{"error":false,"id":["150411"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150411,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150411","日期":"2024-03-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-26T09:40:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-26T10:11:15+08:00","影片長度":"00:30:54","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee1346e0c255ee92e18ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a6a1ba94de77a37a3c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:40:21 - 10:11:15","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":151,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時40分）謝謝院長。有請陳院長跟衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長、衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長還有部長早。我是一位先天性子宮發育不全的病人，醫學的唯一解答就是代理孕母，我跟我先生也偷跑過，但是後來我們決定放棄，曝光而且公開呼籲要推動代孕解禁，目的是要幫助其他的病友有機會實現他們的心願。我一生從來沒有預期能夠今天在國會殿堂有30分鐘的時間來談今天的主題，我的主題就是「等待文明來解禁代孕」。等待文明來解禁代孕！院長，20年前，我寄了這本書給您。"],["陳院長建仁：有，謝謝你，而且那本書寫得很好，你為病人團體所提供的呼籲，我很感動。"],["陳委員昭姿：神啊！為什麼我不能有一個孩子？那時候是2004年的現在，當時我們臺灣剛經歷過SARS，您被認為是一個成功的任務型署長，所以我在蝴蝶頁上寫著「敬愛的署長，感謝您以專業跟愛心來守護台灣，我祈禱您的慈悲與智慧等同您的職位與權力。」幾天之後，我去衛生署向您陳情，而且我還指控人工生殖管理委員會是違憲的，他們從來沒有讓病人進去說話，他們沒有法令卻用行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人代孕，我還向您指控他們是一言堂，裡面充滿著、充斥著反對的聲音，連一個支持的聲音都沒有。院長，後來幾個月之後，您用臺灣第一次的公民會議回應了我的需求，我在此再向院長致謝，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：不會，不過很可惜代理孕母的事情沒有很快能夠實現，我也很遺憾，而且你對所有病人的照護和關心，我真的到現在都還很感動。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長。院長，但是最近有一些反對者說我當年是逼迫您來做這個公民會議。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：我何德何能！所以是不是在今天的質詢臺上，你能夠幫忙釐清當時為什麼您願意舉行一個公民會議，你的初衷跟你的想法是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我想在2004年那個年代，對於很多新的一些醫療措施怎麼樣來進行，實際上很多連醫界還有公民權利的學界也都沒有很瞭解，而當時最好的一個方法就是用公民審議的方式，讓公民在得到很完整知識的情況下，能夠來做決定，所以我也採納了我們臺大社會科學院同仁以及法律學院同仁的建議來實施這一個審議會。"],["陳委員昭姿：謝謝院長，謝謝院長您的釐清，這對我非常的重要。我也想告訴院長跟部長，在2002年的時候，賴清德立委就提出了支持代孕的法案，當時連署人也有蕭美琴立委、陳其邁立委，提案人跟連署人總共超出了30位，可見當時立委們對這個制度、對這個法案是有共識的。這份提案的總說明，因為是發生在22年前，有它的時空背景、它的用詞，我稍微唸一下，一個人不管是先天或後天的原因，缺乏傳宗接代所必需的生殖要素，這是不可彌補的身體缺憾，應該被公平地視為生殖機能上的障礙者。我們的社會仍然相當重視傳宗接代，在社會價值觀沒有改變之前，對於這些生殖機能有障礙的人，應該用寬大包容的心來幫助他們，而不是一味地要求他們放棄生育權、被強迫去收養小孩。請問院長，準總統跟準副總統在22年前就提出不應該一味地要求我們放棄生育權，這個平等法案您支持嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我當然支持。"],["陳委員昭姿：薛部長，您近期一直說這個法案是有爭議的，您知道您這個說法傷了多少人的心嗎？