{"error":false,"id":["150416"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150416,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150416","日期":"2024-03-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-26T11:20:56+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-26T11:37:55+08:00","影片長度":"00:16:59","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023eebc81e25705e946f78ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a638043a962e3fa4b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:20:56 - 11:37:55","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時21分）主席，我請院長以及衛福部薛部長。"],["主席：麻煩請陳院長、衛福部備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：王委員午安。"],["王委員世堅：院長午安，部長午安。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：院長，我們國家的醫療品質跟收費，我如果用4個字來形容，就叫做價廉物美，那麼價廉物美的醫療其實是建立在長時間以來醫護人員他們的犧牲，比方說，大家很清楚護理人員他們的工作繁重、工作環境有待改善，而且他們的收入不高，加上在疫情期間種種的危險加給一下子給、一下子要回，我覺得這些某種程度上對他們造成人格的污衊，所以你看，最近這一兩年我們護理人員大量的流失。這一年多來我們也因為護理人員流失，造成醫病比不夠，所以我們國內各大中小醫院平均大概關床率關了兩成，我們有這些醫院、有這些病床，但是沒有這麼多護理人員，還好天佑臺灣，這兩年來沒有再發生重大的流行病。那我今天特別要提到的是在基層醫療診所的部分，也就是說，基層醫療診所長年來因為我們的健保給付是總額給付，那總額給付的結果，這四大項分類是醫學中心、區域醫院、地區醫院及基層醫療診所，結果基層醫療診所因為他們成本過高，他們個人要負擔這些房租、所有護理人員、藥師以及他們購買藥品的藥價，當然會遠比大型的醫學中心要高很多，沒有 discount嘛！結果他們要負擔這麼多的高成本之下，又沒有業外收入，大型醫院可以有很多業外收入啊！有租金的收入、停車場的收入，還有其他美食街、便利商店這些收入，可是他們沒有嘛！在這樣的情況下，我舉去年為例好了，去年基層醫療診所，尤其是在我們臺北地區因為人口最稠密，在去年五、六月的時候COVID-19有一部分復發的情況，所以醫療的耗用增加，點值已經跌到0.9以下，那去年底又來一波流感，得了流感大家去的最多的當然就是直接去基層醫療診所，在這兩個因素之下，臺北區的基層醫療點數甚至達到0. 81。所以院長、部長，我在這邊要求，是不是要撥補預算給基層醫療診所，讓他們達到至少符合他們的成本，浮動的醫療點值要在0.9，不足的部分由行政院、由衛福部來撥補預算。部長、院長，你們的看法呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：有關於去年因為解封之後，把COVID-19相關的治療費用移到健保來，所以會造成整個點值下降，因為它的使用就增加了，這個部分我們已經有方案在做處理，第一季跟第二季，基層的部分其實已經有相當的補助，第三季現在正在結算當中，也應該會跟第一季、第二季同樣的方法去補助。"],["王委員世堅：部長，你也承認有這個情況嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，有。"],["王委員世堅：院長，你們兩位都是相關這一部分的專業人才，所以你們知道有這個情況，「毛蟹沒腳也走不了」，非得要有醫療診所幫我們全國的醫療來降低整體……我們小病看小醫院，大病看大醫院，透過轉診，這樣子我們醫療的支出才有辦法負荷。