{"error":false,"id":["150403"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150403,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150403","日期":"2024-03-25","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-8","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":8,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-25T13:01:46+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-25T13:13:39+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:53","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/3b2b855ee35a005b1dc0de7b5929e804e5559e54a1be29d3f8ba9b0039caa7a6a08c380e87b7bb0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"13:01:46 - 13:13:39","會議時間":"2024-03-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動部主管預算凍結案21案(含報告事項20案及討論事項1案)。\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】）","gazette":{"lineno":1282,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時1分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["許部長銘春：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長，辛苦了！部長有掌握到20日高雄仁武遊覽車事件的狀況嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["劉委員建國：有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["劉委員建國：它到底是什麼狀況？給你30秒大致說明一下，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：據報載說好像有超時工作的問題。"],["劉委員建國：據報載說？"],["許部長銘春：對，現在……"],["劉委員建國：署長呢？還沒有去調查？"],["許部長銘春：原本高雄市政府有兩次要去勞檢，因為那時候負責人正在配合檢警的偵辦中，所以還未釐清實際狀況。不過我們也調閱了交通部公路局的GPS，當日真正的行車時間並沒有超過10小時，但是具體工作時間不是看行車紀錄器，有時候待命時間也算是工作時間，包括準備及事後加油等等的都要算，所以這個部分還需要進一步釐清。"],["劉委員建國：你掌握到報載以及署裡調閱的行車紀錄器，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊的訊息，你也掌握一下，好不好？根據我所得知的訊息，遊覽車是3月20日早上5點出發，事故發生在3月20日晚上8點，阿里山一日遊嘛！這樣就有幾個鐘頭了？當然，誠如你所言，到底具體實際開車的時間是多久，你們還需要double check，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是，依照這樣的算法，值勤時間其實已經達到了15個小時，對不對？根據勞基法第三十九條的規定，整天的工時是8小時，加班不得超過4小時，等同整天的工時不得超過12小時。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：交通部在2020年、2022年也修正了汽車運輸業管理規則部分條文，明定遊覽車駕駛從報到地點到行程結束的工時不能逾11小時，違規最高就是罰9萬，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：這名司機從出車到出事已經15個小時。我們再來算他到底是什麼時候到班，如果他是5點要到班，對不起，應該是說他5點要出發，這樣他是不是要提早半個鐘頭或一個鐘頭到班，對不對？這是簡單算嘛！對不對？從他家要到到班的時間要不要半個鐘頭至一個鐘頭的梳洗或吃早餐，所以可能又要再多半個鐘頭到一個鐘頭，簡單講，最少在5點到班前還要多一個到一個半鐘頭，這樣才算是合理嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：我們再假設另外一個情境，如果20日當天遊覽車可以平安到家，當時8點確實還在路上，我覺得就進度來看，把客人整個全部都送完，也應該要到9點了，應該是這樣嘛！