{"error":false,"id":["150441"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150441,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150441","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T09:35:44+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T09:47:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:11:18","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d51b92c3916e03d4ffedc5a8dea5ca6478f8ba9b0039caa7a6210c2463ee6481985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:35:44 - 09:47:02","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司就電價大漲及央行升息對物價波動的影響進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":158,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時35分）主席，麻煩請經濟部曾次長。"],["主席：請曾次長。"],["曾次長文生：委員早安。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長早。我這幾天看到媒體都拿麵包店的例子說有的會漲一萬多塊，我仔細看了那個內容，它說原來的電價七萬多塊，有可能會漲到八萬多塊，它說這個例子還是台電這邊提供的，我現在想請教你，原來如果是繳七萬多塊的話是要用多少度啊？這個你知道嗎？"],["曾次長文生：七萬多塊的話，應該就不是我們原來舉例的那個漲幅會比較小的，七萬多塊的例子大概已經是2萬度電了，它不會去選擇表燈營業，就是有累進費率那一段。委員，我很快把這件事情解釋一遍，第一個事情就是，台電是為了要解釋我們一般民生跟小店家，事實上是累進費率，所以就選了一個例子出來，在小店家的部分，如果是用表燈的這種費率，它有累進費率，所以它才會就是說，因為我們看到的例子是用電幅度不會很大，烘焙不會在這裡面，是麵包的行銷店面啦，但後來我們知道這個事情不夠嚴謹，就把烘焙的拿出來做了另外一次的說明。"],["吳委員秉叡：一個月要用到二萬多度電的烘焙，它的出產量正常來講是多少？它是小店家嗎？"],["曾次長文生：報告委員……"],["吳委員秉叡：會不會是另外一種小工廠？"],["曾次長文生：我這樣說，我們現在有很多就是生產跟店面其實是分離的，這個已經是一個比較集中生產麵包的店。我們知道現在非常多麵包店是連鎖的，有的是有中央廚房，所以我們看到的大概狀況會是如此，我們也說了，後來台電公司也做了一個新的說明，就是類似這種低壓的營業用電，事實上建議它採時間電價，因為我們現在的時間電價是三段式的，只要傍晚16點到晚上22點，就是4點到10點這段時間儘量減少用電，電費可以節約非常多，我在這邊特別跟委員做報告。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個是4月1號要調整，但是夏季電價馬上就又要來了，事實上夏季電價本來就讓人家很有感，像我的服務處是沒有在營業的，但是上班時間他們就是要開門服務，夏季的時候冷氣就一直吹啊，我有3個服務處，光一個服務處兩個月的電價就好幾萬了，夏季要來了，會不會讓大家感受更深？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，因為我們現在電價調漲的機制就是4月跟10月兩次，4月調過了以後，接下來5月的下半月就開始進入夏季電價的計費期間，確實會有一定程度的影響，但是我們……"],["吳委員秉叡：但是比例還是相同的嘛，夏季用電通常用電度都會比較多！"],["曾次長文生：我跟委員報告，我們現在對外宣布的是每一度電的平均價格，事實上，它是整個年度平均，就是夏季事實上繳得比較多，冬季就會繳得比較少，它是整年平均的一個觀念。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是大部分都是用累進費率，不是嗎？所以我用比較多度電的時候，我就會被增加得比較多啊！"],["曾次長文生：住宅的部分是。"],["吳委員秉叡：那開在住宅區的服務處呢？