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以去年的點值不到0.9是OK的。"],["王委員世堅：如果讓他們連成本都不到，如果年年虧損、失血的話，我們失去了這些基層醫療診所，那我們全國的醫療將會崩潰。"],["陳院長建仁：確實。"],["王委員世堅：院長，剛才部長講得很清楚，他知道有這個情況。"],["陳院長建仁：對，而且這個情況就是……他講得很好，就是因為在去年還有COVID的給付，本來以前都是用特別條例的錢，現在把它進入健保的給付，健保裡面當然醫療照顧就增加，所以那個點值會下降，所以我們去年從第一季、第二季到第三季都會調整，讓它的點值能夠到0.9，這個點值是因為我們用總額預算的關係，才會有點值的調動，它這個目的很多，不能夠單單從點值就來講說我們給醫院的照顧是不好，我們要看看這個點值下降的理由，如果是COVID……"],["王委員世堅：院長，這就是我跟你提的，我就是說總額給付當然基於很多原因……"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["王委員世堅：道德風險的評估，這都應當，但是當我們在醫療的這一部分，我們健保收入的部分在開源節流之外，我認為如果差額300億、500億，對我們整體一年國家的支出2兆9,000億而言，那不是什麼大錢嘛，所以我們應該來撥補、幫助基層醫療診所，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果說一定金額以上的話，財務上面負擔還是可能有問題。"],["王委員世堅：部長你請回，時間暫停。"],["陳院長建仁：委員要不要喝點水？"],["王委員世堅：主席，我可不可以喝水？"],["陳院長建仁：可以，那邊是你的水。"],["主席：沒有問題，請。"],["陳院長建仁：慢慢來，不要緊。"],["王委員世堅：院長，我再來要跟您就教幾項問題，希望你能夠積極的伸出援手。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王委員世堅：第一點就是社子島的開發，社子島現在的慘狀，社子島的島民們已經委屈了70年之久，這個地方如果大家有去看的話，那根本像個鬼島，沒有衛生設施，連基本的診所都沒有，也沒有衛生下水道，到處都是違章工廠林立，說實在話，我們公共建設在那邊是近乎零的公共建設，現在社子島的開發已經經過多次各方專家研議的結果，市政府也已經早就簽到我們行政院來，在內政部審查，現在用的叫做生態社子島開發，這能夠最符合環保人士，也符合全體市民，大家共同可以來使用這個水岸的城鎮最好的方式。現在唯一在反對的，97.5%的島民都支持，絕大多數的市民也都支持，少數、極少數社子島的居民，2.5%的居民反對的原因竟然是說開發會圖利當地的居民，我覺得這是非常離譜的！如果這叫做圖利的話，院長，那我們所有公共建設都不要做啦！過去開闢馬路都圖利兩旁的地主囉？如果所有的開發都叫圖利，過去70年政府都在圖利民間，不是這樣嗎？既然圖利了70年的所有民間，為什麼獨漏社子島？所以圖利兩個字實在不能拿出來當藉口跟理由。","還有交通，現在內政部在審的是我們再來想想看，是不是社子島要給個輕軌？院長，其實社子島的交通在整個社子島生態開發的計畫裡面都有啦！如果額外要做輕軌，那麼就是在政府區段徵收收回的那六成土地裡面就有預留了嘛！周遭社子島出來整個大社子的道路，其實市政府交通局跟新北市府都有共同研商過。所以，院長，是不是您能夠直接下令指揮他們趕快儘速審核通過，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好。在去年11月30日的時候，臺北市政府還有公文給我們內政部，現在內政部還在跟臺北市政府做再進一步的溝通，我會請內政部一定要加緊來辦理這件事情。社子島的居民值得我們大家跟他們一起努力，讓社子島儘早開發，我想對他們才是最好的幫忙。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝。還有我們臺北市現在面臨的，因為疫情的關係，現在臺北市正在推動的北環段、東環段、南環段的捷運遇到一個問題，就是這三年來工料都大幅上漲，因為疫情的關係嘛！工料大幅上漲的結果，計算下來，這三條線大概差額440億元，440億元對臺北市政府而言，說實在話，他們負擔不起，所以請院長是不是針對臺北市東環、南環、北環這三線的捷運能夠補足這440億元的差額？"],["陳院長建仁：有關於這三個環線的經費，因為物價上漲這個不可歸責的理由而上漲的部分，我們會按照中央跟地方應該要分攤的這個部分一起分攤，這個絕對沒有問題。但是如果是可以歸責於地方政府的部分……"],["王委員世堅：因為發包的延誤，對，當然，區分之後……"],["陳院長建仁：他們現在在送修正計畫。"],["王委員世堅：院長，我希望除了那個比例之外，是不是多補一點給臺北市好嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們……"],["王委員世堅：臺北市身為首都，它是各項全國在世界評比裡面的一個指標嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：對。"],["王委員世堅：更何況這二、三十年來大家很清楚，捷運的開發不但便捷了我們市民快速的通行，而且大幅度降低了交通的傷亡。