{"error":false,"id":["150442"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150442,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150442","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T09:35:17+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T09:45:43+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:26","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d55d0bd5d264a60ef4a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6b606aef97113c26b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"09:35:17 - 09:45:43","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":81,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（9時35分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。","部長，昨天有召開第二次的碳費審議會嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是，第二次。"],["劉委員建國：有沒有什麼新的結論？"],["薛部長富盛：新的結論就是委員他們覺得與其馬上用投票去決定一個費率，沒有考量到整個客觀的環境，以及用科學為基礎，他們希望環境部可以提供包括日本、韓國、新加坡實施碳費的情況做為他們的參考，同時也希望我們把2030年的目標、減碳的做法，提供委員更詳細的資料，他們再來做討論。"],["劉委員建國：有沒有討論到第一波碳費開徵對象應該是預定製造業和電力業，年排放2.5萬公噸的部分？這個有嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，裡面有談到2.5萬噸是不是減免的部分，環境部有提供給他們，對有一些已經有高風險碳洩漏係數比較低的部分，就不應該再享有2.5萬噸免稅額的部分，所以這個已經有修正了，以前是認為排碳大戶2.5萬噸全部減免，現在也沒有了，現在要看情況，我們是從……"],["劉委員建國：所以是針對2.5萬噸的碳排放戶嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：這應該是包括製造業和電力業，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是、是、是。"],["劉委員建國：請部長看一下這則新聞的標題「綠色通膨推升房價，5年內再飆15%？調查：碳費增加營建成本引憂」，你怎麼看待這個事情？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上環境部已經在之前至少……"],["劉委員建國：對不起，我先請教一下，它沒有在第一波嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：對。他們刻意在掀起不必要的恐慌啦，環境部有以新聞稿去駁斥，我們請中華經濟研究院和其他研究單位幫我們估算了一下，大概是0.5%到1%左右……"],["劉委員建國：0.5%到1%，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！"],["劉委員建國：它講15%。"],["薛部長富盛：所以事實上是利用這個機會想要去漲價，我覺得……"],["劉委員建國：部長講不到1%，但是營建業者講15%，這不叫誇大不實叫什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：大家都知道，臺灣房地產價格上漲的主要原因是來自土地成本，這事實上是最高的，其他營建成本才占大概30%左右，所以不應該把所有的漲價都說成是因為碳費，因為碳費到現在都還沒實際收取啊！"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！所以這是司馬昭之心，我們大家都很清楚嘛！公部門環境部或是內政部當然有對外做一些說明，不過我覺得力道還是不大……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們來改進。"],["劉委員建國：如果按照你們的說法是0.5%到1%之間，他們可以一次講到15%，差了15倍甚至30倍，我覺得這是誇大不實的廣告。臺灣整個房價已經紛紛擾擾這麼長時間，現在又有碳費的徵收，但它也不是第一波的碳費開徵對象，竟然可以做出這種事情！這實在是很離譜啦！所以我還是請部長加大力道，不要像之前的機車定檢費，環境部好意沒有讓人民從口袋掏出半毛錢，甚至還搞到讓立院同事去誤會這個事情，我覺得這樣就是很不好嘛！","目前來講，第一波開徵對象的全國家數應該是在472左右嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：比那個還多。"],["劉委員建國：還多一點點？"],["薛部長富盛：我們的數據應該是550左右。"],["劉委員建國：550？"],["薛部長富盛：對，因為我們是把廠和家數兩個算在一起。"],["劉委員建國：所以不是472，是550，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：不管是472或550，反正都沒有所謂的營建和建築，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：應該是這樣嘛！因為你們很清楚地提到，碳費影響混凝土的成本增加約3.2%，鋼筋應該是2.8%，如果以一般鋼筋混凝土的價格而言，平均是3%，以鋼筋混凝土占總營建成本三成來計算的話，碳費對建築成本的影響約為0.9%，就誠如剛才部長講的0.5%到1%，就是不會大過1%嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對啊，事實上是這樣子啊！"],["劉委員建國：所以這篇報導說是15%，實在是太離譜了，有夠「夭壽骨」！不能放任這種業者在那邊漫天喊價啦！所以本席要再度請部長加強這個力道。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝劉委員的提醒。"],["劉委員建國：在我們還沒有開始徵收營建的碳費時，可以做哪些事情？根據聯合國環境規劃所統計，建材及營造階段的碳排放只占26%，有高達74%都是跟建築物的能源使用相關，就是建好以後，簡單說就是這樣，對不對？所以從聯合國的報告可以知道，一棟房子的碳排不是在蓋的時候，而是蓋好之後所產生的熱和能源。但是我這邊有一個數據要再跟部長討論。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["劉委員建國：臺灣從民國89年開始推動綠建築標章，累計到今年2月，共通過4,486件的綠建築標章，其中公部門的建築有綠建築標章的是2,988、將近3,000件，但是民間建案獲得標章的只有1,498件，不到公部門建案的50%。所以現在是只有公部門需要綠色標章，民間都不需要嗎？我知道這是內政部的業管，但是身為節能減碳的主管部門，環境部也不能……"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，事實上是有一點相關，也不是完全沒有關係，因為我們在推動淨零綠生活，其中有一個指標就是綠建築以及節能建築的數量，所以未來環境部應該會在所謂「食、衣、住、行、育、樂、購」這一塊當中「住」的部分，把綠建築標章、節能的標章納進去考量。"],["劉委員建國：對啦！我是在提醒部長，剛才部長很OK啦，就是也知道環境部不能置身事外，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：所以要承擔起來，然後是不是跟內政部好好地來看怎麼樣溝通。從89年到現在耶！你看，將近24年的時間，民間才1,498件，公部門來到快3,000，我覺得落差實在是太大了啦！"],["薛部長富盛：是，有努力的空間。"],["劉委員建國：第三件要跟部長就教的事情是……"],["薛部長富盛：不敢。"],["劉委員建國：部長應該有到便利商店去買過東西吧？"],["薛部長富盛：不多啦！"],["劉委員建國：不多？現在可能會更少，希望部長這幾天多多去幾趟。我們在103年的時候為了節省紙本發票的浪費，在各大超商、賣場都使用電子發票，電子發票到底可不可以回收？還是要丟到垃圾桶？"],["薛部長富盛：電子發票是熱感應紙，事實上是不利於回收。"],["劉委員建國：對，不可以回收。"],["薛部長富盛：最好是數位，直接在手機用app的方式。"],["劉委員建國：app載具。"],["薛部長富盛：對，應該鼓勵這樣子。"],["劉委員建國：部長有掌握這個狀況嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，大概瞭解。"],["劉委員建國：你知道雲端發票的比例現在來到53%，但是有47%的人還是拿到感應紙。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們應該……"],["劉委員建國：我們現在即便用載具或將發票存入信用卡，但是各大賣場、超商還是會將交易明細或簽單印出來，然後消費者不要的話才拿去丟，其實會變成怎樣？只是消費者拿去丟還是店家拿去丟而已啦！就這樣的差別。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：我給你看一下體積，這是我們的感熱紙，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：這是我們以前的傳統發票，你看這兩個體積、面積、物體大小，這一個上面有明細、下面是發票，再來是廣告。"],["薛部長富盛：對，我們資源循環署來檢討一下，如何跟財政部來共同合作，減少使用熱感應紙，因為它事實上對環境是不友善的。"],["劉委員建國：不可回收就是讓消費者或是讓店家丟掉，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["劉委員建國：傳統的還可以回收，是不是這樣？