{"error":false,"id":["150417"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150417,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150417","日期":"2024-03-26","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"院會-11-1-6","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":6,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"院會","標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-26T11:38:05+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-26T11:53:41+08:00","影片長度":"00:15:36","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/f45bf982c29023ee9780b1921df90a558ac1d636ef3e2fe8f8ba9b0039caa7a621a471a2d4db75405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:38:05 - 11:53:41","會議時間":"2024-03-26T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"第11屆第1會期第6次會議（事由：一、對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢。\n二、3月22日上午9時至10時為國是論壇時間。\n三、3月26日下午1時50分至2時30分為處理臨時提案時間。）","gazette":{"lineno":577,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時38分）謝謝韓院長，我可不可以請陳院長？"],["主席：麻煩再請陳院長備詢。"],["陳院長建仁：李委員午安。"],["李委員彥秀：院長午安，我剛剛看到王委員送你「珍重再見」四個字，我要確認一下，這一屆立委任內，這是我最後一次質詢您嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員彥秀：520之後不會由您在同樣的位置，跟我一起做答詢的動作嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：我對於學術研究一向相當醉心，我也覺得離開學術界有一段時間，所以我還是回去做我的學術研究，對人類更有貢獻也說不定。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝院長。未來我也希望祝福你，我們到不同的單位，但是我相信凡走過必留下痕跡，所有做過的事情，說過的話，人民都在看。"],["陳院長建仁：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我們就留給歷史評價。"],["陳院長建仁：好。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝院長。上個星期五在院會的時候，你提到因為這一次電價上漲的關係，所以有其他委員提到，臺北市的捷運是不是有可以不要漲的空間？你上個星期特別提到，因為捷運的費用是地方政府決定，特別是在北北基都有TPASS，所以要漲價沒有正當性。我關注你上個星期五在院會回答的內容，我沒有說錯，對不對？"],["陳院長建仁：對，最主要的……"],["李委員彥秀：捷運的費率要不要調整是地方政府決定，TPASS我們有補助過，要漲價沒有正當性，這個是你講的嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：對，我說這個正當性的理由是因為這一次的電價調整，讓北捷的經營提高了1%的成本。"],["李委員彥秀：好，到底調整多少percent，我想地方政府到時候會有一個數字，因為今年……"],["陳院長建仁：台電也有……"],["李委員彥秀：4月1日要漲，以臺北市來說，它要負擔13%的電價，整個臺北市營運，事實上整個臺北市捷運是虧損的狀態，28年沒有漲過任何的票價，虧損已達15億元。今天早上我也特別關注到盧秀燕市長也提到，大眾運輸工具的電價可不可以不要調，而且我相信所有有捷運的地方，首長都希望在這一波電價不要調。