{"error":false,"id":["150409"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150409,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150409","日期":"2024-03-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-26T09:02:54+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-26T09:18:17+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:23","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eec1652f4418da2b2e8ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6f2bb30dce88cf1a75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:02:54 - 09:18:17","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（9時3分）麻煩院長及法務部部長上臺。"],["主席：麻煩陳院長、法務部部長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：吳委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：院長、部長早安。"],["陳院長建仁：早。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，那我現在要跟兩位就教的就是有關維護校園安全以及校園一些狀況的部分，我們來討論一下，我們第一個看到111年每10萬名12歲到24歲青少年犯罪人口的比率，跟107年比起來其實增加了22.7%，也就是說，很明顯青少年的這個問題一直在上升。院長，像您的社會流行病學也有提到社會致病因子，其實問題並不是單一一個，而是家庭、社會、教育等等非常多東西的累積，不是單就一個問題或是完全怪罪於少年。所以我今天要質詢的問題是，法務部現在是身為最高的司法行政機關，就這個部分你們有全國最好的偵查資源，貴部的檢察官也是偵查的主體，就源頭的打擊，就是有關我們要怎麼樣不讓黑幫進入校園，以及就末端的補救，也就是矯正的教育，對這個部分我想請您簡單的說一下有沒有什麼想法？"],["陳院長建仁：我想在少年犯罪的這個部分，近年來確實像委員所講的是有增加的情況，那這裡面有一個蠻大的部分也是跟最近詐騙比較興盛有關，有蠻多的青少年都是當車手等等這樣的角色，當然遏止黑幫吸收少年進入幫派是相當重要，法務部在這方面是有一套很完整的作法，我是不是請部長簡單的說明一下？"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明一下，對於少年入黑幫的這個事情，我們在法制上，組織犯罪防制條例確實有一個明文規定，就是招募青少年進入幫派的話，我們現在有一個特別的處罰規定。至於少年如果犯了罪以後，是要先由少年法庭他們來做先議，先議完了以後認為有必要再做刑事的訴追，才會送到我們檢察官來偵查。至於如果判了要入監的時候，我們的矯正學校也有一個通盤、完整的矯正教育，讓他們在回歸社會的時候，是要繼續就學還是就業，都有一個完善的配套。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我跟您說一下，為什麼上一次割喉案之後，社會上又開始在吵死刑的議題？事實上，你說民眾會不會想要剝奪一個人的生命？我想大家都不會想，但是很多時候大家在吵這個死刑議題，為什麼有超過八成的民眾希望死刑的執行？就是因為其實很多時候是對於這個社會安全網已經破洞了，大家為了掩蓋心中的恐懼，當然他也有可能是為死者感到捨不得，因為這樣，所以大家才會回過頭來一直去爭執死刑存廢的問題。","因為我看到從1月9日到現在，部長那邊一直發的新聞稿就是這個執行死刑規則不是部長你改的對不對？你是依照以前的那個什麼辦法還是管理要點去……"],["蔡部長清祥：審查死刑的要點。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，並不是說你增加了什麼，但是我想要講的就是，像我們剛剛講的源頭打擊，或者是對於矯正機關，像少觀所、矯正學校，他們出來之後到底有沒有辦法融入這個社會、回去這個社會？