你知道天下哪一件事沒有爭議呢？部長，請問您看到賴立委、蕭立委在22年前就提出了這樣的法案，您會告訴他們說，你們提出了一個非常有爭議性的法案嗎？薛部長請回答，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：這是一個事實，對於這件事情，也就是人工代孕的這個事實，社會上是有不同的看法。"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！您自己也提到了。"],["陳委員昭姿：等一下我繼續給您更多的證據。請看下一張圖，你看當時的賴清德立委是多麼地認真，他很努力蒐集資料在告訴這些立委們為什麼他支持，而且他還做了一個調查，調查這些立委們，包括當時國民黨、民進黨還有新黨的立委，跨越藍綠總共超過30個人以上簽署了這個法案，而且他們的民調是這樣的，他們確認代孕的需求是存在的、是正確的、是需要大於不需要的，而且當時同意支持代孕制度的民進黨立委占了56%，是最高的，這個要讓部長跟院長都瞭解。","我想跟兩位首長談我們的故事跟人生，有很多人傳播錯誤的觀念，說不孕不是病，所以有一位很有名的黃姓諮商師說，我們只需要群體的心理治療，還有一位前臺北市社會局顧局長，他說不孕不是病，為什麼會痛苦？有人把代孕當成八卦議題來討論，我也曾經被保健處處長指著說，昭姿，你的社會運動要適可而止。還有一位非常知名的法律系教授對我說，人生不能什麼都想要。另外還有更多的人對我們說，不孕的解答就是收養，但是收養跟不孕有什麼關係呢？某位前法務部部長在電視上公然跟我說，收養跟親生一樣好，不過他自己是親生的。也有一位前總統公開呼籲，因為那個年代臺灣有很多棄嬰，他說臺灣有很多可憐的棄嬰，請不孕夫妻要發揮民族大愛，去收養這些小孩，這就是我們經歷的故事跟人生。","人工生殖技術帶來了非常大的挑戰，對生命改變了很多，例如說沒有精子或卵子，我們也有機會有下一代，這就是所謂的捐精、捐卵；例如說生命的起點可以發生在實驗室，而不是輸卵管。人工生殖技術也切割了生育跟養育的連結，譬如說代理孕母；人工生殖技術把自古以來生育連結的連續性分割了，每一個分割點就是診斷不孕或治療不孕非常關鍵的因素；人工生殖技術甚至可以幫助一些罹患重病的病人，包括癌症，他們可能因為治療而失去生育力，但是仍然抱著一線希望，未來還是可以保有追求幸福的期待。","我要講的是，代孕其實是奶媽的延伸，古代的人媽媽奶水不夠，他需要奶媽來奶他的孩子，那我們呢？我們就是子宮不健康啊！我需要有一個溫暖的子宮，讓我的孩子長大。","人工生殖科技帶來這麼多生命的改變，但是非常殘忍的就是禁止子宮有缺陷的人用這些科技，這是多麼的殘忍及不人道！我今天要在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議，為什麼子宮有障礙的人就是不能使用這個科技？整個社會從來沒有停止對我們的挑戰與質疑，所以身為已經知道自己是不孕的人，我會問自己，我有資格結婚嗎？我有資格戀愛嗎？我什麼時候該揭露我的資訊呢？什麼時候講？對誰講？我曾經為一對竹科情侶的女方家長做見證人，他媽媽寫的切結書讓我做見證人，切結書上寫的內容是隱瞞病情是應男方的要求，因為他媽媽擔心女兒對不起婆家。請問家庭與社會對我們的期待是什麼？結婚的時候，難道最常見的祝福語不是早生貴子嗎？結婚以後，最常出現的一句問候語難道不是什麼時候生小孩嗎？其實我們還是有身體隱私上的困擾，曾經有一位臺大醫科五年級學生的媽媽來找我求救，他的女兒嚷著要休學，為什麼呢？因為課堂上要做理學檢查，同學們互相做理學檢查，他擔心自己的秘密被曝光。其實我們就醫時，我個人也很擔心我要怎麼跟醫師說？在我們的婚姻過程當中，我被要求做子宮頸抹片檢查的時候，我該怎麼辦呢？所以有時候我有不得不的謊言，我在美國唸書的時候，我媽媽非常擔心我的室友發現我不需要使用衛生棉，他擔心我的身體秘密會曝光；我常常祈禱我不要生病住院，否則大家都知道我發生了什麼事情；看病的時候，其實我們是充滿焦慮的，因為合格的醫師一定會問一句，上次你的月經什麼時候來？這個跟用藥是有關的，這個時候我只好編造一個日期給他。","曝光後，我最常面對的話語就是健康人的道德勸說，他會說沒有小孩也很好，但是他們都有小孩；更多人說收養與親生的一樣好，但是他們絕對是親生孩子。那麼各界對不孕夫妻最常有的呼籲是什麼呢？就是要我們去收養小孩，收養棄嬰、收養孤兒，請問局外人可以為我們指定選項嗎？請問局外人可以安排我們的人生嗎？請問我們重大的人生選項需要局外人來做指定嗎？各位可以想見當事人們有多大的壓力，以至於30年來只有我和藝人小嫻公開承認我們需要代孕，30年來只有我陳昭姿一個人從頭到尾扮演代言人，為什麼呢？因為他們不敢站出來，他們的壓力太大了！不孕不是一個人的事，至少是兩個人的事，兩個家庭，甚至兩代家庭的事情。院長、部長，我們還要受到凌遲多久呢？","我收養小孩了，我的孩子被公認是個暖男，他在學校非常的活躍，也得過利他獎，但是不要忘記，也有一位社經地位很高的政治人物，他的收養案例是失敗的，孩子30幾歲以後，他們終止了收養關係，可見收養不是一件容易的事情！不孕者的選項是什麼？終生無後嗎？收養小孩嗎？還是可以訴諸人工生殖科技？我要談的重點是，其實收養的問題遠遠大於捐精、捐卵，收養本身，讓我來形容，因為我做過了，我收養了孩子，它是一個不自願捐精加不自願捐卵加不自願代孕三種組合，三件事情的後遺症都會發生在收養身上，收養在臺灣還是一個相對禁忌的話題，收養身世的告知是蠻難為的，什麼時機是適合的呢？