{"error":false,"id":["150443"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150443,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150443","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T09:45:49+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T09:54:29+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:40","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d58ef343e2851c7f54a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6d45d1968440bc2ef5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:45:49 - 09:54:29","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":163,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（9時45分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：部長好。我想知道昨天開會有關碳費費率第一季難產的理由是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：OK，昨天我們碳費費率審議委員會有召開第二次會議，當然並沒有如環境部之前所期待的在第一季結束前……"],["盧委員縣一：他們是希望520之前能完成費率的審議，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：根據氣候法，現在的費率審議基本上是交給委員會決定，但是我們環境部在推動整個碳費的子法並沒有停頓。"],["盧委員縣一：碳費的部分，民眾比較想要知道的是一旦實施以後，他的一般生活開銷會增加多少比例？"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們也瞭解這一點，所以事實上委員會的決定就是必須要更審慎地審視費率。"],["盧委員縣一：大概可以知道一般生活的花費會增加多少比例嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：給盧委員報告，上禮拜委員會這邊有一個提案，就是希望環境部可以轉達給大院，即希望CPI指數能作為未來決定碳費費率的參考。"],["盧委員縣一：所以還是沒辦法知道我們一般民眾大概會負擔多少？如果一天的生活下來。"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，碳費徵收對於一般民眾的生活應該影響不會很大，因為最主要是企業，特別是排碳大戶的確會影響很大。"],["盧委員縣一：OK。現在很多子法的進度都落後，你覺得是什麼原因？"],["薛部長富盛：這個進度落後只要能讓子法更周全，應該……"],["盧委員縣一：明年不是就要實施了嗎？不是明年就要實施了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：對，所以我們在思考是不是整個法制面都完善之後才開始。"],["盧委員縣一：我們在查網路資料的時候，大概就是未公告、待發布，這樣的百分比是不是太高了一點？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上也還好，我們希望今年開徵，當然原本的期待、理想性是從1月1號開始起算，但假如我們費率審議委員會覺得從企業競爭的角度……"],["盧委員縣一：你看一下連結點，已發布的其實占少數，反而是未公告跟待發布的比較多，所以會讓人家覺得明年要實施會不會來得及。"],["薛部長富盛：給盧委員報告，氣候法事實上有12個子法，這裡面是法條的部分，12個子法我在這邊跟委員報告，7個已經公布了，有1個現在在進行預告階段，所以事實上是剩下4個跟碳費相關的子法還沒有預告。"],["盧委員縣一：所以只剩下4個？"],["薛部長富盛：4個的其中3個也已經完成草案，現在在走行政程序。"],["盧委員縣一：接下來是電價要漲了……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們也考量這些因素，所以反而昨天費率審議委員會沒有作成決議也不見得是壞事。"],["盧委員縣一：前天我看了一個報紙報導，工總提出三個缺失跟四點建議，我們大概看一下，它認為沒有進口產品的碳標籤、沒有各產業別的標竿值，因為電力係數居高不下甚至調升，實屬非公正轉型，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：工總前陣子一直在媒體上談到他們的觀點，我們尊重，因為臺灣是個多元的社會，各個團體……"],["盧委員縣一：因為大部分的民眾不瞭解，還是會從媒體來看。"],["薛部長富盛：工總是站在企業的角度來看，但是我們的環團也有他們不同的看法，所以給盧委員報告，事實上我們碳費費率審議委員會21個委員裡面真的涵蓋滿多元的，當我們把委員的……"],["盧委員縣一：他們提到所謂沒有進口產品碳標籤，這個以後會有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：在某個程度上，有企業提到希望臺灣採取所謂的CBAM概念，譬如我舉一個例子，我們國內有一些產業的確過去在減碳這一塊做得非常好，他們的碳足跡比國外相同的產品低很多，它認為我們不應該只有在臺灣實施碳費，針對進口的相同產品也要課予CBAM的概念。"],["盧委員縣一：標竿值的部分呢？