尤其在臺北市，藉由捷運的開發又可以開拓新社區、新市鎮，來大幅度降低我們臺北市的高房價，好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：因為軌道的補助，我們有按照財政劃分的情況做，我們會按照這樣一個劃分的方法，中央應該要補的，我們一定是全力來補足。"],["王委員世堅：院長，前幾年，說實在話，在補足各縣市預算當中，臺北市確實分配到的比較少，當然這也因為當時柯文哲市長疏於跟中央溝通、爭取啦！"],["陳院長建仁：對啦！他只要有提出申請，我們就會認真來辦理，但是因為申請是地方政府要提出來，計畫要提出來。"],["王委員世堅：還有一點就是我們臺北市議會現在所面臨到的我們議會助理的聘用都維持在過去那3萬元的薪資，其實不只臺北市碰到，全國22縣市的縣市議會都碰到，這部分助理的薪資已經22年沒有調整了，院長，你知道22年來物價是如何的波動、生活費如何的上漲？所以3萬元這樣子的低薪實在話是有點不人道。所以這個部分是不是也請中央在法規條文上幫忙？在預算撥補上也能夠幫忙？"],["陳院長建仁：對，我們跟地方政府一起討論，因為付出這個錢的是地方政府，但是中央跟地方一起討論。其實這個案子不是只有臺北市議會而已，很多議會都在講。"],["王委員世堅：對，22縣市。"],["陳院長建仁：所有的縣市，我們會跟地方政府一起討論一個最好的方案，這已經講很久了。"],["王委員世堅：院長，還有一項，最近大家一直在討論ETF，光00940兩天就募集1,780億，過去0050至少奮鬥21年，現在才3,000億的規模，00940吸引游資、熱錢，兩天就1,780億。院長，我講的是一種現象，我認為政府要顧好這個名稱，不能讓這些財團濫用。像元大設的00940，去年還有中信的00934，群益的00937，我直接唸出名字，他們都直接在名字上加上大收益、高股息、高息動能，然後有一大堆名詞，什麼神級的高股息。我的意思是說，用這樣子的名字騙人。過去米粉不是米做的，政府就要它改叫炊粉，對小老百姓是這樣。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["王委員世堅：對這些自吹自擂的財團也應該有所約束，是不是？"],["陳院長建仁：我們會請金管會對ETF這個事情強化審查、落實平準金相關的揭露，還有廣告的部分……"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝院長。"],["陳院長建仁：這個我們會努力做。"],["王委員世堅：主席，是不是時間暫停？因為只剩11秒。","院長，這一次是你在本院最後一天備詢，其實我很肯定你這一整年的作為，因為你在行政院團隊沒有拉幫結派，沒有向特定的政治勢力低頭。最後這11秒鐘，我要送給陳院長一份離別的禮物，一本聖經外加4個字──珍重再見。"],["主席：謝謝王委員世堅的質詢，也謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來我們請登記第8位李委員彥秀質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":994.64346875,"end":996.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":997.32659375,"end":998.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":999.2165937500001,"end":999.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1016.54721875,"end":1017.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1018.2178437500002,"end":1018.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1018.97721875,"end":1019.6015937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":17.666,"end":35.837,"text":"主席我請院長以及衛福部薛部長麻煩請陳院長衛福部備詢王偉武安院長武安部長武安謝謝主席"},{"start":41.243,"end":60.028,"text":"我們國家的醫療品質跟收費我如果用四個字來形容叫做價廉物美那麼價廉物美的醫療其實是建立在長時間以來我們醫護人員他們的犧牲"},{"start":66.792,"end":90.523,"text":"比方說護理人員大家很清楚他們工作繁重工作環境有待改善而且他們的收入不高加上在疫情期間種種這個危險加急那一下子給一下子要回這些對他們我覺得造成某種程度上人格的污衊所以你看"},{"start":91.483,"end":104.731,"text":"最近這一兩年我們護理人員大量的流失那這一年多來我們也因為護理人員流失我們醫病比"},{"start