能不能夠回到學校，不再惹事生非？我覺得這個是法務部的責任，也不能推給其他人，我想這個部長應該沒有意見吧！"],["蔡部長清祥：該我們要負責的，我們一定完全的負責，該我們要修的法規，我們也一定會修法規，但是死刑的問題，我想這個現在憲法法庭已經在審理當中了，我們就靜待他的最後決定。","吳委員宗憲；這個我知道。我是希望部裡面，因為從去年底到今年，其實部裡面一直有在談反滲透法還有認知作戰，我的意思是這樣，當然那些東西不是不能做，而是當我們把非常多的力氣讓部長、總長都一直出來講這個反滲透法，然後要檢察官一定要辦，結果呢？傳了這麼多人，我們花了那麼多力氣，到底價值在哪裡？將來我一定會盯這個點，就是當年傳喚的人數跟最後判決確定的人數的那個比例，我會把這個呈現出來給全國的國人，我覺得與其花力氣在這些東西上面，不如我們回過頭去想怎麼樣讓人民安居樂業，到底我們怎麼樣讓家長能夠安心的送小孩子到學校？","還有，我們也要去思考小朋友到這些矯正學校會不會越關越大尾，所以說為什麼青少年那個旋轉門效應很嚴重，就是進去、出來、進去、出來，一直很嚴重，這個我們都要去思考，到底有什麼問題。尤其是之前那個割喉案之後，我們從這個個案發現，從矯正機關出來是不是無法回歸社會？這一塊也麻煩部長你這邊能夠用心，然後我們去弄清楚我們的矯正系統到底出了什麼狀況。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明一下，原來是少年輔育院，我們現在是改為矯正學校，用學校化的方式來教育這些青少年。"],["吳委員宗憲：再來，我要提醒一下，因為現在短影音變成是黑幫的推手，以前要去什麼撞球場、去電動玩具店找、吸收小朋友，現在不用，現在都是用影音，所以可能要麻煩院長，您也要看跨部會之間要怎麼樣合作，因為他們吸收新的未成年人的方式已經變了，那我們也要去改變，要因應這個改變的部分，不要讓學校變成是幫派人力的人力銀行，這一塊再麻煩……"],["陳院長建仁：這個部分我們有請教育部、內政部跟法務部一起來努力。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，我們就是就事論事，我們就事論事。再來，我們來談剛剛部長所說的死刑的部分，死刑到底要不要執行？我想請教部長，當外界都一直在說你那個執行死刑規則第二條，但是部長、法務部也多次一直對外說跟以前相比並沒有增加死刑不執行的空間，我想請問你，這個規則是你任內訂的，這個規則跟以前有沒有增加了死刑不執行的空間？"],["蔡部長清祥：沒有，跟以前完全一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，我不要說重話啦！部長，這部分你可能誤解，我不要說你騙人，但你可能誤解了。","我們看一下審核死刑案件執行實施要點第二點以及執行死刑規則的第二條，來，你看一下，94年的實施要點有一個但書，就是說如果無理由或者是不受理而被駁回，用同一原因再度聲請者，不在此限。也就是說，如果他今天是用這些理由而被駁回的聲請釋憲，這個不在此限，也就是要執行。好，那我們再回過頭來看您的執行死刑規則第二條卻漏掉了這個但書，我們都知道立法者針對新法、舊法，如果舊法很多東西沒有過渡到新法，也就是說，它有意為之的讓這個部分就不需要再去審酌了，我想這樣非常的清楚，這個會導致什麼？我們都知道，舊法的時代如果聲請釋憲，可是被大法官用無理由或不受理駁回，你再聲請的話，依照以前的實施要點是不會甩你，我們就是執行！但是到現在的這個做法就不對了，現在這個做法只要他聲請的話，這個時候就不能夠處理，依照你的執行規則就不能夠處理啦！這個範圍變成不執行的空間放寬非常的大，並不像部長說的沒有增加空間。"],["蔡部長清祥：跟委員說明，這個實施要點跟規則同時是並行，都是存在的，所以即使執行死刑規則沒有規定，但是實施要點仍然在，仍然要遵守。"],["吳委員宗憲：這樣子不是疊床架屋嗎？同一個行為、同一件事情兩個東西在規範。如果照部長您這樣講的是對的話，我們幹嘛要從實施要點進到規則？這樣很奇怪啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：因為要讓它一致，所以……"],["吳委員宗憲：那是不是說規則有訂了、要點已經有，如果照你這樣講，還有規則存在，那你要點就不用訂啊！不就是我剛才講的疊床架屋嗎？還是部長你願不願意承諾，就執行死刑規則第二條的這個部分，請你把當初實施要點的但書加回去？