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：現在這兩樣的比例各多少？署長知道吧？"],["薛部長富盛：數據、比例倒是……"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我知道有一部分還是在使用這個熱感應紙。"],["劉委員建國：請我們環境部跟經濟部好好來做一個研議，好不好？是不是短期之內可以降低這樣的使用比例？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["劉委員建國：畢竟我們從107年推到現在，綠色標章是從89年到現在，所以一個要跟經濟部溝通，另外一個要跟財政部溝通。還有這種誇大不實、假借碳排放使得房價飆升的事情，要跟內政部溝通，這三件事情請部長是不是可以在短期內、一個月內，好不好？可以有一些具體的溝通、未來推行方式跟相關的進展給委員會做參考吧？謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，OK，謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。","接下來請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.72534375,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.699718750000002,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.98596875,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.21346875,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":23.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.132843750000003,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.68971875,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.70659375,"end":24.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.457218750000003,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.43971875,"end":34.658468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.09721875,"end":35.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.143468750000004,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.94909375,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.914718750000006,"end":42.150968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.38721875,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.76221875,"end":48.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":51.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.174718750000004,"end":53.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.65971875,"end":56.579093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.916593750000004,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.00409375000001,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.04971875000001,"end":69.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.02409375,"end":80.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.54721875,"end":72.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.27221875000001,"end":76.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.59284375,"end":76.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.01409375,"end":82.58346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.78596875000001,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.87846875000001,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.10596875,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.70471875000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.19346875000001,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.03721875000001,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.82534375,"end":101.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.94346875000001,"end":102.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":109.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.87096875,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.14909375,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.36409375000001,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.06846875000001,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.82346875,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.06346875000001,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.39596875000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.80909375,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.55971875,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.91409375,"end":127.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.35221875000002,"end":132.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.63471875000002,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.72721875000002,"end":138.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.49034375000002,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.76409375,"end":144.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.86096875,"end":143.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.73846875,"end":144.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.64534375,"end":148.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.56471875,"end":150.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":151.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.95659375,"end":153.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.79596875000001,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.62284375000002,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.56346875,"end":157.