最理想是9點半回到他到班的公司，並於10點前離開，11點可能回到家裡洗澡、上床睡覺。署這邊有沒有調查他隔天預訂的班別是幾點要開始執勤？有調查嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個部分的權限在高雄市勞檢處，目前他們正在調查、釐清，不過，剛剛……"],["劉委員建國：發生這麼大的事情，這個當然要釐清，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：但是調查他隔天的班表應該不是很困難的事情。"],["許部長銘春：都要、都要。主要是由高雄市勞檢處負責調查，我們的南區職安中心也有給予協助，所以我們會將整件事情做個釐清。針對委員剛剛的說明，這個一定是超時，不過我們還是必須了解中間……"],["劉委員建國：高雄市長就覺得這個駕駛應該對路況很熟悉啊！不應該犯下這樣的錯誤啊！對不對？這是地方政府首長講的話，我們也沒有什麼意見，但是署這邊應該要快速掌握是什麼情況。"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["劉委員建國：這名司機在過去6年來有3次違規事件，分別是倒車未注意人車、未依交通標誌指示行駛、違規臨時停車，這3件違規中沒有1件發現他超時工作的狀況，這樣就很奇怪了！再來，我就覺得為什麼會這麼巧，一觸犯就出事，疲勞的累積一定會讓事故發生的機率大大提高嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：部長，你看這個路，你知道那個司機是開慢車道或快車道？"],["許部長銘春：你是說那天嗎？"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["許部長銘春：應該是慢車道。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！他開慢車道，是不是？這條叫做水管路嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：遊覽車怎麼會開慢車道，況且慢車道還有機車，所以精神是不是出問題了？不然原本應該開快車道，怎麼會開慢車道與機車擠在一起，這樣就有問題嘛！你知道嗎？家屬也表示罹難者在生前還打電話向家屬抱怨司機亂繞路，所以我真的覺得這個司機當時的精神狀況應該是非常不佳啦！是不是太累了，還是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：可能是太累了。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊也調出了一份資料，勞動部在110年到112年針對全國遊覽車業實施勞動條件檢查總計1,626家次，違反的有190件次，累計罰款將近一千出萬，這次出事的旅行社，據了解只有110年檢查2次、罰款2萬，這個應該沒有錯誤吧！在去年3月3日你們的新聞稿有特別提到，交通運輸業違反勞基法比例偏高，勞動部將聯合交通部加強督導業者改善，1年後怎麼還會發生這樣的狀況？既然勞動部已經聯合交通部加強監督的作為，為什麼這家只有在110年檢查2次而已？難道部長要告訴全國，20日發生的這件事是個案？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，專案勞檢的名單是由交通部整個評估之後再交給我們……"],["劉委員建國：是啊！我知道啊！"],["許部長銘春：為什麼沒有列這一家，我們會再去了解，不過，未來針對這些有違規狀況的，我們自己的名單也撈一下，不是只看交通部給的名單。"],["劉委員建國：事故發生到現在已經是第5天了，對不對？我認為部或署還是要去掌握這個情況吧！"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：如果交通部那邊有問題，我們拜託召委再排一個專案嘛！究竟是交通部出問題或是你們勞動部出問題，對於你們在報告中寫的這句話，我是真的很難認可，「為持續減少職業災害發生，保障作業者之安全與健康，本部將持續運用有限人力」，底下我就不再贅述了，好不好？什麼叫有限人力？「以風險分級方式鎖定目標實施勤查嚴罰，俾有效督促事業單位落實職場防災管理」，因為你們沒辦法掌握，到現在沒辦法掌握，對委員會、對我做一個陳述，到底這個司機是不是已經過勞了、是不是已經超時到非常離譜了，因為你們沒辦法掌握，所以我也沒辦法用這個角度去問你，但是這個報告是你們寫的，什麼叫做「運用有限人力」？你講這樣，衛環委員會的委員都失職了！我在司法及法制委員會的時候，檢察官哀號人力不足，打詐這麼龐大的業務量，真的是不堪負荷，我們也三番兩次督促當時的蔡部長，最後也一直要求，你知道現在已經增加了檢察官助理100名，明年要再報到150名，還有其他補充人力將近五百多名。你們到底是怎樣的有限人力，你也說給我們聽聽看，衛環委員會來支持啊！究竟是我們失職或是沒有給你們支持，不然你們到現在還說「有限人力」是什麼意思？我聽不懂啊！"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，我想這個用語真的不是很恰當。"],["劉委員建國：如果真的是有限人力、人力不足，你就盤點出來，讓我們知道，我們來支持，對不對？