":106.001,"end":108.903,"text":"我今天特別要提到的是在基層醫療診所的部分"},{"start":135.998,"end":136.038,"text":"王世堅"},{"start":151.921,"end":151.941,"text":"結果﹖"},{"start":176.667,"end":200.962,"text":"他們要負擔這麼多的高成本之下他們又沒有業外收入大型醫院很多可以業外收入啊有租金的收入、停車場收入其他這個美食街啊這個便利商店這些收入他們沒有嘛所以這樣的情況下我舉去年為例好了去年"},{"start":202.185,"end":224.94,"text":"基層醫療診所尤其我們臺北區我們臺北地區因為我們人口最稠密去年5、6月的時候COVID-19有一部分誤發的情況所以醫療的耗用增加那點子啊已經跌到0.9以下"},{"start":225.799,"end":248.082,"text":"那去年底又來一波流感那流感大家去的最多的當然直接就是去基層醫療診所這兩個因素之下臺北區的基層醫療點數甚至達到0.81啦所以院長部長我在這邊要求就是說是不是要撥補"},{"start":250.657,"end":251.938,"text":"那個部長院長你們看法呢?"},{"start":271.329,"end":288.598,"text":"有關於去年因為這個解封之後那把這個COVID-19相關的治療費用移到健保來所以會造成這個整個點子下降因為它的使用就增加了"},{"start":289.258,"end":311.718,"text":"那這一個部分的話我們已經有方案在做處理。那第一季跟第二季基層的部分的話其實已經有相當的一個補助。那第三季現在正在結算當中那也應該會跟第一季第二季同樣的方法去補助。你們兩位都是相關這一部分的專業人才,所以你們知道有這個情況。"},{"start":314.44,"end":338.601,"text":"所以一定要有醫療診所幫我們整體全國的醫療來降低整體我們小病看小醫院嘛大病看大醫院透過轉診這樣子我們醫療的支出才有辦法負荷所以去年的點子補到0.9是OK的那麼如果年年虧損失血的話我們失去了這些基層醫療診所"},{"start":339.702,"end":339.962,"text":"那現在把它進入健保﹖"},{"start":359.104,"end":359.424,"text":"﹚王世堅"},{"start":381.48,"end":395.726,"text":"不能夠單單從點子就來講說我們給醫院的照顧是不好,我們要看看他這個點子下降的理由,如果是COVID...我就是說總額給付當然基於很多原因,道德風險的評估這都應當。"},{"start":398.388,"end":414.325,"text":"但是當我們在醫療的這一部分我們健保收入的部分開源節流之外我認為如果差額開300億500億對我們整體一年國家的支出兩兆9000億而言那不是什麼大錢嗎所以我們應該來撥補來幫助"},{"start":417.688,"end":417.868,"text":"沒有問題,請。"},{"start":459.128,"end":469.45,"text":"我再來要跟您就教幾項問題希望你能夠積極的伸出援手第一點就是社址島的開發社址島現在的產狀社址島的島民們已經委屈了70年之久"},{"start":477.832,"end":501.466,"text":"這個地方如果大家有去看的話那根本像個鬼島沒有衛生設施連個基本的診所都沒有那也沒有衛生下水道那到處都是這個違章工廠林立實在說實在話我們公共建設在那邊近乎零的公共建設"},{"start":502.706,"end":528.471,"text":"現在社址島的開發已經經過多次各方專家研議的結果市政府也已經早就簽到我們行政院來在內政部審查現在用的叫做生態社址島開發這能夠最符合環保人士也符合全體市民大家共同可以來使用這個水岸的城鎮最好的方式"},{"start":529.431,"end":537.657,"text":"那現在唯一在反對97.5%的島民都支持,絕大多數的市民也都支持。"},{"start":538.855,"end":559.748,"text":"少數及少數社址島的居民2.5%的居民他們反對的原因他們竟然是說開發會圖利他們當地的居民我覺得這是非常離譜的如果這叫做圖利的話院長那我們所有公共建設都不要做啦"},{"start":560.949,"end":587.228,"text":"過去開闢馬路那都圖立兩旁的地主囉那如果所有的開發都叫圖立過去70年政府都在圖立民間不是這樣嗎那既然圖立了70年的所有民間為什麼獨落社址島所以圖立兩個字這實在不能拿出來當藉口跟理由還有交通現在內政部在審的是說我們再來想想看是不是社址島要給個輕軌那個"},{"start":591.473,"end":604.852,"text":"議員長,其實設施島的交通在整個設施島生態開發的計畫裡面都有啦。