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.30596875,"end":159.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.75284375,"end":160.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.84971875000002,"end":164.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.49471875,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.55346875,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.96659375000002,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.46409375000002,"end":172.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.05034375000002,"end":178.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.58096875,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.75596875000002,"end":194.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.99534375000002,"end":201.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.23346875000001,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.22471875000002,"end":241.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.42221875,"end":223.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.68096875,"end":242.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.11534375000002,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.95034375,"end":246.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.51096875000002,"end":252.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.28721875000002,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.49784375000002,"end":255.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.52721875,"end":253.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.10909375,"end":256.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.62784375,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.13409375000003,"end":259.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.01159375000003,"end":260.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.64846875,"end":263.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.60159375,"end":264.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.68159375,"end":265.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.01909375,"end":265.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.81221875,"end":268.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.87096875000003,"end":268.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.69784375,"end":285.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.43971875,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.80221875,"end":276.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.85659375,"end":279.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.19409375000004,"end":279.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.21846875,"end":288.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.38659375000003,"end":301.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.87846875,"end":302.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.29596875000004,"end":312.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.38721875000005,"end":314.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.42909375,"end":372.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.35159375,"end":351.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.65534375000004,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.03596875000005,"end":376.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.74846875000003,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.94659375000003,"end":383.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.00471875000005,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.00784375,"end":391.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.56471875,"end":397.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.97346875000005,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.79159375,"end":400.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.74471875,"end":401.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.94284375,"end":402.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.19159375000004,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.06846875,"end":409.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.53659375,"end":411.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.69659375000003,"end":418.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.39596875,"end":421.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.26909375,"end":420.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.93971875000005,"end":435.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.58846875,"end":428.