但是我也關注到昨天在交通委員會，王國材部長也提到，馬上4月1日之後客運就要調漲，不僅如此，下半年可能臺鐵跟高鐵都要漲，院長……"],["陳院長建仁：客運要漲跟那個電費沒有關係，因為臺灣大部分客運都是用燃油。"],["李委員彥秀：我不知道基於什麼原因，但是在民眾的感受上，我提到在民眾感受上，現在百工百業要漲的，都說人事成本在漲，電價也在漲，反正所有的都在漲，可能4月1日我們面臨的狀況是這樣，但是昨天王國材在委員會裡面回答的是，客運要漲，下半年臺鐵跟高鐵也要漲，那我就在想，那就是兩套標準啊！"],["陳院長建仁：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：地方的捷運我們認為不能漲，但是我們的雙鐵卻要漲，院長，我要提醒的就是大眾運輸工具是綠色運輸，我們都鼓勵民眾多搭，但是如果中央不能跟地方共體時艱，人民對於這個通膨的感受會非常、非常深刻。不是每個人都有錢去玩股票，今天股票又在漲，股票漲到2萬點，跟大多數臺灣人沒有太多的關係。但這個漲幅未來對人民特別是領死薪水的民眾來說，是很痛苦的，因為買什麼都在漲。所以，院長，我們能不能有機會共體時艱，大眾運輸工具包括雙鐵不要漲，至少兩年不要漲？"],["陳院長建仁：委員，我想臺鐵之所以要漲價，跟電費的增加一點都沒有關係，最主要的是臺鐵最近變成了公司，公司化，然後臺鐵是28年來為了要配合……"],["李委員彥秀：那高鐵呢？"],["陳院長建仁：高鐵是一個……我想高鐵會不會漲價，我不曉得王部長給你的理由是什麼，但是就我所知，臺鐵……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我只要提醒你，民眾看到的是結果，不管你說的理由是什麼。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：但是在民眾感受上，他就會是因為電價漲的原因，所以……"],["陳院長建仁：那我們現在在這裡講不是這個原因……"],["李委員彥秀：雖然我們鼓勵民眾多搭乘大眾運輸工具，但是我覺得在百工百業都醞釀要漲價的狀況之下，我覺得要去思考，我覺得你應該跟院裡說，到520之前您都是院長，我覺得這一波是不是要漲，要思考清楚，如果連政府在高鐵、臺鐵都帶動漲的話，你更不要去講，王美花說我們要去看有沒有誰隨便亂漲，那個都是說假的。"],["陳院長建仁：我可以答應你一件事情，就是TPASS的部分一定不會漲，那TPASS在臺灣有3億次的使用，然後它是大部分通勤、通學甚至觀光旅客……"],["李委員彥秀：但是院長，我要提醒電價一漲，所有的成本都在漲，所以捷運的電價也要漲。"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，TPASS不漲。"],["李委員彥秀：成本增加嘛。"],["陳院長建仁：TPASS有350萬人使用喔。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我要跟你提的，捷運的成本也增加嘛，我不知道臺鐵跟高鐵，當然它的用電量也會增加，所以我才提醒你，……"],["陳院長建仁：所以TPASS不漲啊。"],["李委員彥秀：你要不要保證，去跟王國材部長溝通，就是我們的雙鐵不要在這一波帶動漲？"],["陳院長建仁：TPASS本來就包括了臺鐵的運輸啊，對不對？您知道嘛，也包括了捷運，所以我們TPASS不漲，TPASS不會漲。"],["李委員彥秀：但是其他的……"],["陳院長建仁：TPASS就cover了……"],["李委員彥秀：那就乾脆都不要漲。"],["陳院長建仁：絕大部分……"],["李委員彥秀：都不要漲。院長，因為我時間有限，我還是提醒，王國材說下半年會討論漲幅，而且那個漲幅的金額都已經在媒體上看到了，你不要跟我講只有TPASS不漲，你要是不漲的話，就乾脆全部都不要漲，這個我提醒院長要注意。","院長，第二件事情，你知道電價費率審議會一年開幾次嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：電價？"],["李委員彥秀：電價審議委員會。"],["陳院長建仁：兩次。"],["李委員彥秀：兩次嘛！"],["陳院長建仁：兩次，對，3月和9月。"],["李委員彥秀：3月和9月。那你知道今年年底台電的虧損數字大概達到多少嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：要看看政府有沒有撥補，如果政府有撥補1,000億的時候，那它的虧損就可以減少。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有，不管有沒有撥補，就是它本身的虧損，你知道數字嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：到目前為止它的虧損的話……"],["李委員彥秀：到年底。"],["陳院長建仁：差不多到五千多億。"],["李委員彥秀：五千多億。我今天也關注到，在媒體上你說這次電價沒有漲到足，9月份還有一次電價審議委員會，還會再漲嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：不會。"],["李委員彥秀：確定嗎？"],["陳院長建仁：但這是我個人的看法。