{"error":false,"id":["150438"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150438,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150438","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-36-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[36],"委員會代碼:str":["司法及法制委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T09:25:32+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T09:38:23+08:00","影片長度":"00:12:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d56906fe9b33f5bfb16e9ac27f41e17f3cf8ba9b0039caa7a645aab92cddae9f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:25:32 - 09:38:23","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院人事行政總處人事長及行政院相關機關（含事業單位）列席就「政府機關推動人事服務數位轉型」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查及處理113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院人事行政總處及所屬主管預算凍結項目共8案。\n【其中7案如經院會復議，則不予審查、處理】）","gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時25分）主席，我們先請蘇人事長。"],["主席：有請蘇人事長。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：委員早。"],["沈委員發惠：人事長早。今天本委員會特別安排，針對行政機關推動人事服務數位轉型做專題報告，我也很仔細地看了你們專題報告的書面內容，裡面有一個點引起我特別的關注跟興趣。你在書面報告的第2頁裡面有提到，目前各機關日常人力資源管理作業資訊化，有建置網際網路版的人力資源管理資訊系統（WebHR），大概是human resource的意思。我去瞭解你們這個系統目前的運用情形，發現你們這個系統不只是你所提有關公務人員個資、考績、銓敘、任免、獎章、獎懲。除了這個以外，中央行政機關每兩年一次的員額評鑑，我看也是填寫在WebHR上面做書面審查，是不是這樣？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，這一點我利用這個機會跟委員說明一下，兩年一次的員額評鑑，我們不希望大家花費太多時間填，所以很多東西填完以後，直接在資料庫裡面可以馬上進一步分析。"],["沈委員發惠：好，現在針對中央行政機關員額評鑑這件事情，我有一些不瞭解的地方，所以要就教人事長。第一個，目前中央行政機關員額評鑑的法規依據是什麼？是中央政府機關總員額法，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["沈委員發惠：總員額法第八條第三項有提到，一級機關每兩年應該評鑑所屬二級機關員額總數的合理性，對不對？應該就是這一條。目前每兩年進行一次，我知道好像今年要再進行一次，對不對？到3月底之前，他們必須在WebHR上面填表完成，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，3月底以前。"],["沈委員發惠：我想請教人事長，現在填完表之後如何進行整個評鑑程序，簡單講一下，好嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們會有一些固定的欄位給他填。"],["沈委員發惠：沒有，填完之後進行書面審查，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會進行書審。"],["沈委員發惠：書面審查完以後會召開一些綜合座談，對不對？有一些機關你們要實地訪查。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：會挑一些實地訪……"],["沈委員發惠：好，行政院自己有113年度辦理所屬二級主管機關員額評鑑計畫，你們的評鑑計畫裡面有提到，為瞭解當前政府重要政策業務區塊、人力運用，納入部分所屬三級、四級機關辦理實地訪視，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：上一次的評鑑有哪幾個三級機關、四級機關，我們做了實地訪視？