不要像這件事情已經發生5天了，還沒有掌握狀況，雖然是地方第一線該先去了解清楚，但我覺得應該掌握到底有沒有超時、到底這家遊覽車公司是不是經常有這種狀況發生。依照目前這種狀況來講，只有110年檢查了2次、罰了2萬元，所以是交通部的問題，不是你們的問題，這樣也很奇怪啊！","部長，也不只是遊覽車這件事情，剛剛很多委員都向你垂詢過，市區公車也是一樣的狀況。2022年北市公車司機休息不夠，7個月前罰了372萬；2023年的新聞，中市的公車遭裁罰，有八成工時過長，臺北與臺中的比較辛苦！簡單講，市區公車遊覽車司機過勞好像已經不是什麼新聞，也不是什麼新聞，所以各縣市都在鬧司機荒，才會有桃園市長說要開放外籍司機的說法，我對這種想法是尊重啦！不過，如果像這樣經常工時過長、休息不夠，加上缺人，導致司機過勞，也因為缺人而導致更缺人，導致司機更過勞，這種惡性循環一直不斷，即使開放了外籍司機，也是讓外籍司機進來一樣過勞、一樣的惡性循環，在疲勞的駕駛中提高他的危險機率，最後鬧成國際笑話，讓國際知道我們的司機就是這樣的過勞、這樣的超時，甚至一直無法改善這樣的環境。我是拿這兩個數據給部長參考，無論是遊覽車司機或市區公車的司機，針對他們的超時或缺人狀況，到底要如何改善，以及剛剛我講的遊覽車事件，是不是可以儘快盤點出來？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：在你們盤點出來之後，給委員會一份報告，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。","接下來請何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-8","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","蘇清泉","王育敏","盧縣一","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","黃國昌","賴士葆","陳培瑜","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","洪孟楷","牛煦庭","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","徐巧芯","葉元之"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-25"],"gazette_id":"1131901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請勞動部部長就「事業單位應加強安全衛生管理制度、作業流程及必要教育訓練，並落實\n職場防災管理」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關勞動\n部主管預算凍結案21案（含報告事項20案及討論事項1案）","agenda_id":"1131901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.945343750000001,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.10034375,"end":15.724718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.724718750000001,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.775343750000001,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.00284375,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.61846875,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.63909375,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.48284375,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.83721875,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.035343750000003,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.22909375,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.254093750000003,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.13159375,"end":31.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.46471875,"end":36.