{"error":false,"id":["150447"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150447,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150447","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":1,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"聯席會議","委員會代碼":[15,23],"委員會代碼:str":["內政委員會","交通委員會"],"標題":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T09:17:21+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T09:26:12+08:00","影片長度":"00:08:51","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d57689a3df39283be3e53fb40122520aebf8ba9b0039caa7a6855b1c4d5317d4a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"09:17:21 - 09:26:12","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案。【上開議案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","gazette":{"lineno":124,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（9時17分）謝謝主席。主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請內政部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長早安。部長，本席非常認同以人為本的交通安全管理政策，我想這是全球的趨勢，特別在臺灣這個地窄人稠的地方，未來也是勢在必行的一個法規。我這邊要就教一下部長，在院版的行人交通安全設施條例草案裡面，其中第四條、第五條明列相關計畫經費，我想請教一下部長，這個經費的來源是從哪裡來？"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛在報告的時候其實已經有說明，我們這個法是一個作用法，相關經費就是我們現在跟交通部所編列的4年400億的預算。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這是全部由中央編列，還是中央補助，然後地方自籌？"],["林部長右昌：這個當然就是有一定比例。"],["黃委員建賓：中央補助跟地方自籌嘛！OK，部長，這就是我要請教你的地方，在補助的部分，針對六都財源狀況比較好的地方可能沒問題，可是，部長，針對一些偏鄉縣市，像臺東縣，還有一些鄉鎮公所，在它的財源不是這麼充裕的情況之下，還要再拿出這些配合款，對它的財政無異是雪上加霜，我想對相對弱勢的縣市來講是負擔比較重的，像臺東縣這樣子財政比較不好的地方是不是就不用安全的行人道？"],["林部長右昌：我跟委員報告一下，第一個，這個當然是依財政等級來分擔，不過如果是交通部所列管的這些，我記得是他們所列管的重點優先改善路口，或者是今年底可以完成的，是可以百分之百補助的。"],["黃委員建賓：本席以過去在擔任鄉長的經驗，就鄉鎮來說，現在一般來講，中央的制度就是中央85%，然後地方15%，大概是這樣的分配，其實以過去本席在大武鄉當鄉長，10%對鄉鎮來講，它的負擔就非常重了。我們光是鄉道每年維護的成本都是很困擾的事情。現在這個計畫實施下去之後，強制地方政府一定要執行，對不對？如果錢不夠呢？這個問題也會發生。"],["林部長右昌：沒有，我剛剛說過，第一個，如果今年年底可以完成或者是交通部列管的重點改善路口，中央是全額補助，所以中央努力地方也要努力，大家一起配合。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席只是將我們鄉鎮還有財源不是這麼充裕的縣市的情況告知部會知道並參考。"],["林部長右昌：是，完全瞭解。"],["黃委員建賓：第二個再請教一下，這個經費除了用在設施的改善、遷移還有拆除，最重要的是，這個裡面有沒有包含補償的費用？尤其像是騎樓的整平，騎樓有所有權人，如果按照政府這個規劃直接進行工程，政府執行工程都不用問所有權人嗎？是直接做還是還要問所有權人？"],["林部長右昌：政府在進行相關改善的時候都有一定的程序，當然不是劃了之後就直接執行，而且地方政府對這部分都有一定的流程，也都很有經驗了。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這就是本席要講的，如果你要拆除的話，我們對所有權人是不是有進行補償？"],["林部長右昌：這個應該要看事實的認定。"],["黃委員建賓：如果到時候執行下去，地方政府跟民眾有糾紛會告，中央怎麼處理？如果有這個情形中央要處理。"],["林部長右昌：沒有，這個應該不至於，現在各縣市已經在推動，相關成功的經驗跟案例其實很多。"],["黃委員建賓：像騎樓是私有的，你現在要整平造成的損害，不是也要相對賠償所有權人嗎？對不對？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，改善的時候就沒有什麼問題，我剛剛說事實的認定，你剛剛說到破壞，我不曉得「破壞」的意思是什麼。"],["黃委員建賓：如果這個要齊平，房子的出口要改建，這一定會影響到，房子要改一定會影響到他的權利。部長，這個會後我們再討論，我後面還有其他問題。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["黃委員建賓：這個法規的宗旨就是要建立連續、無障礙的用路環境，目前騎樓的人行道常常有高低不平的情況，如果兩邊的高度落差太大，我知道現在都是用踏階或是斜坡，不過我們在規範裡面沒有看到斜坡要多高。現在臺灣慢慢進入老齡化人口，臺東的老人人口相對也比較多，未來使用輪椅的族群族也會越來越多，身心障礙者同樣會遇到一樣的問題，特別是盲人，其實騎樓對盲人是很不友善的，這部分內政部要怎麼解決？"],["林部長右昌：當然不會只是兩邊這麼短的距離，它基本上是一個大的區域，當然要整個順平，會把高層重新調整跟重新……"],["黃委員建賓：可是……"],["林部長右昌：符合無障礙的通行。"],["黃委員建賓：法規裡面沒有限制高度要多少。"],["林部長右昌：這是一個整體的政策跟框架，不會在這個地方……"],["黃委員建賓：遇到這樣的情況，部裡面有什麼解決方法？"],["林部長右昌：我們當然會有更細的執行指引。"],["黃委員建賓：本席特別強調，要針對這些使用輪椅的族群、身心障礙者，這個部分我們要考慮進去。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["黃委員建賓：另外本席還要請教，沒有辦法設置人行道的道路，像是小巷子，路本來就小了，我們又劃行人友善區，一定造成跟行車搶道的情況發生，又會產生糾紛。我想要請教一下，內政部有沒有規劃達多少寬度以上的道路要設置行人友善區？"],["林部長右昌：你剛剛提到的那個應該是標示型的行人通道，跟我們要劃設的行人友善區可能不太一樣。行人友善區到時候會做一個規劃，然後會公告。如果是行人的標誌線，劃設的寬度多寬，我請吳署長說明。"],["吳署長欣修：大概分幾個概念，很小的巷子就是看你要不要把它當作行人優先區，行人優先區不需要劃，但是必須在這裡面清楚地標示以行人為主，這個在劃設上概念不一樣。至於剛剛委員提到有一些是騎樓，就是騎樓跟人行道要擇一或者是並重這樣的概念去施設，確保行人的空間。