因為這個部分是法務部就可以做了！"],["蔡部長清祥：我們非常願意，而且這個我們也同時在進行當中了，因為它是不是同一個原因，在我們送給釋憲大法官的時候，我們都已經有看過，所以目前的都不是相同的理由提出的，這是我第一個說明。第二個說明就是即使是同一個理由，憲法法院也可以駁回，駁回的話，這個釋憲的案子就結束了，我們就可以執行了。"],["吳委員宗憲：聲請到駁回還有一個時間，你也沒有規範他不可以重複聲請，聲請到駁回這個時間，他就一直跟你玩這個，所以我建議你還是要回去趕快把這個規則稍微改一下，好不好？這個部裡面就可以做這個決定了，不需要再經過立法院三讀。","再來我想提一個東西，如果實質廢死之下法務部都沒有什麼處理的話，我還是建議是不是我們要增列無期徒刑不得假釋的這個東西出來？讓將來法官在無期徒刑得假釋跟不得假釋有一個選擇的空間，這是實體法的部分，部裡面是不是可以考量這個地方？"],["蔡部長清祥：是，我們都會考量，不管死刑的規定將來如何的釋憲結果，我們都有充分的準備。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，這個不能跟我說用研議喔，因為部長說過很多次研議，而研議這個東西，對以前我在帶法制局的同仁來說，研議的話就是同仁已經積極在處理了，所以這塊要麻煩部長趕快，不管廢不廢死，至少找一個能夠替代的東西出來，將來萬一有一天真的廢死的話，我們才來得及去因應。","最後，割喉案死者的父母──楊爸爸、楊媽媽有來找過那，我也滿感動的。部長，你愛家人在檢察界非常有名氣了，愛家人、愛小孩，我們都很知道，所以一定也能夠體會家族失去愛子的那種痛苦，我在這邊把死者的父親──楊爸爸、楊媽媽給我的一個聲明唸出來，「難道死者因為不能為自己說話就該白白冤死嗎？我們孩子的生命正要展開最美的人生時，卻無辜被折翼，難道凶手就可以再被所謂的人權保障？如此，請人權團體也還給我孩子的生命權，那我就不用再糾結了。凶手在逞凶時，凶殘至極，也沒有留給我兒子一點生的機會。法律本該捍衛生命安全，而非問我們要不要有死刑。難道法律要自白律法已死，人命不值錢嗎？請不要為了少數人的人權而損害大眾的生命安全。」部長，這個是家屬──楊爸爸、楊媽媽寫給我的，我看了也很難過。部長是我們中華民國死刑執行命令的簽署權人，你要有那個guts、擔當去做，這才是一個很盡責的部長。我三十三歲的時候就曾具體求處過死刑，那時候我也想過，具體求處死刑會不會讓我背這個業障？但是我那時候有一個想法，我是為全民的安全，為社會治安，所以我不應該思考這麼多，我要有那個肩膀、guts去扛這個，即便有業障，也麻煩部長能夠這樣想。"],["蔡部長清祥：我個人執行過兩件死刑。"],["吳委員宗憲：我知道。"],["蔡部長清祥：所以我並不會因為我個人的因素，我完全是依照法律的規定執行，如果所有的救濟程序都已經完畢，我們該執行就執行。對於被害人的家屬我們感同身受，所以一直非常強調犯罪被害保護的工作，我們都是一路相伴，也已經派人關心家屬，幫忙他，做任何的保護措施。"],["吳委員宗憲：人權保障，加害人跟被害人在天秤上是要平衡的，如果嚴重向加害人傾斜，你、我、我們都不應該向這樣的環境、這樣的人權團體、錯誤的人權團體低頭，我們絕對不能低頭。部長，你跟我都是檢察官出身，對於維護社會治安還有人民安居樂業，我們當年都有那種無可救藥的熱情，我想部長一定也是這樣。只有檢察官能夠為被害人申冤，也只有檢察官總是站在被害人那一邊，不是站在加害人那一側，所以檢察官要為公平正義奮鬥，絕對不能為政治服務。部長一定能夠理解，我也希望我們彼此都一本初衷，堅持原則，打擊邪惡跟犯罪。院長、部長，我們務必要對好人更好，對壞人更壞，我們要改善這個世界，讓社會能夠安居樂業。我今天要謝謝兩位，也希望我們就這麼堅持下去。謝謝。"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們一起努力。"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員宗憲的質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","報告院會，司法及法制組之質詢已詢答完畢，休息5分鐘，休息之後，我們進行社會福利及衛生環境組之質詢。現在休息。","休息（9時18分）","繼續開會（9時24分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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