沒有各產業別標竿值的部分，你認為呢？"],["薛部長富盛：譬如不管是鋼鐵或水泥生產1噸大概是多少值，我想歐盟他們有所謂的標竿值……"],["盧委員縣一：所以我們自己有訂定了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我們自己是沒有，以臺灣的鋼鐵業者而言，臺灣有用電爐在煉鋼的，也有用一貫煉鋼廠，這兩個排碳量完全差很多。"],["盧委員縣一：當然。"],["薛部長富盛：所以在討論碳費的時候，這兩個企業的觀點完全相反，對於業者的不同角度以及站在他們的角度發表看法，我們給予尊重。"],["盧委員縣一：它有四個建議，你看一下，臺灣版的CBAM、應該跟標竿值掛勾，因為我們沒有標竿值，然後2050年能夠提早公告電力排放係數，你大概的想法是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝盧委員的建議，事實上這幾個議題，我們環境部都有納進去考量。"],["盧委員縣一：你可以就第一點來講嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：因為第一點牽涉到其他部會，歐盟為什麼會採取CBAM？因為他們很早就已經有ETS，也就是碳排放的交易，所以企業很容易買到碳憑證，但是臺灣的碳權交易所在去年8月7號才成立，目前為止還沒有國內的碳權在交易平臺上流通，假如有國外企業要進口到臺灣，事實上它在臺灣買不到我們臺灣的碳權，所以我們不能只學別人的一部分，我們應該瞭解人家的配套措施跟機制，也請盧委員瞭解……"],["盧委員縣一：我也理解，因為他們也沒有……"],["薛部長富盛：不是臺灣不推CBAM，臺灣當然很樂意推……"],["盧委員縣一：接下來是關於原住民的問題，我們還是希望能有原住民的聲音，雖然現在沒有把我們原住民列入專家學者或者是民間團體代表裡面，如果這兩年可能沒有辦法，或者能不能有現行的措施來補救沒有原住民代表的這件事情？"],["薛部長富盛：好，給盧委員報告，這個我們來研究，當然我們整個碳匯機制未來會更成熟，包括自然碳匯也進來之後，那自然碳匯可能跟森林相關……"],["盧委員縣一：我大概研究了一下，氣候變遷因應法已經有納入原住民的一些條文，第三條……"],["薛部長富盛：是，包括公正轉型等等。"],["盧委員縣一：第三條有公正轉型，第五條是知情同意，第八條是主管機關的部分。那第三十三條，我們看一下其第十二款是「協助中央目的事業主管機關執行公正轉型相關工作事項」就結束了，我們希望後面能夠加上「且以原住民族或離島地區為優先補助對象」來嘗試修法，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝盧委員的建議，因為牽涉到碳費，收到碳費，然後再去推動、去使用，應該還有一段時間，應該可以……"],["盧委員縣一：本席這邊會努力。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["盧委員縣一：下一個就是因為按照剛才的法源，就會有所謂的原住民族氣候變遷基金，這個地方來參考加拿大原住民族已經有的大氣利益共享協議，以後作為臺灣實施與森林共享的一個政策，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝盧委員的分享。"],["盧委員縣一：謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝盧委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員。","接下來請陳昭姿委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":10.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.39971875,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.37846875,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.99346875,"end":26.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.01409375,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.06471875,"end":30.152843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.422843750000002,"end":31.890968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.14409375,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.595343750000005,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.91971875,"end":38.354093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.69596875,"end":41.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.83471875,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.21784375,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.32721875,"end":50.267843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.52096875,"end":53.085968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.799093750000004,"end":60.