還有收養孩子本身，他對自己身世的感受跟認知是什麼？社會外面、局外人有時候會對孩子有好奇或探問。所以我要告訴兩位首長，其實收出養這件事情不但是出養家庭、收養家庭，還有孩子本身可能都要做一輩子的功課，他們內心長期是受到一些挑戰的。我曾經詢問衛福部社家署的署長，因為他們負責收出養業務，我非常驚訝，但是也如預期的，完全沒有資料，臺灣沒有這些收出養的資料彙整、分析評估，你們知道嗎？其他多少國家對收養法不斷的檢討、不斷的改進，甚至英國幾十版的修正，為什麼呢？因為收養的問題層出不窮。","接下來我想談法律跟科技的落差，醫學生殖科技進步了，可以幫助不孕原因的診斷跟治療，但是我們的感受是，子宮有障礙，不是不救，是不肯救。生殖科技也是為了幫助人民、增進幸福，滿足他的心願，但是政府與反對者卻要我們接受命運，禁止我們使用科技，所以有資源的人只好迴避禁令，偷偷在國內，是的，偷偷在國內，包括我都曾經在國內進行代孕，或遠到海外去執行代孕。有關人工生殖法的部分我也很有意見，捐精、捐卵，尤其是捐精這個部分，在默許了十幾年之後，在2007年才立法管理，而且據我瞭解，我也向國健署瞭解過，捐精沒有追蹤，後果堪慮啊！代孕那麼清楚，卻要阻擋，經過兩次公民會議的討論，長期被擱置。我覺得這是歧視、這是偏見，我在國會殿堂這裡要表達最嚴重的抗議，對代孕是歧視、是偏見，我要提出最嚴重的抗議！","我也要再次抗議違憲的行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕，他們處罰的對象是醫師，不讓醫師來幫病人做，最嚴重的時期甚至是威脅要撤銷醫師的證照，所以我一輩子不會說合法化，我講的是代孕解禁，我講的是法制化，因為我們從來沒有犯過法。我也曾經長期向立法委員們訴願、請願，我參與過無數的公聽會，我一直訴諸媒體，甚至醫學課堂，我在1996年用真實姓名去面對大眾，用報紙呼籲要解禁代孕。在2010年SARS之後，教育部規劃了一個醫學人文課程，當中有一堂課叫做疾病的誤解跟社會偏見，我受邀到全國的醫學系去上課，我談的就是代孕，那一次的課程、那幾年的課程讓我覺得代孕從八卦的議題進入大學的教室，讓我覺得這是遲來的正義，我也受到非常強烈的震撼。","請問各位有人看過民國80年的報紙嗎？這份是民國80年的報紙，民國80年10月23日的報紙，民生報，它的標題是「一個沒有子宮女人的深閨怨」，後面三個字大概是編輯加上去的，子標題是「沒有法，故事就永無結局」。其實當時民生報錯把筆名的位置放了真名，讓我痛不欲生，後來總編李淑娟向我道歉，第二天我們做了一些補救，讓我的醫師跟我寫了一些文章，我指稱這個病人是我的朋友，不是我自己，但是為了幫助他，我用第一人稱來稱呼他。其實那個病人是我自己，只是當時我還沒有準備好要公開面對這件事情。我當初在呼籲代孕解禁時的觀點是不孕者跟不孕家庭的權益，因為當時有很多國家都是先進國家、歐美國家通過了代孕，他們沒有少子化國安問題，也沒有傳宗接代的壓力，那他們為什麼會同意呢？因為他們認為這是人權。","但是時至今日，我想院長和部長都知道，臺灣的生育率一直都是倒數前兩名，2017年開始我們出生的孩子人數已經少於死亡的人數，我的辦公室也歡迎各位來參觀，在我的辦公室門口會貼著這兩個數字─出生人數和死亡人數，上個月出生人數不到1萬人，已經破了新低。但是整個國家的人口政策都偏重在要求、呼籲、幫助健康的人生小孩，這是沒有錯的，對於無法生育的人呢？對於有代孕需求的人卻絕口不提，為什麼？我在這裡想請問部長，對於少數偏激、自私、健康、充滿意識形態、充滿被害妄想症的一群反對者，他們的意見有那麼重要嗎？我們需求者的意見呢？還有我們的心願呢？還有願意幫助我們成全代孕的這群女性的意願呢？難道政府沒有自己的政策方針嗎？難道你認為多一事不如少一事嗎？部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實完全是有非常大的爭議，因為這牽涉到第三人，剛剛委員所提出來的，2002年那時候賴清德副總統當立委有推這個案子，但是後來沒有通過。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我想要告訴你……"],["薛部長瑞元：所以表示那個爭議還是很大。"],["陳委員昭姿：請不要再說爭議了，好嗎？衛福部很多東西是爭議的，照做不誤啊！爭議這件事情，我可以告訴你，因為全臺灣只有我有最多數字，告訴我願意代孕的女性比需求的女性還多，我手上是一堆名單，請不要忽略這些願意幫人家代孕的心願，這也是他的權利，他想成全別人。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以這要經過大家的討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：請部長瞭解一下什麼叫公民會議，公民會議是個簡稱，原來叫公民共識會議，這是民主國家行之有年的一種審議式民主，公民會議就是讓一群不具有專業知識基礎的公民經過報名，然後隨機取樣的。他們會針對這個爭議性的政策進行討論，找出他們想要瞭解的問題，在一個公開的論壇上向專家學者們詢問，他們自己也可以指定誰來讓他們備詢，並在有一定程度的知識和訊息的基礎下，他們討論、辯論、找出結論、找出共識，做成報告公諸於世，交給國家作為政策參考，這就叫公民會議。