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.10971875,"end":36.987218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.987218750000004,"end":38.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.16846875,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.24846875,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_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部長辛苦了部長有掌握到20日高雄仁魯遊覽車事件的這個狀況嗎有有嗎有他到底是什麼狀況可不可以大致上30秒跟你說好不好現在就是說當然"},{"start":33.825,"end":47.646,"text":"據報載說好像有超時工作的問題據報載說?對那所長還沒有去到達?我們現在因為吼因為那個高雄市政府有兩次要去勞檢可是因為那時候負責人吼因為在"},{"start":48.507,"end":64.764,"text":"配合檢查檢警的正辦中所以沒有沒有還沒有理清楚但是我們也調那個GPS那個根據他交通部公務局的GPS他那天當日的行車時間真正的行車時間是沒有超過10小時"},{"start":65.825,"end":80.715,"text":"但是因為具體的工作不是看那個行車紀錄器還要看看他這個有時候他待命時間也算工作時間準備啦事後加油這些都要算所以我們這個部分還要需要進一步釐清"},{"start":82.236,"end":96.634,"text":"好那你掌握到這個報宅嘛還有署這邊去調那個行車紀錄器嘛對不對那我這邊你也掌握一下好不好我這邊的訊息是這樣一輛車是3月22日早上5點出啊然後"},{"start":98.081,"end":115.386,"text":"事故發生在3月20號的晚上8點阿里山一日遊所以這樣就幾個鐘頭了那當然陳努力所講的嘛到底他具體的實際開車時間多久這你再double check啦好不好但是你看喔如果依照這樣的算法已經已經執勤的時間達15個小時了嘛對不對好"},{"start":118.507,"end":130.477,"text":"我們勞進法30條規定這整天工時8小時加班不得超過4小時等同這整天的工作工時不能超過12小時交通部在2022年也修正《汽車運輸業管理規則》不用的條文明定遊覽車駕駛從報到遞員到行程結束工時不能逾11小時那違規就是最高罰9萬對不對"},{"start":145.211,"end":153.587,"text":"這名司機出車到出事了到出事就是已經15個小時了那我們再來算嘛他到底是什麼時候到班"},{"start":155.257,"end":174.612,"text":"他如果是五點要出發他是不是要提早半個鐘頭或一個鐘頭要到班?對不對?是簡單算嘛對不對?他從他家要到到班時間要不要半個鐘頭至一個鐘頭的梳洗嗎?我不曉得吶含要不要吃早餐"},{"start":175.553,"end":200.983,"text":"所以他可能又要再多一個半個鐘頭到一個鐘頭簡單講最少5點要到班前還要多一個鐘到一個半鐘頭這才屬於合理嘛那我們再假設另外一個情境嘛20日當天遊覽車如果可以平安到家但是他確實8點還在路上我看進度要把客人整個全部都送完也應該要到9點了啦應該是這樣嘛然後"},{"start":203.618,"end":221.766,"text":"最理想就是要9點半回到他到班的公司那10點前離開嘛11點可能回到家裡嘛洗澡上枕睡覺嘛署這邊有沒有去調查他隔天的預定他的班別是幾點要再開始執勤有去調查嗎"},{"start":222.711,"end":251.892,"text":"報告委員因為這部分的全縣在高雄市勞檢處他們現在現在就是在做一些調查、釐清啦我知道發生這麼大的事情這個當然要釐清嘛對不對但是調查隔天的班表應該也不是什麼困難的事情嘛高雄市勞檢處主要是他們調查那我們南區職安中心也有在協助所以我們把這個事情做一個整個釐清啦當然剛剛就委員這樣的說明這是很有可能就是"},{"start":252.572,"end":275.573,"text":"一定是超時不過這中間就是我們還是必須了解不是不是我想你看這個市長剛才市長就覺得說這個價值應該對陸管很熟悉啊不應該換價值錯誤啊對不對好這地方政府的首長講這些話嘛對不對我們也沒有什麼意見但是屬這邊應該要很快速去掌握到底什麼情況那你再看啦"},{"start":276.293,"end":298.665,"text":"這名司機在過去6年來有三次違規事件其中分別是倒車、未注意人車、未依交通標誌、指示行駛、違規臨時停車這三件違規裡面沒有半件發現他超時工作的狀況就很奇怪了再來我就覺得怎麼會這麼巧這樣一出犯就出事"},{"start":299.745,"end":322.342,"text":"我想這個疲勞的累積一定會讓事故發生的機率大大提高部長你看這個路你說那個司機是開快車道還是開慢車道嗎?慢車道你說那一天嗎?