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.291593750000004,"end":69.9103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這個給盧委員報告事實上在上個禮拜的委員會在這邊有一個提案就是說希望環境部可以轉達這個大宴希望CPI指數能夠在未來決定碳費費率的參考大概我們一般民眾的負擔會是多少如果一天的生活下來"},{"start":99.913,"end":128.442,"text":"事實上跟一般的民眾生活碳位的徵收應該影響不會很大因為它最主要是企業特別是排碳大戶他們的確會影響很大那現在很多執法的進度都落後你覺得是什麼原因事實上這個進度落後只要能夠讓這個執法更周全應該明年不是就要實施了嗎不是明年就要實施了嗎"},{"start":129.83,"end":145.566,"text":"呃明年對所以我們當然是思考是說啊是不是在整個法制面都完善之後才開始上在查那個網路的時候你大概下一頁看一下大概就是未公告就是待發布那這樣子那個present是不是太高了一點"},{"start":146.556,"end":174.782,"text":"事實上也還好我們希望今年開增那當然原本是期待理想性是從1月1號開始起算當然假如我們匯率審議委員會覺得從這個企業競爭的角度因為可能看那個連結點就看一下已發布的其實是占少數反而是未公告跟待發布的比較多所以會讓人家覺得說你這樣明年要實施會不會來得及"},{"start":178.066,"end":205.991,"text":"給盧委員報告事實上7號法裡面我們事實上是有12個執法這裡面是法條的部分那12個執法我在這邊給委員報告7個已經這個公布了嘛那有一個是依告現在在進行依告階段所以事實上是剩下4個跟碳費相關的執法還沒有依告那其中4個裡面的3個也已經完成草案現在在走行政程序"},{"start":206.511,"end":209.013,"text":"公總有三個缺失跟四點建議,我們大概看一下。"},{"start":226.388,"end":239.536,"text":"就是說他認為就是沒有進口產品的碳標籤沒有各產業別的標竿值然後因為電力係數居高不下甚至調升或者他是屬於非公正轉型的你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":240.762,"end":269.121,"text":"公總在前一陣子一直在媒體上有談到他們的觀點我們尊重啦台灣是一個多元的社會嘛那各個團體因為大部分的民眾還是不了解還是會從媒體來看事實上他是站在公總企業的角度來看但是我們也有環團有他們的不同的看法所以給盧委員報告事實上我們的碳費費利審議委員會21個委員裡面吼真的涵蓋蠻多元的所以當我們把委員"},{"start":269.701,"end":270.202,"text":"沒有進口產品碳標籤以後會有"},{"start":274.526,"end":301.989,"text":"這個在某個程度事實上是有企業提到希望台灣採取所謂的CBAN的概念就是說比如說我舉一個例子我們國內有一些產業他的確在過去在減碳這塊做得非常好他們的碳足跡事實上是比國外相同的產品低很多那他就認為說我們不應該只有在台灣這樣子實施碳匯針對進口的相同的產品也要刻意"},{"start":303.089,"end":327.908,"text":"那標竿子的部分呢?你認為標竿子沒有各產業別的標竿子這個呢?他覺得譬如說不管是鋼鐵或水泥對不對生產一頓大概是多少次我想這個歐盟當然他們有所謂的這種標竿子所以我們自己有訂定了嗎?我們自己是沒有因為台灣的我舉一個鋼鐵的業者而言台灣也有用電爐在煉鋼的也有用一貫電鋼廠"},{"start":329.409,"end":332.592,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":345.985,"end":371.125,"text":"是,你理解齁?還有四個建議你看一下,就是說台灣版的CBAM然後該跟標竿子掛鉤,所以我們沒有標竿子,然後2050年能夠提早公告它的電力排放係數這樣,你大概的想法怎麼樣?是,謝謝盧委員的建議,事實上這幾個議題我們環境部都有在考量,都有納進去考量。你可以就第一點來講嗎?"},{"start":373.191,"end":394.49,"text":"因為第一點還包括牽涉到其他部會因為歐盟為什麼會採取CBAN因為他們已經很早就這個ETS就是說碳排放的交易所以對企業他很容易去買到碳憑證但是台灣的碳權交易所事實上去年8月7號才成立我們到目前為止還沒有國內的碳權"},{"start":395.451,"end":398.473,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":412.819,"end":413.059,"text":"主席"},{"start":431.934,"end":453.954,"text":"如果說你說這兩年可能沒有辦法,或者說能不能有現行的措施來補救沒有原住民代表這件事情。好,給盧文報告,這個我們來研究啦。當然我們整個碳濾機制未來更成熟,包括自然碳濾進來之後,那自然碳濾可能跟森林相關。大概研究了一下切後邊圈因應法,它已經有納入原住民的一些條文。"},{"start":456.616,"end":477.453,"text":"第三條有公正轉型第5條在知情同意第8條是主管機關的部分那第33條我們看一下就是他大概指第33條的第12項他說協助中央目的事業主管機關執行公正轉型相關工作事項就結束了我們希望後面能夠加上這個且以嚴峻民主或離島地區為優先補助對象"},{"start":480.67,"end":480.791,"text":"主席"},{"start":499.751,"end":503.154,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}