在臺灣電價的調整，3月、9月就是要開電價審議委員會，那我們電價審議委員會還是要開，但是會不會漲，這個就是電價審議委員會來看。但是我個人的估算，因為去年還有前年，我們每年都只漲一次。"],["李委員彥秀：院長也知道這一次漲了很多，百工百業，那個物價通膨的體感、人民的感受度是很痛的。"],["陳院長建仁：跟去年一樣，大概11%。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有可能3年不漲？"],["陳院長建仁：這個我沒有辦法幫電價審議委員會作答。"],["李委員彥秀：兩年還是一年不漲？"],["陳院長建仁：不，這個不符合機制，這個機制就是由電價審議會決定電價。"],["李委員彥秀：我的感受，這幾天民眾所感受到的，百工百業好像都要漲，昨天從媒體上看到臭豆腐……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：臭豆腐一盤也要漲到100塊啦！所以我覺得是這樣，王美花昨天講要去看看有沒有誰隨便亂漲，這個機制他能夠有多少的掌控度，其實我有很多問號。但是我們手邊有很多工具，包括物價稽查小組，我覺得要立刻啟動……"],["陳院長建仁：有，本來我們就有在開。"],["李委員彥秀：這個我覺得也需要關注，但是昨天有人講，所有的成本都在漲，叫我不要漲，叫我關門嗎？我覺得漲幅的幅度這一次是非常大，人民感受是非常深的。我想後續勞工是生活得非常辛苦，在過去8年蔡英文執政任內貧富差距越來越大，我們7年的……"],["陳院長建仁：吉尼指數不是這樣的。"],["李委員彥秀：總薪資是倒退的。經濟成長率好，但是大家看到的數字……"],["陳院長建仁：沒有，我說吉尼指數……"],["李委員彥秀：人民感受上是不一樣的。"],["陳院長建仁：你說貧富差距，我們的貧富差距不是你想的這樣。我們看吉尼指數，你知道吉尼指數嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你520卸任之後，有機會多到基層走一走，你就知道……"],["陳院長建仁：有，我很多……基層走走。"],["李委員彥秀：領死薪水的感受度是怎麼樣！上一次你問柯志恩說上兩萬點，高不高興？那一天我問主計長，他說：身為國家大掌櫃，我很高興稅收多，但是我不高興，因為我沒玩股票。院長，我要提醒你，臺灣大多數的人其實都沒有玩股票，股票四成是外資，台積電有七成是外資，所以股票上兩萬多點，大多數臺灣民眾沒有玩股票，他是沒有感受的，因為臺灣很多人都還是領那一份死薪水，如何讓經濟整個產業結構好轉才是正道。我還是要回過頭問今天……"],["陳院長建仁：我講一下物價的部分，好不好？物價部分，電費影響的部分不多，大部分主要是，我們現在物價影響比較大的像是燃油、燃氣、燃煤……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我知道你要講什麼，國際燃料的物價……"],["陳院長建仁：還有國際貨物，對……"],["李委員彥秀：其實已經調整回來。但是今天我就是要提醒院長，520之後拜託你到基層走一走，你就會看到百工百業都在漲，他也是不得不漲的狀態，但是人民卻過得非常辛苦……"],["陳院長建仁：那是因為大宗貨物也在漲。"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，520之後你有更多時間，你去貼近人民，就知道我們在講的是什麼。"],["陳院長建仁：我一向很貼近人民。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。我接下來還是要問你，因為你過去擔任過衛生署署長，所以你一定知道醫院的困境是什麼？在這一次漲幅當中，過去3年電價平均漲幅從111年是8.4%，到11%及今年的11%，3年加總的漲幅是三成左右。醫療院所實際電價漲幅，111年是15%、112年是17%、113年14%，3年加總起來達到46%，所以它不可能是王美花所講的：有一些產業如果減少用電，我們可以調幅減半。你非常清楚，醫療院所不太可能來省電，因為所有醫療器材、冷氣、感染間的溫濕度控管都必須是長時間運作，這點我想你非常清楚。所以這一塊我最近就聽到，包括這次國發會核定的醫療服務成本總額也規定這次的漲幅只能有3.075%。如果電價再漲，在總額負擔裡面有辦法承受這些電價嗎？這是我要提的第一個問題。你瞭解，因為成本就是這麼多，它總額就只能成長3%左右，裡面又含了人事費用，又含了醫材、藥品的費用，電價也包含在裡面，所以我實在不認為醫療院所能夠承擔那麼多的電價調整幅度。這是我的第一個問題。"],["陳院長建仁：對於你的第一個問題，46%是對的，但是有一個很重要的重點，就是電費占它營運成本的百分之多少？我跟委員報告，在醫學中心、這些大型醫院是占它營運成本的0.5%到1%，在地區醫院、這些小型醫院是占2%到3%，所以你看看，46%乘上0.5%到1%，它增加的幅度是多少？