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.54096875000005,"end":446.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.17659375000005,"end":445.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.56034375,"end":447.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.31971875000005,"end":453.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.03221875,"end":451.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.10346875000005,"end":454.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.91346875000005,"end":455.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.19596875,"end":457.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.63034375,"end":460.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.17409375000005,"end":470.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.27409375,"end":469.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.50159375000004,"end":473.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.94409375000004,"end":483.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.55971875000006,"end":477.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.06159375000004,"end":480.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.83721875000003,"end":483.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.87096875000003,"end":486.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.88784375000006,"end":487.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.49909375000004,"end":488.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.27534375000005,"end":489.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.86159375000005,"end":491.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.73471875,"end":492.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.34221875000003,"end":499.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.61159375000005,"end":497.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.31159375000004,"end":501.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.08784375000005,"end":513.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.21284375000005,"end":510.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.1615937500001,"end":518.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.9709687500001,"end":520.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.2703437499999,"end":520.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.43909375,"end":523.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.3415937500001,"end":523.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.9697187500001,"end":529.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.3490937500001,"end":530.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.3490937500001,"end":532.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.6103437500001,"end":531.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.1672187500001,"end":532.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.82534375,"end":535.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.93034375,"end":536.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.33534375,"end":536.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.4153437500001,"end":538.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.7990937500001,"end":540.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.0984687499999,"end":540.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.11534375,"end":540.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.16596875,"end":541.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.4653437500001,"end":542.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.25846875,"end":542.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.8615937500001,"end":548.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.4853437500001,"end":551.0165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.37096875,"end":556.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.9697187500001,"end":554.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.00721875,"end":557.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.56409375,"end":559.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.0278437500001,"end":565.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.4409687500001,"end":563.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.44471875,"end":565.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.5290937500001,"end":565.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.88346875,"end":567.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.53284375,"end":569.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.23284375,"end":572.