如果額外要做輕軌,那麼就是在政府區段徵收所謂的那六層土地裡面就有預留了嘛。"},{"start":605.373,"end":607.415,"text":"您能夠直接下令指揮他們趕快進促審核通過好不好?"},{"start":623.466,"end":645.325,"text":"在去年的11月30號的時候,臺北市政府還有公文給我們的這個內政部。那現在內政部還在跟臺北市政府做再進一步的溝通。那我會請內政部一定要加緊來辦理這件事情。社子島的居民值得我們大家跟他們一起努力,讓社子島盡早開發。我想對他們才是最好的幫忙。"},{"start":645.905,"end":660.697,"text":"好謝謝還有我們台北市現在面臨的因為疫情的關係現在台北市正在推動的北環段東環段南環段的捷運遇到一個問題就是這三年來啊供料都大幅上漲"},{"start":661.823,"end":684.777,"text":"疫情的關係嗎?那供料大幅上漲的結果計算下來這三條線大概差額440億元。那麼440億元對台北市政府而言說實在話他們負擔不起。所以請院長是不是針對台北市東環、南環、北環這三線的捷運能夠補足這440億元的差額?"},{"start":687.599,"end":709.441,"text":"這個有關於這三個環線的這個經費因為物價上漲這個不可規則的這個理由而上漲的這個部分我們會按照中央跟地方應該要分攤的這個部分來一起分攤這個絕對沒有問題但是如果是可以規則於地方政府的部分"},{"start":709.981,"end":723.7,"text":"我發發言務對當然當然區分之後那院長我希望除了那個比例以外是不是多補一點給臺北市好嗎臺北市身為首都他是各項"},{"start":724.548,"end":724.668,"text":"好不好?"},{"start":752.415,"end":769.138,"text":"議員長"},{"start":769.522,"end":784.222,"text":"前幾年說實在話在補足各縣市預算當中臺北市確實分配到的比較少當然這也因為當時柯文哲市長他也疏於跟中央溝通爭取"},{"start":785.027,"end":810.343,"text":"只要有提出申請,我們就會認真來辦理。但是因為這個行政是地方政府要提出來,要計為它要提出來。還有一點就是我們臺北市議會現在所面臨到的,就是我們議會助理這個聘用都維持在過去那3萬元的薪資。那其實不只臺北市碰到,全國22縣市的縣市議會都碰到。"},{"start":812.925,"end":816.587,"text":"所以這個部分是不是也請中央在法規條文上也幫忙在預算撥補上也能夠幫忙"},{"start":836.857,"end":856.437,"text":"我們跟地方政府一起來討論,因為這錢要付出去是地方政府嘛齁。但是我們中央跟地方一起來討論,其實這個案子齁,很多議員,不是只有台北市議員而已。所以說,所有的縣市我們會跟大家地方政府一起來討論,一個最好的方案。這已經有講很久了。"},{"start":859.038,"end":865.001,"text":"議長還有幾項就是最近最近大家一直在炒熱這個ETF光這個00940兩天就1700億院長過去0050他們至少奮鬥21年現在才3000億的規模"},{"start":879.206,"end":899.257,"text":"這個00940啊吸引油脂熱錢兩天就1780億院長我在講的是一種這個現象我認為這個名稱我們政府要看顧好不能讓這些財團像元大設的這00940像先前去年還有中信00934群立00937所有他們這一些"},{"start":904.38,"end":930.505,"text":"這個都用所謂的我念他的名字直接在名字上面叫做大收益高股息高息動能然後一大堆名詞什麼神級的高股息我一直都用這樣子的名字來騙人過去政府米粉不是米做的就要他叫炊粉對小老百姓是這樣"},{"start":931.567,"end":951.076,"text":"那結果對這些自吹自擂的這個部分應該有所約束我們會請金管會來對於ETF的這一個事情做好強化他的那個審查的部分還有落實這一個評準金的這一個相關的揭露的部分還有廣告的部分這個我們會努力來做主席是不是時間暫停因為只剩11秒那個那個"},{"start":961.806,"end":985.46,"text":"院長這次是你在我們大院最後一天的備詢那其實我對你這一整年來的作為我很肯定就是說你在行政院的團隊你沒有拉幫結派沒有向特定的政治勢力低頭所以院長我在最後這11秒鐘我要送給"},{"start":988.855,"end":998.156,"text":"陳院長一份離別的禮物一本聖經一本聖經那外加四個字珍重再見"},{"start":1018.848,"end":1019.394,"text":"謝謝。"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}