院長，我知道您還記得您幫我主持的這次會議，這是多麼嚴謹，而且參與者是高度瞭解所有資訊的，所謂well informed的，就是充分知情的一群公民，他們的結論是同意的，而且院長答應我半年後有進度。陳院長，我現在還在苦苦等待您當年的承諾，您可以兌現您的承諾嗎？當時您只是衛生署署長，現在您貴為行政院院長，您可以兌現您對我的承諾嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：當時公民審議會議之後，我們也是把相關的法律準備要提出，但是很可惜在立法院的討論，就如同剛才另外一個案子也一樣，都沒有在大院裡面得到通過。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長，不好意思！我覺得國家政府應該有自己的政策，不是什麼都訴諸民意，我看到民意不高的也照做了，有心做就能夠做，想做就能夠做。"],["陳院長建仁：對，所以這裡面就是有不同的……"],["陳委員昭姿：我們來回顧一下兩次公民會議的結論，第一次是在2004年，就是您擔任署長的時候，當時有兩項結論，第一個是同意有條件開放代孕。第二項很特別，因為我剛剛提到很多人叫我們收養，不要去搞代孕了，我很成功的說服那群公民，把收養制度也放在這一次的結論裡。有關收養制度，他們是這麼講的，不應該因為有需要收養的孩童，而將收養強加於不孕者，並對選擇代孕者加以嚴厲之道德批判，這就是我被對待的方式。收養與代孕不是誰優於誰的價值判斷，都是可採行的管道，這麼清楚、具有邏輯，還具有價值觀的結論，竟然在20年前的公民會議出現，實在是令人敬佩跟感動。"],["陳院長建仁：對，他們很了不起，他們當時得到完整的資訊……"],["陳委員昭姿：我讓部長也一邊瞭解公民會議的水準。第二次公民會議是發生在2012年9月邱淑媞署長的時代，我唸一下其結論：不孕委託者同時提供精跟卵，就同時都有了，應該早日開放；不孕委託者僅提供其中一個精或卵，也應該予以開放。無論最終政府開放的是哪一種類型的代孕，政府都應該積極介入代孕制度的運作，政府要積極介入！當時國健署副署長孔憲蘭也在記者會公開說：衛生署傾向支持代孕；然而一延宕，那時是2012年，又經過12年了。","歷年來我們做了多少努力，1996年行政院法規會陳美伶主委曾推出甲、乙兩版的草案；2010年7月國健署舉行兩天的國際研討會，邀請英美專家跟當事者到臺灣來分享討論，從此以後，國健署非常積極地召開會議，最後在2016年提出了草案；這當中，國健署做了三次全國性的民調，即2010年、2013年及2015年，而大體上的結論是六成人支持，兩成人不反對，所以臺灣有八成的民眾是可以接受代孕的。但是儘管有國際研討會、兩次公民會議、全國性的民調三次，以及無數的公聽會跟國健署的草案，到今天人工生殖法還是選擇性的無視於子宮有障礙者的代孕需求。院長，一個攸關生育權的法案，您覺得延宕的30年是合情、合理、合法、合憲嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我想我們再繼續來努力啦！不過……"],["陳委員昭姿：院長跟部長，你們要凌遲我們多久呢？還要繼續凌遲我們的需求者多久呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：報告委員，最終的解決還是必須要在立法院，我們可以儘量在各個過程把它縮短，把草案送到立法院。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我聽到你要儘量做，您是一位婦產科醫師。我現在談反對者的理由跟意識形態，這麼多年來，我們來看反對者反對了什麼，30年來理由一成不變耶！反對者指控我們說這個會讓兒童的心理不平衡、不健康，但是明明就有很多、很多國外的研究指出，他們比較透過代孕生出的孩子跟傳統方式生出的小孩，在心理健康跟生理健康根本沒有差別，好嘛？這種臆測之詞，這個是空想之詞！完全不符合科學的驗證，這是第一個，大家都可以去查這份報告。","第二個，反對者指控代孕會將女性物化或工具化，我想相對於妻子跟媳婦，代孕者難道不是最有百分之百的主導權嗎？他不是有百分之百的自主權嗎？我能夠逼迫一個女生幫我代孕嗎？你知道倫理學的基礎是什麼？我想院長或部長應該知道，倫理學的基礎就是自主性，autonomy是最高的原則，自主性是非常重要的，當然不孕夫妻可以選擇生或不生，可以選擇要不要去委託代孕，代孕者有百分百的權利決定要不要幫人家代孕，他有百分之百的決定權，哪來的物化跟工具化之說呢？那些反對者，如果我是你的女兒，如果我是你最愛的親人，你還會這樣指控我嗎？還有一些人指控代孕者會因為社經弱勢被欺壓，非常感謝另外一位委員陳菁徽委員，他也是婦產科醫師，他在質詢或是在公聽會的時候都清楚地指出，他用了最新的一篇加拿大研究報告，在287位代理孕母中，大家都是基於利他心態（helping others），幫助別人的心態去代孕，他們認為代孕是在助人、在幫助人擁有一個家庭，而且53%的人是大學教育以上，50%的人是有工作的，他不是經濟弱勢，也不是貧窮者。","院長、部長，從曝光到今天，我從來都不是為自己，但是我背後站了一群有需求的人，曾經有多少人在這30年當中苦苦等待，終至絕望，正式進入醫師的傷心檔案，兩位知道什麼叫傷心檔案嗎？