{"error":false,"id":["150432"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150432,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150432","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T09:13:14+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T09:25:24+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:10","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d594f3088a85097a0d6e9ac27f41e17f3cf8ba9b0039caa7a69b6e307be05129615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:13:14 - 09:25:24","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長及行政院相關機關（含事業單位）列席就「政府機關推動人事服務數位轉型」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。\n【其中7案如經院會復議，則不予審查、處理】）","gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時13分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請人事長。"],["主席：請人事長。"],["黃委員國昌：人事長早。在今天的解凍報告當中，去年有立委提案凍結你們的預算，是有關於軍公教調薪的機制，希望待遇審議委員會裡面必須要有基層員工的代表，當初在凍結的時候講得很具體，請你們提出改革的規劃及改革的期程，重點是改革的規劃及改革的期程。但是我拜讀完你們整份提供給本委員會的書面報告，我們直接講結論，你們的結論是不是認為沒有改革的必要？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：報告委員，我們事實上內部已經提了兩個方向的評估，一定會在上次會議……"],["黃委員國昌：我先提一下，我們就事論事，先從解凍報告來講，在解凍報告上面要提基層員工代表，你們的結論我看到的是維持現行規定辦理就好，所以我才問你你們今天報告的結論是不是沒有改革的必要？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：絕對不是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果不是的話，你今天這個報告顯然有內容不齊全的問題，因為你們改革規劃的期程及內容在凍結案所要求的內容，我在這份書面報告裡面完全沒有看到，還是我哪裡有該看到而沒有看到的嗎？改革的期程及內容在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告，這個資料是在1月18日提的解凍，3月份我們在質詢的時候有答應今年一定會提出來。現在我跟委員補充報告一下……"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，今天委員會排程，你的解凍報告如果是1月寫的，到今天為止如果有內容不齊全的，你是不是應該要補？你是不是應該要補？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我承認是要按照委員的意見，不過我也必須跟委員報告一點，因為現在是要由制度化變法制化的過程，我們內部在研議到底是要……"],["黃委員國昌：還要研議多久？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：今年一定會把法制化這件事情完成。"],["黃委員國昌：我今天為什麼請教人事長還要研議多久？從今天整個要解凍的書面報告該寫的東西沒有寫，剛剛我已經講得很清楚，人事長，你也同意了，但我們來看一下，針對教師工會他們所提出的訴求，你們說你們未來會朝向法制化規劃進行，我的理解沒有錯嘛？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：好，但為什麼這些基層的公務人員對於政府的承諾沒有信心？因為這句話從2016年講到現在2024年，8年了！8年了！如果今天是第一次講，沒有履行承諾，大家會覺得有期待、有想像、有信心；但8年過去，原地踏步。為什麼大家會對於人總今天提出未來會朝向這個方向、會深入地研議、繼續地研議、不斷地研議這件事情沒有信心？我想我代表很多基層員工的心聲反映給人總知道。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員國昌：而且他們所提的不是沒有依據喔！從2016年在立法院做出的報告，到立法院法制局從2017年的報告，說從法律保留的原則，最好是要有法律來規範調薪機制，到2021年又再做報告。連監察院都看不下去，監察院說拖太久了，「拖延過久，有欠積極」這8個字，這不是我說的，是監察院說的。大家都在等，等了8年了，原地踏步，我相信人事長應該可以體會大家的心情。這個事情我已經不知道該怎麼說了，8年過去了，原地踏步，大家沒有辦法接受，我相信將心比心，您應該可以理解。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個重點就是，目前我們公務人員的考績制度，我自己長期的觀察，有兩個最大的問題，一個是勞逸不均，一個是考績失靈。人事長，你看一下我PPT上面做的新聞，從我們基層的公務員到中央的公務員，有過勞的、猝死的、腦溢血的，這些例子非常地多，但是從一般民眾的角度上面來講，為什麼有一些公務員在他們的工作職位上會操到連寶貴的生命都消失，另外一些公務員，可能大家在看他們工作上面的負擔，相對而言就很輕鬆？