"委員您的關心我們可以在程序上在斟酌看是不是加一個這個流程但是不見得每件事情都一定要洽駐會檢因為還是有看他的案情的輕重了我老實講啦今天如果不是出了這麼大的事情我們真的沒有辦法冷靜的來看我們現在整個規範體系到底出了什麼狀況因為我們都不希望相同的事情再發生嘛我謝謝委員的關心"},{"start":659.741,"end":664.738,"text":"下一位質詢請鍾嘉斌委員因為後面還有十幾個委員請大家掌握時間"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}