傷心檔案裡面最悲慘的案件是什麼嗎？院長、部長，那就是有女性因為不孕而結束自己的生命。所以我希望部長跟院長可以把這幾句話帶回去，放在心上帶回去，將心比心，成全別人追求幸福是人生的最高境界，希望你們回去用行動來幫助我們。院長，我再提醒您，我知道您說您曾期許自己成為世上的光、地上的眼，要做一支小蠟燭照亮臺灣，院長，我希望你能夠秉持這個觀念、秉持這個信念，為我們這群弱勢的病人發光，成為他們的光，好嗎？院長。"],["陳院長建仁：謝謝你為不孕症者反映這些心聲，我覺得你很勇敢，而且很慈悲、很善良，這件事情我們會全力以赴，跟各界再來做最深入的溝通，希望在短期內就有很好的成果。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，也期許部長，謝謝部長，謝謝院長跟部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員昭姿質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第3位林委員憶君質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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318.846,"end":340.214,"text":"就提出不應該一面的要求我們放棄生育權。這個平等法案您支持嗎?我當然支持。部長、學部長您近期一直對這個法案說它是有爭議的。您知道您這個說法傷了多少人的心嗎?您知道天下哪一件事沒有爭議呢?"},{"start":341.874,"end":363.536,"text":"部長請問您看到賴立委、蕭立委,他們在22年前就提出了這樣的法案。您會告訴他們說,你們提出了一個非常有爭議性的法案嗎?薛部長請回答,謝謝。這個是一個事實,那對於這件事情,人工代孕的這個事實的話是有不同的看法。"},{"start":365.191,"end":386.733,"text":"社會上有不同的看法。等一下我繼續給您更多的證據。請看下一張圖。你看當時的賴清德立委是多麼的認真。他很努力收集資料在告訴這些立委們為什麼他支持。而且他還做了一個調查。調查這些立委們。包括當時是國民黨、民進黨還有新黨的立委。"},{"start":387.654,"end":388.334,"text":"我這個讓部長跟院長都了解。"},{"start":414.349,"end":437.53,"text":"我想跟兩位所長談我們的故事跟人生有很多人傳播錯誤的觀念說不孕不是病所以有一位很有名的黃姓諮商商說我們只需要群體的心理治療還有一位前台北市社會局顧局長他說不孕不是病為什麼會痛苦"},{"start":439.414,"end":465.908,"text":"有人把代孕當成八卦議題來討論。我也曾經被保健處處長指著說,昭姿你的社會運動要適可而止。還有一位非常知名的法律系教授對我說,人生不能什麼都想要。另外還有更多的人對我們說,不孕的解答就是收養。但是收養跟不孕有什麼關係呢?"},{"start":468.015,"end":496.863,"text":"某位前法務部部長他在電視上公然跟我說收養跟親生一樣好不過他自己是親生的那也有一位前總統他公開呼籲當時台灣有很多的棄嬰那個年代他說台灣有很多可憐的棄嬰請不孕夫妻要發揮民族大愛去收養這些小孩這就是我們經歷的故事跟人生"},{"start":499.502,"end":520.43,"text":"人工生殖技術帶來了非常大的挑戰對生命改變了很多例如說沒有精或卵子我們也有機會有下一代這就是所謂的捐精捐卵例如說生命的起點可以發生在實驗室而不是輸卵管"},{"start":521.84,"end":550.843,"text":"人工生殖技術也切割了生育跟養育的連結。比如說代理運動。人工生殖技術把自古以來生育的連結、連續性分割了。每一個分割點就是診斷不應或治療不應的非常關鍵的一個因素。人工生殖技術甚至可以幫助有一些罹患重病的病人,包括癌症。他們可能因為治療而失去生育力。"},{"start":551.864,"end":576.906,"text":"但是仍然抱著一線希望,未來還是可以保有、追求幸福的這樣的一個期待。其實我要講,代孕其實是奶媽的延伸。古代的人媽媽奶水不夠,他需要奶媽來奶他的孩子。那我們呢,我們就是子宮不健康啊。我需要一個溫暖的子宮,讓我的孩子長大。"},{"start":578.53,"end":601.648,"text":"人工生殖科技帶來這麼多生命的改變但是非常殘忍的就是禁止子宮有缺陷的人不可以用這些科技這是多麼的殘忍跟不人道我今天要在國會殿堂提出最嚴重的抗議為什麼子宮有障礙的人他就是不能使用這個科技"},{"start":604.844,"end":632.817,"text":"整個社會從來沒有停止對我們的挑戰跟質疑所以身為已經知道自己是不孕的人我會問自己我有資格結婚嗎?我有資格戀愛嗎?我什麼時候該揭露我的資訊呢?什麼時候講?對誰講?我曾經為一對竹科的情侶的女方家長她媽媽寫的切結書讓我做見證人"},{"start":635.393,"end":663.33,"text":"確切書上寫的內容是隱瞞病情是因男方的要求因為他媽媽擔心女兒對不起婆家請問家庭與社會對我們的期待是什麼?