這一次還沒決定，今年還沒有開始。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：上一次都是以二級機關為主，這一次……"],["沈委員發惠：上一次的三級機關、四級機關是0就對了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對。"],["沈委員發惠：上一次是0。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這一次特別加入三級。"],["沈委員發惠：這一次特別加入？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：這是有法規依據的，我知道你們訪視三級機關、四級機關是有法規依據的，對不對？有沒有？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我們之前有一些個案，我們進行這些個案，剛好利用這個機會跟委員說明一下，像原來的林務局改成林業及管理署，或者水利署……"],["沈委員發惠：你們今年預計要做的三級機關、四級機關訪視有哪一些？"],["張處長翠娟：跟委員報告，我們選定了6個機關，有4個部會，有法務部矯正署所屬，還有海委會，還有法務部矯正新設的部分，還有海委會、移民署，移民署這一塊，我們也會有做部分訪視。"],["沈委員發惠：你請他們去整理那6個機關，等一下唸給我聽，光你這樣唸的時間就不知道多久了。好，我要瞭解實地訪視目前以三級機關、四級機關為主，上一次應該是111年度了，二級機關有沒有去做實地訪視？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：二級機關也有。"],["沈委員發惠：111年度有哪幾個機關進行了實地訪視？"],["張處長翠娟：那時候剛好遇到COVID，所以是用書面的。"],["沈委員發惠：所以111年度二級機關沒有進行實地訪視？"],["張處長翠娟：我們都做書審。"],["沈委員發惠：所以人事長講的，讓我以為我的資料錯了，我記得應該是沒有，111年度……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對不起，剛好是COVID的時候，所以二級、三級、四級都沒有。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：全部都書審。"],["沈委員發惠：這一次有沒有要針對二級機關進行實地訪視？113年度有沒有計畫？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這次實地訪視的就是剛才委員質詢的……"],["沈委員發惠：就是三級、四級機關而已嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：三級機關就是移民署、領務局、臺北地檢署、法務部矯正署臺北監獄、桃園監獄跟海委會海保署這6個機關。"],["沈委員發惠：現在已經沒有COVID了，但對於二級機關你們這次沒有計畫要進行實地訪視嗎？"],["張處長翠娟：還是書面的審查。"],["沈委員發惠：我知道書面審查一定要的，他們自己要填，我是問今年113年度你們沒有計畫要對二級機關進行實地訪視？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：二級機關只做書面審查。"],["沈委員發惠：為什麼？現在已經沒有COVID了。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：主要的考量是二級機關因為是兩年一次的，都是兩年一次的員額評鑑……"],["沈委員發惠：依法都是兩年一次啊！"],["蘇人事長俊榮：對，兩年一次。"],["沈委員發惠：所以這不是理由啊！為什麼今年度不進行二級機關的實地訪察呢？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：事實上，整個實地訪察坦白講需要比較多的資源投入，我們就是把……"],["沈委員發惠：所以你們就是柿子挑軟的吃，就三、四級機關？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：不是，挑最需要協助的機關。"],["沈委員發惠：事實上，按照中央政府機關辦理員額評鑑作業，你們有一個注意事項第五點有規定，「配合行政院組織調整或重大政策，受評機關之組織設置、業務職掌及人員調移情形較為複雜者」，應辦理實地訪視，有好幾個，總共有10種態樣應該辦理實地訪視。這次113年，我看目前就有幾個二級機關符合你們這些條件，但是你們今年還是不進行實地訪視，這部分我今天要來跟人事長討論，包括交通部事實上做了許多的組織調整，這些調整應該符合我們剛剛所講的員額評鑑辦法注意事項裡面的要件，包括數位發展部，我認為你們都應該評估，符合你們自己的注意要點所定條件的二級機關，是不是應該做一些實地的訪視？