也是一樣用這樣的觀念啊？"],["曾次長文生：委員，這樣講啦，如果是服務處大概不會去選擇營業用電，如果沒有錯的話，你應該還是用住宅用電……"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！"],["曾次長文生：住宅用電是有累進的。"],["吳委員秉叡：對啊！另外，如果沒有用智慧電表，你可以分得出來是哪個時間用的電嗎？"],["曾次長文生：這個部分就是我們現在也在倡導的，如果你要更瞭解自己的用電，比方說如果服務處的用電規模可能會超過700度或超過1,000度，來裝置智慧電表，經過一定的評估，看看選擇時間電價會不會比較好，這個是我們所鼓勵的，因為未來的用電需要更多的那個，就是說它會隨著不同的時間有不同的價格。其實時間電價這件事，臺灣在推動上相較於其他國家已經有一點點慢了，所以這幾年我們也都在加強宣導跟推動這個工作。"],["吳委員秉叡：申請智慧電表不用額外再花錢嗎？"],["曾次長文生：是的，申請智慧電表不需要額外再花錢。"],["吳委員秉叡：台電會負擔嘛，對不對？"],["曾次長文生：應該就是這樣子，是由整個台電來負擔。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，你請回座。請中央銀行楊總裁。"],["主席：請央行楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：吳委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：總裁早。上一次我在這邊跟你請教過，我聽過總體經濟學的學者認為一個國家的CPI最好的標準是2%，超過3%的他把它定義為高通膨，低於1%的話，他認為那也不可取，有可能會有通縮的危險，像日本前面幾十年就陷入這樣的危機，所以上一次好像你也同意這樣子的看法？"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是這樣子，今年主計處的預估以及你們的預估都是百分之二點零幾或是二點一幾喔，其實是滿符合這樣子的觀念。我覺得國人的觀念要改變了，這個需要你們大力的從總體經濟學的角度跟大家說明，不然大家一想到CPI上漲就以為是通膨了，不是喔，CPI的溫和上漲，以2%作為標準是最符合現在國際之間的需要的，如果CPI完全沒有上漲就可能陷入通縮，通縮就很慘了，像現在中國就是通縮，所以中國的經濟狀況就非常的慘。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外我又看到一個觀念，以美國為例，美國的通膨基本上分成三大類塊，第一部分是原料，他認為大概占20%；第二部分是租金部分，他認為占30%；第三項就是服務的項目，占50%，這個服務項目的50%裡面當然就包括工資，因為你提供服務領取資金。臺灣在這方面，我是覺得大家都是從一個角度看問題，應該要想得比較全面一點，之前大家都說工資不漲對國人很不好，對受薪階級是不公平的，可是當工資上漲，如果以美國的觀念，它的占比是前面的那50%，所以工資上漲造成CPI的增加對他們來講是增加最多的耶，對不對？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：電其實是包括在原料的那20%裡面，占比相對是比較低的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：你剛剛一再談到通膨預期，一個最大的問題是如果大家都在講說要漲要漲，這個要漲、那個要漲，媒體也說因為電價要漲所以物資都要漲，其實我認為如果大家眾口鑠金，反而是增加通膨預期的一個原因。"],["楊總裁金龍：沒有錯，委員說的很有道理。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我是覺得你在這邊苦口婆心，那是因為你很溫和，但媒體不會採取你的講法，媒體可能會講說就是要漲，因為它要點閱率嘛，而要點閱率當然越聳動越好啊，所以你看媒體都說這個小店家會漲一萬多塊啦，然後哪個地方又要漲價。舉一個例子，一蘭拉麵，它有澄清說早就已經有漲價的計畫，但現在剛好碰到這個時間點，又把它歸咎為是因為電價要漲，所以一蘭拉麵要漲，我的意思是說，通膨預期就是大家這樣共同累積出來的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，所以政府在行政方面也要做一些行動，也就是說，不能讓廠商稍微怎麼樣媒體就一直說要漲價，要通膨了……"],["吳委員秉叡：我是建議應該在這邊呼籲啦，就是經濟部長所講的，電價的漲價到底占它原料的比例是多少，如果有不合理的上漲，那個才可怕！但是如果要調高工資，因為臺灣一直被詬病基本工資低，如果調高工資而導致CPI上漲，國人反而應該要樂觀其成，代表大家的收入增加，所以CPI會上漲，是不是這樣的觀念呢？"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，當然我也是提供一部分的觀點。