結婚的時候難道最常見的祝福語不是早生貴子嗎?結婚以後最常出現的一句問候語難道不是什麼時候生小孩嗎?"},{"start":666.129,"end":692.187,"text":"其實我們還是有身體隱私上的困擾曾經有一位台大醫科五年級學生的媽媽來找我求救她的女兒嚷著要休學為什麼呢因為課堂上要做理學檢查同學們互相做理學檢查她擔心自己的秘密被曝光其實我們就醫時我個人也很擔心我要怎麼跟醫師說"},{"start":694.738,"end":721.293,"text":"在我們的婚姻過程當中我被要求做子宮頸抹面檢查的時候我該怎麼辦呢?所以有時候我有不得不的謊言我在美國念書的時候我媽媽非常擔心我的室友發現我不需要使用衛生棉她擔心我的身體秘密會曝光我常常祈禱我不要生病住院否則大家都知道我發生了什麼事情"},{"start":724.076,"end":753.742,"text":"看病的時候其實我們是充滿焦慮的因為合格的醫師一定會問一句上次你的月經什麼時候來這個跟用藥是有關的這個時候我只好編一個日期編造一個日期給他護光後我最常面對的話語就是健康人的道德勸說他會說沒有小孩也很好但是他們都有小孩更多人說收養跟親生的一樣好但是他們絕對是親生孩子"},{"start":755.967,"end":775.753,"text":"那麼各界對不孕夫妻最常有的呼籲是什麼呢?就是要我們去收養小孩、收養棄嬰、收養孤兒。請問局外人可以為我們指定選項嗎?請問局外人可以安排我們的人生嗎?請問我們重大的人生選項需要局外人來做指定嗎?"},{"start":778.069,"end":797.942,"text":"各位可以想見當事人們有多大的壓力以至於30年來只有我跟藝人小嫻公開承認我們需要代孕30年來只有我一個人陳昭姿一個人從頭到尾扮演代言人為什麼呢"},{"start":799.554,"end":805.655,"text":"院長、部長,我們還要受到凌遲多久呢?我收養小孩了。我的孩子被公認是個暖男。他在學校非常的活躍,也得過立他獎。"},{"start":826.155,"end":851.324,"text":"但是不要忘記也有一位射精地位很高的政治人物他的收養案例是失敗的30幾歲以後孩子30幾歲以後他們終止了收養關係可見收養不是一件容易的事情福運者的選項是什麼?終身無後嗎?收養小孩嗎?還是可以訴諸人工生殖科技"},{"start":852.742,"end":879.087,"text":"我要談的重點是其實收養的問題遠遠大於捐精捐卵收養本身是一個讓我來形容因為我做過了我收養了孩子他是一個不自願捐精加不自願捐卵加不自願代孕三種組合三件事情的後遺症都會發生在收養身上收養在臺灣還是一個相對禁忌的話題"},{"start":881.437,"end":881.798,"text":"所以我要告訴兩位首長"},{"start":902.113,"end":905.476,"text":"我曾經詢問衛福部社家署的署長,因為他們負責收出養業務。我非常驚訝,但是"},{"start":925.902,"end":927.262,"text":"接下來我想談法律跟科技的落差。"},{"start":952.714,"end":979.398,"text":"醫學生殖科技進步了可以幫助不義原因的診斷跟治療但是我們的感受是子宮有障礙不是不救是不肯救不是不救是不肯救生殖科技原是為了幫助人民增進幸福滿足他的心願但是政府與反對者卻要我們接受命運禁止我們使用科技"},{"start":981.3,"end":1005.362,"text":"所以有資源的人只好回避禁令,偷偷在國內,是的,偷偷在國內,包括我的曾經,在國內進行待遇,或遠到海外去執行待遇。有關人工生殖法的部分,我也很有意見。捐金捐軟,尤其是捐金這個部分,在默許了十幾年之後,在2007年才立法管理。"},{"start":1006.786,"end":1034.593,"text":"而且據我瞭解我也向國建署瞭解過捐金沒有追蹤後果堪慮啊大運那麼清楚卻要阻擋經過兩次公民會議的討論長期被擱置我覺得這是歧視這是偏見我在這裡要國會殿堂表達最嚴重的抗議對大運是歧視去偏見我要提出最嚴重的抗議"},{"start":1037.489,"end":1060.178,"text":"我也要再次抗議違憲的行政命令來禁止醫師幫病人執行代孕他們處罰的對象是醫師不讓醫師來幫病人做最嚴重的時期甚至是威脅要撤銷醫師的證照所以我一輩子不會說合法化我講的是代孕解禁我講的是法治化因為我們從來沒有犯過法"},{"start":1062.438,"end":1075.49,"text":"我也曾經長期向立法委員們訴願請願我參與過無數的公聽會我一直訴諸媒體甚至醫學課堂我在1996年用真實姓名去面對"},{"start":1077.75,"end":1104.162,"text":"大眾用報紙呼籲要解禁代孕我在2010年那是SARS之後教育部規劃了一個醫學人文課程當中有一堂課叫做疾病的誤解跟社會偏見我受邀到全國的醫學系去上課我談的就是代孕那一次的課程那幾年的課程讓我覺得代孕從八卦的議題進入大學的教室讓我覺得這是馳來的正義"},{"start":1106.462,"end":1133.037,"text":"我也受到非常強烈的震撼。