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：我跟委員報告為什麼這些組改的機關，我們沒有安排實地訪視，主要原因就是因為他們上一年組改，現在整個業務運作的loading剛好會比較重。不過剛才委員提示得也非常好，我們內部會再評估，再增加兩、三個二級機關。"],["沈委員發惠：再評估啦，因為這個注意事項是你們自己訂定的，這10個項目，我再一個一個唸，「配合業務推動需要，於員額總量範圍內有調整各類人員員額數之需求者」，新調整的機關就是符合你這個第五項的規定，你們就應該要做，而不是讓他們上網去填一填表格算了，應該不是這樣子吧？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是，我想非常謝謝委員的提醒，我們今年會從幾個組改的部會裡面挑幾個二級機關來做實地訪查。"],["沈委員發惠：對，包括目前成立的個資會籌備處，籌備處是算三級機關，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：目前規劃的方向是朝獨立三級機關的方向。"],["沈委員發惠：個資會籌備處是三級機關，個資會如果未來成立了，它是……"],["蘇人事長俊榮：現在行政院內部還正在討論，因為有兩種聲音，一個是獨立二級、一個獨立三級。"],["沈委員發惠：還沒有確定就對了？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：還沒有確定。"],["沈委員發惠：有關個人資料保護也算新的重大政策，所以相關的新機關，它的員額編制我想也應該要在員額需求編制裡面考量，好不好？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：有，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員發惠：最後，今年度7月即將進行的高考，因為去年8月的時候，數位發展部有提出有關資通安全的部分人才應該要增加，為了強化資安，所以我們從今年的高考開始三級新增資通安全類科的招考，對不對？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：總共員額幾名？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：今年因為提出需求的機關只有6個，包含移民署1位、關務署2位、財稅資料中心1位……"],["沈委員發惠：總共幾位？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：總共6位。"],["沈委員發惠：我們整個這樣盤點出來，我們國家一年只需要6個資通安全的人才，新增這個類別只招考6個人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：跟委員報告一下，過去我們在補資安的人力，因為還沒有資安類科，所以都是用資訊能力在補，今年是……"],["沈委員發惠：是啊，就是因為你們去年8月說需要，所以今年才增加這個類科，不是嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：結果增加這個類科只有招考6個人？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這個基本上是由用人機關提出來的。"],["沈委員發惠：全國出來就是故宮博物院需要1個、新竹縣政府需要1個、內政部移民署需要1個，當初提出最需要的數位發展部最後提出的員額是1個。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：1位。"],["沈委員發惠：因為數位發展部需要1個，所以你們辦了新的類科招考，是這樣嗎？"],["蘇人事長俊榮：這是由需用機關提員額，我們報請考選部……"],["沈委員發惠：我跟你講不是啦，我最後做結論，資安這個部分在大家的共識中都是有人才需求的，各個機關都有人才需求，現在資通安全當然是最重要了，但是你們因為有人才需求之後，就擴大招考，擴大的結果為什麼只有6個？因為你們有員額框架嘛！你們都被這個員額匡住了，大家都需要資通人才，但是我的總員額只有這樣子，你們要不要開缺出來？這個部分我希望能夠檢討。你們最後會用約聘僱的方式來解決，但是約聘僱有約聘僱的問題，好不好？