你們的理事會在上個禮拜決定升息半碼，你的報告說這也是因為要溫和地去緊縮臺幣，再加上現在的股市這幾天都是很穩健的在兩萬多點，外資也都一直買超，所以外資要進來也應該是美金要進來，可是縮表、資金縮少，照理來講，新臺幣要走強才對，結果相反的新臺幣兌美元在這幾個禮拜還是一樣弱勢，甚至貶了更多，你不覺得你的目的跟這個中間有一點點落差嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我也藉這個機會跟委員報告，事實上，最近因為美元強，不只是臺幣貶值，你看看韓元、日圓，日本提高利率，結果日圓更貶，韓元也貶，貶的幅度都比臺灣還大。人民幣也貶，它一直要守在7.20元……"],["吳委員秉叡：這樣的解釋是因為美元超強？"],["楊總裁金龍：因為美元超強，為什麼美元超強？因為大家預期美國也不會……因為他們現在也很謹慎，降息好像又要延後。"],["吳委員秉叡：本來預期心理是3月、4月會宣布降息，結果沒有降，要到6月才考慮，所以國際之間產生這樣的狀況。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：適當、合理的市場化是很重要的，我們也不能夠讓美國對我們有制裁的可能性。"],["楊總裁金龍：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個也是央行一直在注重的。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：這個要繼續努力，好不好？"],["楊總裁金龍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","郭國文","賴惠員","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","王世堅","鄭天財Sra 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那個委員說的很有道理所以我是覺得你一在這邊苦口婆心那是因為你很溫和你的講法 媒體不會採取你的講法媒體可能就講說就是要漲 因為這樣他要點月率嘛"},{"start":491.122,"end":514.231,"text":"他要點業率他要越聳動越好啊所以你看他就說這個小店家會漲一萬多塊啦然後這個哪一個地方又要漲價現在舉一個例子一蘭拉麵啊他有澄清說他是早就已經有漲價的計畫然後現在因為剛好這個時間點他又把他歸咎說這個店家要漲所以一蘭拉麵要漲"},{"start":515.481,"end":535.489,"text":"所以我就說通膨預期就是大家這樣共同累積出來的所以就是說政府在行政方面也要做一些的行動就是說不能讓就是說廠商稍微媒體一直就是說要漲價要通膨我是建議應該是在這邊呼籲"},{"start":538.89,"end":561.095,"text":"經濟部長所講的就是你這個電價的漲價到底照站他原料的比例是多少如果不合理的上漲那個才可怕但是如果要調高工資因為台灣一直被詬病說基本工資低調高工資而導致的這個CPI的上漲反而應該國人要樂觀其成代表大家的收入增加所以CPI會上漲"},{"start":562.879,"end":583.805,"text":"是不是這樣子的觀念?是,沒有錯啦好,那這個當然我也是提供一部分的觀點你們的理事會在上個禮拜就升息了半碼那在你的報告裡面講說這也是因為要溫和的去緊縮這個台幣那再加上現在的股市這幾天都是很穩健兩萬多點嘛"},{"start":585.505,"end":607.346,"text":"外資也都一直買超所以外資要進來也是應該要美金要進來可是你說表你的資金說少到底來講新台幣要走強才對結果相反的新台幣對美元在這幾個禮拜還是一樣弱勢甚至貶了更多你不覺得這中間跟你的目的跟這個中間有一點點落差嗎"},{"start":608.748,"end":633.805,"text":"我想我也藉這個機會跟委員報告事實上最近因為就是說美元都搶了那不只是說是臺灣臺幣貶值事實上你看看韓元日元日本也就提高利率結果他更更更貶韓元的貶貶的幅度都比臺灣還大人民幣的貶他一直在鎖鎖當機這樣是解釋說是因為美元超強是因為美元超強"},{"start":634.905,"end":649.858,"text":"欸為什麼美元超強因為大家預期呢美元美國呢也不會就像他們現在因為他們現在也很謹慎的就是說他要降息降息好像好像又要因為本來有一個預期心理3月4月會宣布降息結果沒有降要到6月才"},{"start":651.359,"end":668.715,"text":"拜訪率所以產生國際之間這樣的狀況適當的合理的市場化是很重要的我們也不能夠讓美國對我們有這個制裁的這個這樣子的可能性這個也是央行一直在注重的所以這個要繼續努力好不好好謝謝你謝謝董大謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}