對啊他應該是慢車道啊對啊他開慢車道嘛是不是就有叫水管路嘛對遊覽車怎麼會開慢車道慢車道還有汽車"},{"start":325.765,"end":341.155,"text":"所以那個人是不是出問題了嗎?不然他要去快車道,他怎麼會找到慢車道慢車道他還要跟機車在那裡站這就有問題嘛所以你知道嗎?這根據家屬表示嘛就連罹患者的時候在生前都要打電話"},{"start":342.176,"end":349.899,"text":"跟他們的家屬抱怨司機亂繞路所以我真的是覺得這個司機當時應該精神狀況是非常的不佳啦是不是太累了或是安坐我們這邊我這邊也幫你調出一個資料就是勞動部在110年到112年對全國有一輛車業總計實施勞動條件檢查"},{"start":370.788,"end":375.573,"text":"1626家次威環190件次累計罰款將近1000出萬這次出事的旅行社據瞭解只有110年檢查兩次罰款2萬這應該沒有錯誤"},{"start":388.706,"end":401.216,"text":"那你看在去年3月3日的時候我們的新聞稿有特別提到說加東運輸業違反勞基華比例偏高勞動部將聯合加東部去加強督導業者改善一年以後怎麼還會發生這樣的狀況因為勞動部已經聯合加東部來做加強監督的作為了但是這一家為什麼只有在110年檢查兩次而已"},{"start":418.673,"end":435.162,"text":"難道部長要跟全國講說就20日發生這個事情叫做個案因為吼報告委我們那個要專案勞檢的名單吼就是由那個交通部吼他去整個"},{"start":436.246,"end":460.902,"text":"平估以後交給我們所以為什麼沒有列這一家我們會再做了解不過我想未來一定會針對這些有違規狀況的我們一定自己因為我們的自己的名單也撈一下不是只看交通部交的名單因為事化到現在已經第五天了嘛對不對我想部還是署還是要去掌握這個情況交通部那邊如果有問題我們拜託召委"},{"start":464.424,"end":466.625,"text":"以分嫌分級方式鎖定目標實施檢查研研法"},{"start":491.454,"end":518.128,"text":"必有效度出事業單位落實職場防災管理因為你們沒辦法掌握到現在沒辦法掌握委員會對我來做一個陳述到底這一個司機是不是已經過勞了是不是已經超時到非常離譜了你們沒辦法掌握嘛所以我也沒辦法用這個角度去問你但是這個報告是你們寫的嘛什麼叫做運用有限的人力你講這樣吼為何委員會的委員都失責啊"},{"start":519.369,"end":547.68,"text":"我在市委委員會的時候檢察官在挨人力不足要打造這麼大的業務量真的是不堪負荷我們也三番兩次的督促當時的蔡部長最後一直要求人家現在也增加了檢察官助理100名明年要再報到150名還有其他的補充能力快到500多名我們到底是怎樣的有限能力你也跟我們拚一下不然我會來支持啊"},{"start":549.167,"end":573.746,"text":"不然我們是失職還是還是沒有跟你們支持?不然你們到現在還有有限的人力是什麼意思?我聽不懂啊!你如果真的是有限人力人力不足你就盤點出來嘛!那我們知道嘛!我們來支持嘛!對不對?不要現在發生這個事情五天了還沒有掌握雖然是地方該去第一線該先去了解清楚但是我覺得掌握到底有沒有超時"},{"start":574.927,"end":585.002,"text":"到底這家遊行公司是不是經常有這種狀況發生但是如果從目前來講110年就是炒了兩次反而滿口所以是交通部的問題不是你們的問題這有點奇怪啊"},{"start":591.662,"end":608.915,"text":"我想部長也不只遊覽車這個事情你看剛剛很多委員都有跟你垂詢市區公車也是一樣狀況這個是2022年北市公車司機休息不夠7個夜學滑了372萬2023年新聞中市的公車遭柴滑8層公死過場這台北跟台中的比較吃爛"},{"start":616.525,"end":630.081,"text":"所以要簡單講說市區公車、遊覽車這個過勞好像已經也不是什麼新聞嘛也不是什麼新聞所以各縣市都在鬧這個司機方所以才有這個台灣市長說要對方開放外籍司機的說法"},{"start":632.343,"end":644.208,"text":"我感覺這尊重啦這種想法尊重啦不過如果像這樣經常工時過長然後休息不夠缺人導致失蹊過勞導致更缺人導致失蹊更過勞的惡種惡性循環一直不斷"},{"start":650.45,"end":667.921,"text":"你現在開放外企的司機是叫外企的司機進來一樣跟你一樣就是要過勞然後要這樣的惡性循環然後讓外企司機也負擔起這樣的一個在整個駕駛過程裡面提高他的這個危險的機率"},{"start":670.406,"end":674.308,"text":"這要鬧成國際笑話還是讓國際專注說我們的時機就是這麼樣的過勞然後這麼樣的超時這麼樣的一直沒辦法去改善這樣的一個環境"},{"start":686.674,"end":710.287,"text":"我是拿這兩個數據來給部長做參考啦所以我覺得說不管是遊覽車司機還是市區公車的司機啦不然他超時跟缺人狀況到底要去如何做改善還有幫我剛才講那個遊覽車那個事件是不是可以盡快的盤整出來啦啊你們真的缺人率也盤整出來給委會一個報告啦好不好好謝謝好謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}