所以要看它在營運成本的占比啦！這個很重要。"],["李委員彥秀：院長，我要提的就是說，整個電價漲，藥品可能也會漲，醫療成本也在漲，因為現在人事費用我們也希望調整，它就是一個……"],["陳院長建仁：你是要把所有的東西都納進來講醫療院所的成本，那當然可以啊！包括……"],["李委員彥秀：所以院長，我才提醒你……"],["陳院長建仁：但是不是電費，不是電費，我只是要……"],["李委員彥秀：我善意地提醒，電價在漲，因為所有的醫療成本其實都包含這些東西，包括藥品……"],["陳院長建仁：但是它占0.5%啊！占它營運成本的0.5%啊！"],["李委員彥秀：但是院長，我要提醒你，裡面含電價、藥品、醫療人事費用、醫材，這些都包含在裡面，我們這次核定的醫療服務成本只有讓它漲3.075%，所以院長，我要提醒，因為我剩下的時間不多。我知道上個星期醫療團體也上來跟行政院和衛福部陳情，現在衛福部或院長的態度到底是什麼？"],["陳院長建仁：我的態度就是……"],["李委員彥秀：對於醫療院所的電價漲幅要用什麼機制去處理？"],["陳院長建仁：我們來瞭解電價占它整個營運成本的百分比是多少，然後來看它……"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有可能補貼？"],["陳院長建仁：那就要看它的占比多不多，就好像剛才講的北捷，如果它只占營運成本的1%，那……"],["李委員彥秀：院長，你能不能好好地去研議補貼？因為我不希望電價漲幅吃掉其他人事費用或是藥品費用，導致藥價黑洞越來越大。"],["陳院長建仁：電價漲幅影響很小，它只占0.5%到1%，我剛才已經講了，占比很低嘛！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，基層醫療院所……"],["陳院長建仁：占比很低！"],["李委員彥秀：院長，基層醫療院所我想部長非常清楚，好好地去做一些評估啦！好不好？"],["陳院長建仁：好，我們來評估。"],["主席：謝謝李委員彥秀質詢，謝謝陳院長的備詢。","接下來請登記第9位謝委員龍介質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":219,"meet_id":"院會-11-1-6","speakers":["韓國瑜","吳宗憲","廖偉翔","陳昭姿","林憶君","賴士葆","劉建國","吳春城","王世堅","李彥秀","謝龍介","黃捷","游顥","蘇清泉","李坤城","蘇巧慧","王正旭","邱議瑩","洪申翰","鄭正鈐","涂權吉","徐巧芯"],"page_start":133,"meetingDate":["2024-03-26"],"gazette_id":"1131401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1131401_00004","1131401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期第6次會議紀錄","content":"施政質詢\n對行政院院長提出施政方針及施政報告繼續質詢─ 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個很重要的重點就是電費是佔它營運成本的百分之多少那我跟委員報告在醫學中心這些大型醫院佔它營運成本的0.5到1%那在地區醫院這小型醫院是佔2到3%所以你看看46%乘上0.5到1%它增加的幅度是多少"},{"start":823.914,"end":849.329,"text":"院長,我要提的就是說,整個電價漲,藥品可能也會漲,醫療成本也在漲,因為我們現在人事費用,我們也希望調整,但是他就是一個大賊。你是要把所有的東西都要講進來,講醫療院所的這個成本,那當然可以啊。所以院長我才提醒你啊,我善意的提醒啊,電價在漲,因為他就是,因為"},{"start":850.029,"end":850.25,"text":"但是他賺0.5%呢?"},{"start":859.188,"end":882.581,"text":"但是院長我要提醒裡面含電價、藥品、醫療人士費用、醫材都包含在裡面。我們這一次我們核定醫療服務成本我們只有讓他漲3年075%所以院長我要提醒因為我時間剩下的不多我們現在因為上個星期我知道醫療團體也上來跟行政院來陳情跟衛福部陳情那現在我們問衛福部或院長你的態度到底是什麼?"},{"start":884.423,"end":888.307,"text":"對於電價的漲幅我們用什麼樣的機制去處理?對於醫療院所?有沒有可能補貼?"},{"start":903.203,"end":903.583,"text":"謝謝李委員、彥秀質詢。謝謝陳院長的備詢。"},{"start":932.813,"end":935.14,"text":"接下來我們請登記第九位"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}