請問各位有人看過民國八十年的報紙嗎?這一份是民國八十年的報紙。民國八十年10月23號的報紙。民生報。它的標題是一個沒有子宮女人的生歸院。後面三個字大概是編輯加上去的。指標題是沒有法故事永遠沒有結局。"},{"start":1134.488,"end":1159.801,"text":"其實當時民生報錯把筆名的位置放了真名讓我痛不欲生後來總編李淑娟向我道歉第二天我們做了一些補救讓我的醫師跟我寫了一些文章我只稱這個病人是我的朋友不是我自己但是為了幫助他我用第一人稱來稱呼他其實那個病人是我自己"},{"start":1161.052,"end":1185.834,"text":"只是當時我還沒有準備好要公開面對這件事情我當初在呼籲代孕解禁的時候的觀點是不孕者跟不孕家庭的權益因為當時有很多國家都是先進國家歐美國家通過了代孕他們沒有少子化國安問題也沒有傳宗接代的壓力那他為什麼會同意呢因為他們認為這是人權"},{"start":1189.346,"end":1214.609,"text":"但是時至今日我想院長跟部長都知道臺灣一直都是生育率倒數前兩名2017年開始我們出生的孩子的人數已經少於死亡的人數在我的辦公室也歡迎各位來參觀我的辦公室門口會貼的這兩個數字出生人數跟死亡人數上個月出生人數不到1萬人已經破了新低了"},{"start":1215.543,"end":1226.784,"text":"但是整個國家的人口政策都偏重在要求呼籲幫助健康的人要生小孩這是沒有錯的但是對於無法生育的人呢"},{"start":1228.619,"end":1254.729,"text":"對於代孕需求的人絕口不提。為什麼?我這裡想請問部長,對於少數偏激自私健康充滿意識形態充滿被害妄想症的一群反對者,他們的意見有那麼重要嗎?我們需求者的意見呢?還有我們的心願呢?還有願意幫助我們成全代孕的這群女性的意願呢?"},{"start":1256.227,"end":1271.403,"text":"難道政府沒有自己的政策方針嗎?難道你認為多一事不如少一事嗎?部長這個部分的話其實就是他完全是有非常大的爭議因為這牽涉到一個第三人"},{"start":1272.247,"end":1294.94,"text":"那剛剛委員所提出2002年那時候賴清德副總統當立委的時候他有推這個案子但是後來沒有通過我想要告訴你所以表示說那個爭議還是連台灣請不要再做生意了爭議好嗎您的東西很多衛福很多東西是爭議的造作不悟啊"},{"start":1296.803,"end":1311.732,"text":"爭議這件事情我可以告訴你因為全台灣只有我最多這個數字願意代孕的女性比需求的女性告訴我的還多我手上是一堆名單請不要忽略這些願意幫人家代孕人他的心願這也是他的權利他想成全別人"},{"start":1314.793,"end":1340.927,"text":"請部長了解一下什麼叫公民會議。下一張公民會議。公民會議就是,它是個簡稱,原來叫公民共識會議。這是民主國家行之有年一種審議式的民主。公民會議就是讓一群公民,他沒有具有專業知識基礎。這群公民是經過報名,然後隨機取樣的。然後他們會針對這個爭議性的政策進行討論,然後找出他們想要了解的問題。然後在一個公開的論壇上,"},{"start":1342.088,"end":1365.408,"text":"就向這個專家學者們詢問他們自己也可以指定誰來讓他們做備選然後他們在有一定的程度的知識跟訊息的基礎下他們討論他們辯論他們找出結論他們找出共識然後做成報告公諸於世交給國家做政策的參考這就叫公民會議"},{"start":1367.165,"end":1388.22,"text":"院長我知道您還記得這個您幫我主持這次會議這是多麼嚴謹而且參與者是高度了解所有資訊的人所謂的well informed就是充分知情的一群公民他們的結論是同意的而且院長您答應我院長您答應我半年後有進度欸"},{"start":1389.422,"end":1400.062,"text":"陳院長我現在還在苦苦等待您當年的承諾,您可以兌現您的承諾嗎?當時您只是衛生署署長,現在您貴為行政院院長,您可以兌現您對我的承諾嗎?"},{"start":1401.766,"end":1425.696,"text":"這就是在當時公民審議會議之後我們也是把相關的法律準備要提出但是很可惜很可惜在立法院的討論就如同剛才另外一個案子也一樣都沒有在大院裡面得到通過我覺得國家政府應該有自己的政策不是什麼都訴諸民意我看到民意不高的也照做了"},{"start":1426.476,"end":1452.216,"text":"有經過就能夠做,想做就能做。我們來回顧一下公民會議的兩次結論。我們第一次在2014年就是林丹任署長的時候,當時有兩項結論。第一個是同意有條件開放代孕。第二項很特別的就是因為我剛剛提到,很多人叫我們收養不要去搞代孕。所以我很成功地說服那群公民,把收養制度也放在這一次的結論裡。"},{"start":1453.397,"end":1470.205,"text":"有關收養之主他們是這麼講的,不應該因為有需要收養的孩童而將收養強加於不孕者,並對選擇代孕者加以嚴厲的道德批判。這就是我被對待的方式。收養與代孕不是誰優於誰的價值判斷,都是可採行的管道。"