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.0890937500001,"end":573.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.6965937500001,"end":574.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.6584687500001,"end":588.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.72596875,"end":574.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.93221875,"end":578.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.24721875,"end":588.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.07409375,"end":588.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.37784375,"end":598.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.21596875,"end":610.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.5559687500001,"end":609.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.90596875,"end":620.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.18721875,"end":623.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.9297187500001,"end":622.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.4734687499999,"end":625.77284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.758,"end":14.502,"text":"好 謝謝主席 有請部長請薛部長好 劉文豪部長好部長昨天有在召開第二次的碳費審議會嗎是 有沒有什麼新的結論"},{"start":27.337,"end":40.988,"text":"新的結論就是委員他們覺得以其要用馬上用投票去決定一個費率覺得沒有考量到整個客觀的環境以及用科學為基礎"},{"start":42.449,"end":62.335,"text":"他們希望環境部可以提供包括日本、韓國、新加坡他們實施碳費的一個情況作為他們的參考那同時也希望我們把2030年的一個目標減碳的這個做法提供更詳細的一個資料他們再來做討論"},{"start":64.042,"end":66.563,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":81.347,"end":85.03,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":103.08,"end":105.066,"text":"這應該是包括製造業跟電力業。部長你看一下這個新聞。"},{"start":112.864,"end":139.157,"text":"律師通膨推升黃價5年內再飆15%這個調查攤會增加營建成本隱憂你怎麼看待這個事情事實上環境部已經在之前至少對不起我先請教一下他沒有在第一波對他們刻意在掀起這個不必要的恐慌那環境部也新聞稿去駁斥我們請中華經濟研究院以及其他的研究單位幫我們估算了一下"},{"start":139.577,"end":144.101,"text":"大概是0.5%到1%左右0.5%到1%嘛 對不對他講15%嗎所以事實上是利用這個機會想要去這個長較我覺得部長講的不到1%嘛但是營業者講到15%嘛這叫誇大不實"},{"start":156.738,"end":175.174,"text":"這叫什麼?事實上大家都知道臺灣黃地產占的主要的原因是來自土地的成本事實上是最高的其他營建的成本才占大概30%左右所以不應該把所有的漲價都說因為碳費因為碳費到現在都還沒有實際收的"},{"start":179.725,"end":194.046,"text":"對嘛,所以這個司法招致性我們大家都很清楚不過我覺得公部門環境部還是內政部當然有對外做一些說明不過我覺得那個力道還是不大嘛如果按照你們的說法我們來改進"},{"start":195.127,"end":217.438,"text":"對,不到1%0到5到1%這中間他可以一次跟你講到15%差了15倍甚至差了30倍我覺得這種誇大不實的廣告讓台灣整個房價在這邊紛紛擾擾這麼多死的情況之下那現在又有碳費的這個徵收以他也不在第一波的碳費開支的對象現在就可以做這種事情"},{"start":218.428,"end":241.281,"text":"這真的是很離譜所以我還是請這個部長可以加大這個力道不要像我們之前機車定檢會我們環境部的好意沒有讓人民從口袋掏出半毛錢甚至也搞到會讓立院的同事去誤會這個事情我覺得這樣就是很不好這是一件事情"},{"start":243.151,"end":255.067,"text":"目前來講你如果第一波啦齁在全國的這個加速應該是在472左右嘛加速啦比那個還多啦因為我們不只是比那個還多我們的數據應該是550左右喔550對因為我們是以"},{"start":261.214,"end":288.276,"text":"廠跟家宿兩個都算在一起的所以不是472是550嘛對不對不管472不管550反正都沒有現在的所謂的這個營建還有建築嘛對不對應該是這樣嘛因為裡面這邊很清楚有提到說碳會影響粉泥土的成本增加約3.2嘛然後這鋼筋應該是2.8那如果以一般這個鋼筋粉泥土的建築額演平均是3%"},{"start":289.837,"end":314.014,"text":"應該是佔總營建成本的比例三成來計算的話它會對建築的成本影響約為0.9嘛就像剛才部長講的說0.5到1嘛就不大過1%嘛對不對所以他這講到15%這實在是很離譜的對不對很夭壽我感覺不能放在這種業者在那邊漫天喊價啦再度請部長加強這個力道謝謝劉委員的提醒"},{"start":315.494,"end":333.72,"text":"當我們還沒開始在徵收這個營建的碳的時候我們可以做哪些事情根據聯合國的環境規劃署統計建材及營造階段的碳排放只佔了26%有高達74%都是跟建築物的人員使用相關QE"},{"start":336.862,"end":345.89,"text":"所以聯合國的報告可以知道移動防止碳排不是要蓋的時候而是蓋好之後所產生的熱跟人員但是我這邊有一個數據要跟部長再討論台灣從民國89年開始推動這個綠建築標章累計到現在已經2月共通過4486案的綠建築的標章"},{"start":360.063,"end":389.25,"text":"但是公部門的建築有綠建築標章的2988將近3000件但民間的建案獲得標章只有1498不到公部門的這個建案的50%所以現在是只有公部門需要綠色標章民間都不需要了還是我知道這是內政部的業管但是站在節能減碳的主管部門"},{"start":391.272,"end":417.85,"text":"委員報告事項是有點相關也不是完全沒有關係因為我們在推動淨林立生活那其中有一個指標就是立建築以及節能這個建築的一個數目所以在未來環境部應該會在所謂的十一住行一二購這一塊在住的這部分我們會把立建築標章節能的標章納進去考量"},{"start":418.85,"end":433.584,"text":"對我是在提醒部長就跟剛才的部長很OK啦就是也知道說這個不能完全跟環境部不能推卻於外對不對承擔起來然後是不是跟內政部還好來看怎樣的一個溝通從89年到現在"},{"start":436.287,"end":452.345,"text":"將近14年的時間民間才1498公佈門來到快3000我覺得這種落差比例實在是太大了有努力的空間第三件事情再跟部長就教部長應該有到便利商店去買過東西吧"},{"start":454.104,"end":457.806,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":475.374,"end":499.243,"text":"這個電子花票事實上它是熱感應紙事實上是不利回收啦不可以回收嘛對最好是用數位就是直接在手機對APP載具嘛對對對應該鼓勵這樣子部長有掌握這個狀況嗎是大概了解你知道雲端這個花票比例現在是來到53但是還有47%的人他們還是拿到感應紙"},{"start":500.804,"end":523.207,"text":"然後我們現在即便這個載具或將花票存入信用卡但是各大賣場、超商還是會將交易的明細或簽單印出來然後消費者才拿去丟其實變成怎樣是消費者拿去丟還是店家拿去丟而已就這樣的差別但體積看起來你看這個我給你看一下"},{"start":527.131,"end":540.671,"text":"這是我們的感熱紙嘛對不對就是我們以前這種傳統的花票嘛你看這樣的一個體積、面積、物體大小阿這個上面有明細阿下面是花票啦再來是這個廣告啦"},{"start":543.905,"end":569.114,"text":"我想我們支援行環署來檢討一下如何跟這個財政部這邊來共同來合作減少使用這個感應紙因為它是讓對環境是不友善的不可回收就是就是讓消費者還是讓店家去丟掉對不對這個還可以回收嗎是不是這樣現在這樣的比例多少這樣比多少署長知道吧"},{"start":571.354,"end":597.911,"text":"數據啊比例比例數據倒是我這邊是請我們環境部跟經濟部這邊好好的來做一個研議好不好是不是可以短期之內可以降低這樣的一個使用的比例因為畢竟我們也推了從107年到現在然後那綠色標章是從89年到現在所以一個要跟經濟部來溝通另外一個要跟財政部來溝通"},{"start":598.551,"end":621.916,"text":"還有這個誇大不實的這種假借碳排放的時候房價要飆升的事情要跟內政部來溝通我這三件事情是不是請部長是不是可以在短期內一個月內好不好我們有一些具體的溝通的一個方式未來推行的方式跟相關的一些進展可以給委員做參考吧好謝謝部長謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}