所以勞逸不均的問題非常嚴重。","第二個嚴重的問題是什麼？考績的失靈。人事長，你知不知道上次考績法修正是什麼時候？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現行的考績法嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：是，當然啊！不是廢止的，也不是未來的，是現行的考績法沒有錯。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：106年有檢討過。"],["黃委員國昌：檢討過以後呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：今年……"],["黃委員國昌：我直接跟您說……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：今年銓敘部有再提出來。"],["黃委員國昌：上次修考績法的時候是2007年……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：就是106。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，106年是2017年。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：96。"],["黃委員國昌：上次修正是2007年，我為什麼會關注這樣的問題？雖然法律沒有明確的規定，但是現在考績評甲等比例的上限，考試院告訴我是人總定的，沒有錯吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是。"],["黃委員國昌：是考試院自己定的？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：沒有，五院秘書長。"],["黃委員國昌：是府院秘書長？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：五院。"],["黃委員國昌：五院的秘書長共同定考甲等的比例上限？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：大家協商。"],["黃委員國昌：大家協商甲等上限的法律授權基礎在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，它是base on考績法，然後大家協商，沒有在考績法裡面明確寫……"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是我的問題，現在您告訴全體國人，考績法甲等的比例是由五院秘書長大家協商來定。我現在的問題就來了，五院秘書長決定攸關公務人員這麼重大的權利事項，結果竟然沒有法律授權的依據，這件事情你不覺得在當代的法治國家很離譜嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，在我們的瞭解，每一國家都沒有一個法定比例，只是大家協商出……"],["黃委員國昌：非常好，沒有一個固定的法定比例。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：結果大家用協商的方式決定攸關公務人員重大權利的事項。我剛剛請教你的問題是，你認為在現代的法治國家，這樣子做是合時宜的嗎？這是我的問題。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我想跟委員報告，這個是一個管理工具，事實上，我們跟銓敘部也在今年……"],["黃委員國昌：我再提一下……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：他們提出考績法修正。"],["黃委員國昌：公務人員在他們從事公務的過程當中，每年最在意的是什麼？他們工作的表現要反映在哪裡？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：考績。"],["黃委員國昌：在考績。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：考績會不會影響他們每一年年終領的數額？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還有他的升遷都會影響。"],["黃委員國昌：對，這麼重大的事情，恐怕不是用考績是一個管理工具一句話就帶過。您是人事長，全國的公務人員都在看著您，這只是一個管理的工具嗎？考績的結果沒有關涉到公務人員重要的權利義務嗎？顯然是有。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，當然。"],["黃委員國昌：您還是認為這只是個管理的工具，沒有法律授權依據，讓五院秘書長這樣幹沒有問題嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，這幾年運作下來，我們當然有配合COVID，整個考績甲等的比例有再往上調升……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在問你A，你又移到B了，COVID的部分，你們還是五院秘書長去協調嘛！現在核心的關鍵是在法治國家，這樣子做是適宜的嗎？沒關係，我的問題點出來了，恐怕你站在你的位置上也很難回答。","但有另外一個奇怪的現象，我從以前觀察到現在，為什麼官等越高甲等的比例越高？簡任、薦任、委任，我從中央公務人員……請人事長看一下，如果是簡任，沒有被考甲的，就是甲以下的不到5%，薦任的升到17.49%，到委任的25.25%；我再往下，地方公務員一模一樣，簡任沒有考到甲的2.24%，結果到委任的時候是26.76%。為什麼我們的考績制度運作出來的結果，官越大考績越好？這是我的問題。