},{"start":1471.608,"end":1496.641,"text":"這麼清楚具有邏輯還具有價值觀的這個結論竟然在20年前的公民會議會出現實在是令人敬佩跟感動他們很了不起他們當時我讓部長有一邊了解公民會議的水準第二次公民會議是發生在2012年9月邱淑婷署長的時代我就唸一下她的結論不願委託者同時提供金跟軟就同時都有了應該早日開放"},{"start":1497.381,"end":1522.436,"text":"無印委託的錦亭宮其中一個經貨卵也應該予以開放那無論最終政府開放的是哪一種類型的代孕政府都應該積極介入代孕制度的運作政府要積極介入當時國建署副組長孔憲蘭也在記者會公開說未身處傾向支持這個代孕然而一言當那是2012年又經過12年了好"},{"start":1526.704,"end":1551.702,"text":"一年來我們做了多少努力。1996年行政院法會委主委陳美玲主委曾推出甲乙兩板的草案。2010年7月國建署舉行了兩天的國際研討會,邀請英美專家跟當事者到臺灣來分享、討論。從此以後國建署非常積極地召開會議,最後在2016年提出了草案。"},{"start":1553.288,"end":1571.729,"text":"那這當中國建署做了三次全國性的民調全國性的民調2010年2013年2015年大體上的結論是六成人支持兩成人不反對所以臺灣有八成的民眾是可以接受代孕的但是儘管有國際研討會"},{"start":1573.387,"end":1573.967,"text":"我想我們再繼續來努力"},{"start":1600.22,"end":1610.51,"text":"議長跟部長,你要臨時我們多久呢?你還要繼續臨時我們就需求的多久呢?報告委員,這最終的解決還是必須要在立法院"},{"start":1611.793,"end":1636.488,"text":"我們是可以說盡量在這個過程把它縮短,把草案送到議法院。護長我聽到你要盡量做,就是說您是一個婦產科醫師,我現在見到反對者的理由跟意識形態,好這麼多年來我們來看反對者反對了什麼,30年來理由一成不變了,反對者指控我們說這個會讓兒童的心理不平衡不健康,"},{"start":1638.336,"end":1665.083,"text":"但是明明就有很多很多國外的研究指出透過代孕生出的孩子跟傳統方式生出的小孩他們做比較在心理健康跟生理健康根本沒有差別好嗎這種臆測之詞這個是空想之詞完全不符合科學的驗證這是第一個大家都可以去查這個報告第二個反對者指控代孕會將女性物化或工具化"},{"start":1666.687,"end":1690.008,"text":"我想相對於妻子跟媳婦,代孕難道不是最有百分之百的主導權嗎?他不是有百分之百的自主權嗎?我能夠逼迫一個女生幫我代孕嗎?你知道倫理學的基礎是什麼?我想院長或部長應該知道,倫理學的基礎就是一個自主性,autonomy,是最高的原則。"},{"start":1691.269,"end":1716.951,"text":"自主性是非常重要的當然不孕夫妻他可以選擇生或不生他可以選擇要不要去委託代孕代孕者有百分百的權利決定他要不要幫人家代孕他有百分之百的決定權哪來的物化跟工具化之說呢如果那些反對者如果我是你的女兒如果我是你最愛的親人你還會這樣指控我嗎"},{"start":1719.091,"end":1733.508,"text":"還有一些人指控代孕者會因為射精弱勢被欺壓。非常感謝另外一位委員陳金輝委員他也是婦產隔離師他在質詢的時候或是在公聽的時候都清楚的指出他用了最新的一篇報告"},{"start":1734.389,"end":1763.328,"text":"加拿大的研究報告287位代理母大家都是基於利他的心態helping others幫助別人的心態去做代孕他們認為代孕是在助人在幫助人擁有一個家庭而且53%的人是大學教育以上50%的人是有工作的他不是工作他不是經濟弱勢也不是貧窮者部長從曝光的那天我從來都不是為自己但是我背後站了一群需求的人"},{"start":1764.505,"end":1792.265,"text":"曾經有多少人在這30年當中苦苦等待終至絕望正式進入醫師的傷心檔案兩位知道什麼叫傷心檔案嗎?傷心檔案裡面最悲慘的案件是什麼嗎?院長部長那就是有女性因為不孕而結束自己的生命所以我希望部長跟院長可以把這幾句話帶回去放在心上帶回去將心比心成全別人追求幸福"},{"start":1793.26,"end":1813.683,"text":"是人生的最高境界。將心比心,成全別人,追求幸福是人生的最高境界。希望你們回去用行動來幫助我們。院長,我再提醒您。我知道您說您曾期許自己成為世上的光、地上的炎。要做一支小蠟燭,照亮台灣。"},{"start":1815.14,"end":1843.2,"text":"院長,我希望您能秉持這個觀念,秉持這個信念,為我們這群弱勢的病人發光,成為他們的光,好嗎?院長謝謝你為不孕症者所反映的這一些心聲,我覺得你很勇敢,而且很慈悲,很善良。那這件事情我們會全力以赴,跟各界再來做最深入的溝通,希望在短期內就有很好的成果。那也期許部長"},{"start":1848.724,"end":1849.285,"text":"謝謝陳委員召職質詢,也謝謝陳院長的備詢。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}