我改天再跟人事總長討論。"],["蘇人事長俊榮：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請陳委員俊宇質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":210,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-9","speakers":["鍾佳濱","黃國昌","沈發惠","陳俊宇","林思銘","羅智強","莊瑞雄","吳思瑤","翁曉玲","謝龍介","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","鄭天財Sra 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Resource的意思這個WebHR的系統那我就去了解你們這個系統你們目前的運用我發現你們這個系統不只是你所提的這個有關這些什麼公務員的個資、考積、權序、任免、獎章、獎懲除了這個以外"},{"start":84.463,"end":102.439,"text":"我看我們有關於這個中央行政機關的這個原額評鑑法的原額評鑑每兩年一次的原額評鑑我看你們也要也用這個書面審查你們也是填寫在這個H這個WebHR上面來做書面審查是不是這樣"},{"start":103.453,"end":129.668,"text":"是,事實上這一點我利用這個機會跟委員說明一下因為兩年一次的懸額評鑑我們不希望大家花費太多時間去填所以很多東西就填完以後他直接在資料庫裡面可以馬上做進一步的分析那我現在就是針對從這裡就針對這個中央行政機關懸額評鑑的這件事情我有一些不了解的地方來就教於這個我們人事長"},{"start":130.967,"end":148.95,"text":"第一個就是我們這個目前這個這個行政機關中央行政機關的原額評鑑我們的法規依據是什麼是中央政府機關總原額法對不對總原額法大概第8條第3項我們有在第8條第3項我們提到說一機關每兩年應該評鑑所屬的二級機關的這個原額總數的合理性對不對就是這應該就是這一條"},{"start":158.223,"end":187.254,"text":"那我們目前的這個每兩年進行一次我知道好像今年要再進行這一次對不對到3月底之前他們必須在這個這個WebHR上面把它填表完成對不對對對好3月底以前那是是我想請教這個人事長齁我們現在目前我們現在填完表之後我們大概整個進行的這個這個程序簡單的講一下我們所進行評鑑的這個程序好不好"},{"start":196.331,"end":218.918,"text":"就是你們填完之後進行書面審查嘛對不對那書面審查完以後會召開一些綜合座談對不對綜合座談再來有一些機關你們要實地訪查會有會有會挑一些實地訪查這個我們按照這個行政院行政院我們行政院自己有一個這個今年度113年度辦理所屬二級機關所屬二級主管機關的原額評鑑計畫有一個評鑑計畫按照你們的評鑑計畫裡面"},{"start":223.999,"end":236.253,"text":"你們有提到這個說這個本這個未了解當前政府重要政策業務區塊人力運用納入部分所屬三級四級機關辦理實地房事對不對"},{"start":239.557,"end":262.213,"text":"我們兩年前上一次的評鑑由哪一些由哪幾個三級機關四級機關我們做了實例訪視上一次因為這次還沒決定嘛今年還沒有還沒有開始上一次都是以二級機關為主這一次上所以上一次的三級機關四級機關是零就對了對對對這一次特別加入三級這一次特別加入嘛這是有法規依據的啦齁我知道這個這個你們訪視三級機關四級機關這個是有法規依據對不對有沒有這"},{"start":270.394,"end":285.831,"text":"我們之前有一些個案我們就進行這些個案我這裡剛好利用這個機會跟委員說明一下像原來的零務局改成零業級管理署或者水利署或者你們今年預計要做的三級機關、四級機關房是有哪一些?"},{"start":287.645,"end":289.227,"text":"法務部的部分,矯正新設的部分,還有我們那個"},{"start":308.306,"end":330.939,"text":"還有會移民署移民署的這一塊我們也會有做一些那個部分的保釋你請他們去整理那6個機關等一下用念的念給我聽光你這樣念的時間就知道多久了好這個我要了解說實地訪視現在目前以3級機關4級機關為主我們上一次上這個上一次應該是111年度上一次111年度我們2級機關有沒有去做實地訪視"},{"start":334.571,"end":348.447,"text":"二級機關也有111年度有哪幾個機關進行實地訪視111年度的我們那時候是剛好遇到COVID所以我們那時候是用書面的所以111年度二級機關沒有進行實地訪視我們都做書審"},{"start":355.695,"end":368.385,"text":"市長講的讓我以為我的資料錯了我記得應該是沒有吧111年度對不起剛好是COVID所以二級也沒有三級四級也沒有全部都輸審那這一次有沒有二級機關有沒有要進行實地訪視"},{"start":374.236,"end":395.405,"text":"這一次113年度有沒有計畫?這一次實際訪視的就是剛才委員質詢的就是三級、四級機關可以嗎?三級就是三級機關就移民署、領務局、臺北地檢署、華豪部矯正署、臺北建議、華豪部矯正署、桃園建議跟海委會的海保署這六個機關六個機關嗎?是所以你們二級機關現在已經這一次已經沒有COVID了但你們二級機關你們這一次沒有計畫要進行實地訪視嗎?"