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我要跟委員報告，基本上，中央機關的運作上，有些新的任務交下來，我們會從上面assign下去……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的理論是說，因為簡任的人接比較多新的任務，所以他們甲等的比例比較高，您的意思是這樣嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：基本上，他的loading相對會比較高，可是它是相對的，不是絕對的概念，它是相對、絕對的概念，然後薦任的部分當然有時候──每一個不同的level，他的loading、工作的出力包含你的勞力是不一樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：時間到了，我最後只有一個請求，一般的民眾看到這樣的結果，很多公務員看到這樣的結果，心裡面會打一個問號，是不是官等越高甲等的比例就越高？在評定考績的時候，怎麼樣做到除了公平性以外，可以發揮考績制度的功能？這一件事情是很重要的。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：這一件事情真的是很重要，如果這樣子的現象持續下去的話，會讓很多基層的公務員心寒。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃總召，也謝謝蘇人事長。","接下來有請沈委員發惠質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","謝龍介","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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6年是2017年啊"},{"start":408.391,"end":424.319,"text":"上次說的是2007年那我為什麼會關注這樣子的一個問題是雖然法律沒有明確的規定但是現在考機評價等比例的上限考試院告訴我說是人種定的沒有錯吧"},{"start":425.489,"end":442.627,"text":"不是不是是考試院自己定的沒有沒有五院秘書長五院秘書長是府院秘書長五院五院的秘書長他們共同定考甲等的比例上限就是大家協商那大家協商考甲等上限的法律授權基礎在哪裡"},{"start":444.574,"end":459.754,"text":"事實上他是被送考計法然後大家去協商一個沒有在考計法裡面明確寫這個就是我的問題嘛吼現在您告訴全體國人我們考計法假等的比例啊是由五院秘書長大家協商來定嗎"},{"start":462.338,"end":462.718,"text":"所以...欸..."},{"start":481.71,"end":506.605,"text":"事實上齁在我們的了解是每一個國家都沒有一個法定比例只是說大家去協商出一個非常好齁沒有一個固定的法定比例嘛是結果大家用協商的方式來決定攸關於公務人員重大權利的事項我剛請教你的問題是說你認為在現代的法治國家這樣子做是合時宜的嗎這是我的問題"},{"start":511.085,"end":536.95,"text":"我想要跟委員報告這個是一個管理工具的部分這是一個管理工具的部分那事實上我們跟前序部也在今年我再提一下公務人員在他們從事公務的過程當中其實他們每年最在意的是什麼他們工作的表現要反映在哪裡考積在考積嘛那考積會不會影響到他們每一年年終領的數額"},{"start":538.69,"end":553.869,"text":"還有他的身兼都對嗎你這麼重大的事情恐怕不是說考機是一個管理的工具一句話就帶過囉民事人市長全國的公務人員都在看著你呢這只是一個管理的工具嗎"},{"start":555.051,"end":568.804,"text":"考機的結果沒有關射到公務人員重要的權利義務嗎?顯然是有嗎?那你還是認為說這只是個管理的工具沒有法律授權的依據五月秘書長這樣幹沒有問題嗎?"},{"start":571.676,"end":592.873,"text":"事實上這幾年運作下來我們當然有配合整個COVID我們整個烤雞的甲等比例有在往上調升我現在跟你在問A你又移到B了嘛COVID的部分你們還是五位秘書長去喬嘛我現在核心的關鍵是說在法治國家這樣子做是適宜的嗎"},{"start":593.573,"end":615.771,"text":"沒關係我問題點出來了啦恐怕你今天站在你的位置上也很難回答但有另外一個奇怪的現象就是我從以前觀察到現在為什麼關等越高的加等的比例越高檢認、建認、委任我從中央公務人員來請人事長看一下如果是檢認的"},{"start":617.469,"end":644.76,"text":"沒有被考假的就假以下的不到5%到現任的升到17.49%到委任的25.25%我再往下地方公務員一模一樣檢認沒有考到假的2.24%結果到委任的時候26.76%為什麼我們的考機制度運作出來的結果是關越大考機越好這是我的問題"},{"start":647,"end":667.137,"text":"不過我這裡要跟委員報告基本上我們在中央機關的運作上面有些新的任務交下來基本上我們會從上面篩下去所以你的理論是說因為檢任他們接比較多新的任務所以他們夾點的比例比較高您的意思是這樣嗎?"},{"start":668.083,"end":690.339,"text":"它基本上它的loading會相對會比較高可是它是一個相對不是一個絕對的概念它是一個相對絕對的概念然後鑑認的話這個部分當然就是你有時候每一個不同Level它的Loading的工作的出力出力包含你的勞力還有勞力的部分事實上是不一樣的啦"},{"start":691.395,"end":716.468,"text":"時間到了齁我最後只有一個請求一般的民眾看到這樣的結果很多公務員看到這樣的結果心裡面會打一個問號是不是關等越高假等就越高是不是關等越高假等就越高在進行考積的時候怎麼樣做到除了公平性以外可以發揮考積制度的功能這件事情是很重要的"},{"start":717.849,"end":725.863,"text":"這件事情真的是很重要如果這樣子的現象持續下去的話會讓很多基層的公務員心寒好 謝謝謝謝黃總召也謝謝蘇委員長謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}