},{"start":402.998,"end":403.899,"text":"二級機關只做數面審查為什麼"},{"start":414.953,"end":443.244,"text":"主要的考量是二級機關因為是兩年一次的都是兩年一次兩年一次的一個言語評鑑都是兩年一次依法都是兩年一次對兩年一次所以這不是理由啊為什麼今年度不進行二級機關的實地訪查呢事實上整個實地訪查坦白講需要比較多的資源投入那我們就是所以我們就柿子挑軟的吃因為不是挑最需要協助的機關"},{"start":445.268,"end":456.038,"text":"這個有關吼我們事實上你們自己有有這個按照中央政府機關辦理原額評鑑作業你們有一個注意事項第5點你們有規有自己有有規定了吼這個"},{"start":458.311,"end":481.499,"text":"有關配合行政院組織調整、重大政策等職務執掌人員．這個調移較複雜者應辦理實地訪視．有好幾個總共10種他一樣應該辦理實地訪視那這次113年我看目前就有幾個機關符合你們這些條件二級機關就有幾個符合你們這些條件但是你們今年還是不進行"},{"start":482.386,"end":496.502,"text":"不進行這個這個實例的訪視這部分是我今天在跟要要來跟人事長來討論的包括我們這個這個我們交通部事實上做了許多的這個這個組織的調整這些調整應該是符合我們剛剛所講的這個遠和平淺辦法注意事項裡面的要件"},{"start":502.088,"end":531.714,"text":"包括數位發展部啦齁這些我認為都你們都是不是能夠評估齁就是說在二級機關的部分齁這些符合你們自己的注意要點的裡面去做一些實地的的調查好不好實地的仿視我我這裡跟委員報告為什麼這些主改的機關我們沒有去實地沒有安排實地仿視的主要原因就是因為他上一年主改他現在剛好在整個業務運作operation loading會比較重"},{"start":532.194,"end":547.631,"text":"那不過剛才委員提示的也非常好那我們內部會再評估再增加我們會增加兩張這個注意事項是你們自己訂定的啦我這10條這個10個項目齁我在一個一個念說配合業務需要於原額總量範圍內"},{"start":548.952,"end":573.439,"text":"調整各類人員需求這個你新調整的就是符合你這個第5項的這一條規定嗎?你們就應該要做就不是讓他們上去填一填上網去填一填表格這個就就就就就尊審應該不是這樣子吧?是,我想非常謝謝委員的一個提醒我們今年會增加會從那個主改的幾個部會這幾個部會裡面我們挑幾個二級機關來做實地訪查對,那包括這個"},{"start":579.222,"end":599.16,"text":"這個齁我們這個目前成立的這個各支會籌備處齁各的籌備處是算三級機關嘛對不對目前規劃的方向是朝獨立三級機關的方向來的籌備處各支會各支會本身籌備處是三級機關各支會如果未來成立了他是"},{"start":600.862,"end":601.102,"text":"有,有,好,謝謝委員長"},{"start":629.848,"end":631.381,"text":"最後吼有關這個"},{"start":633.666,"end":634.666,"text":"總共員何幾名?"},{"start":663.614,"end":682.687,"text":"今年因為提需求的機關只有6個,包含移民署1位、公務署2位、財稅資料中心1位。總共6位。總共6位。是。我們最後我們整個國家我們這樣子盤點出來,我們國家一年只需要6個資通安全的人才。新增這個類別我們只招考6個人。"},{"start":687.953,"end":705.095,"text":"我跟委員報告一下過去我們在補治安人力的部分因為還沒有治安內科所以都是用資訊人力在補那今年 是啊就是因為需要你們去年8月就是因為說需要所以今年才增加這個內科嘛不是嗎 是是結果增加這個內科之後增加6個人"},{"start":707.576,"end":732.148,"text":"這個基本上是由用人機關他提出的全國出來就是故宮博物院需要一個新竹縣政府需要一個內政部移民署需要一個最後提出說最需要的數位發展部提出的緣額是一個一個是為了數位發展部他一個所以你們辦了新的內科招考是這樣嗎這是由西用機關他提言我們報請考選部我跟你講不是啦齁最後我最後做結論啦齁你們齁"},{"start":735.224,"end":756.008,"text":"這個資安這個部分在大家共事都是有人才需求啦各個機關都有人才需求對現在資通安全當然是最重要了但是人才需求之後你們就有人才需求所以我就擴大招稿擴大的結果為什麼6個因為你們這個緣額框架嘛你們都被這個緣額所框架住了大家我需要資通人才但是我的總緣額只有這樣子我們要開缺出來"},{"start":760.209,"end":768.443,"text":"這個部分我希望能夠檢討,現在你們最後會用約聘顧的方式來解決啦,但約聘顧還有約聘顧的問題好不好,我改天再跟你,再跟這個人事總長討論好,謝謝委員,謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}