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝署長的說明。","本席最後要再請教一件事情，去年新北市新埔捷運站發生令人很遺憾的憾事，就是冷氣掉下來砸死大學生的事件，這算不算人行道安全的問題？"],["吳署長欣修：在所有的職業安全裡面，這一個業者犯了最基本的錯誤，當他在高空作業的時候，不管底下是什麼，他都必須要施設一定的隔離或規範，這個跟人行道無關，也就是說，他並沒有清楚地圍出一個範圍來做。"],["黃委員建賓：署長，本席要提醒，人行道安全的設計跟設施的更新都是最基本的，人行道往上的空間延伸，這一塊是沒有討論到的，我們應該確保人行道上方這個空間不會有一些東西掉落下來，不管有沒有在施工，物品掉下來這個問題我們要考慮在裡面，這部分也請納入這一次的討論。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝部長，謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃建賓委員。","下一位請蘇巧慧委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":152,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,23-1","speakers":["吳琪銘","黃捷","黃建賓","蘇巧慧","李昆澤","張宏陸","牛煦庭","麥玉珍","許宇甄","王美惠","黃健豪","林俊憲","蔡其昌","徐富癸","何欣純","林沛祥","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","廖先翔","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","游顥","洪申翰","李柏毅","陳冠廷","吳沛憶","陳素月","魯明哲","黃仁","劉建國","林國成","張智倫","丁學忠","林月琴","張雅琳"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查「行人交通安全設施條例草案」(一)行政院函請審議「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案；\n(二)委員黃捷等16人擬具「行人交通安全設施條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1132101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.384718750000001,"end":5.2115937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.414093750000001,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.324093750000003,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.26909375,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.707843750000002,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.922843750000002,"end":28.735343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.92096875,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.41346875,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.37909375,"end":43.416593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.416593750000004,"end":43.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.53034375,"end":57.102218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.79409375,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.81096875,"end":57.962843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.962843750000005,"end":58.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.03034375,"end":58.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.95846875,"end":59.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.025968750000004,"end":60.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.072218750000005,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.156593750000006,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.20284375000001,"end":62.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.8228437500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功的經驗跟案例其實很多。像這個旗友是有私有的嘛。那你現在要做成品,你造成的損害不是,也要項目要賠償給所有權利嘛。對不對?"},{"start":269.16,"end":269.22,"text":"沒有。"},{"start":271.941,"end":296.949,"text":"這個改善的時候就沒有什麼問題吧?啊如果你我剛剛在講說事實的認定嗎?如果他是你講說如果是你說如果是破壞那我就不曉得這個破壞的意思是什麼?你像說假設這個像我們如果這個要啟稟以防則出口要改建那這邊一定會影響到啊你家要蓋一定會影響到他的管理嘛"},{"start":303.786,"end":312.109,"text":"法規的宗旨就是要建立連續還有無障礙的用途環境我們目前企業的文型道常常有這種高低不平的情況如果兩邊的高度"},{"start":314.246,"end":314.406,"text":"議員黃建賓議員黃建賓議員"},{"start":343.957,"end":370.615,"text":"他當然不會只是兩邊這麼短距離他基本上就是一個大的一個區域當然就是要整個順便會把那個高層重新去做調整跟重新轉來符合這個無障礙的這樣通行不想在法國裡面你沒有先說高度要多少這個不會去這個是一個整體的一個政策跟一個框架不會在這個地方遇到這樣的情況部裡面有什麼覺得我們當然會有更細的這些執行的這些指引"},{"start":371.576,"end":386.757,"text":"本期也是特別強調是針對這些倫理使用族群所以身心障礙這個部分我們要考慮進去另外想要再請教就是說你如果沒有辦法設置人行道的這些道路像是小巷子"},{"start":387.793,"end":387.953,"text":"委員黃建賓"},{"start":407.234,"end":423.545,"text":"委員你剛剛提到的那個應該是標識型的行人的通道跟我們所謂要畫設的那個行人友善區可能不太一樣行人友善區到時候他會做一個規劃然後他也會公告那那個如果是行人的標誌線他畫設的這個寬度多寬我請吳署長來做說明"},{"start":430.762,"end":431.803,"text":"《行人交通安全設施條例草案》案"},{"start":448.993,"end":449.013,"text":"議員黃建賓"},{"start":467.185,"end":484.43,"text":"市長,最後再請教一個就是去年我們新北市那個新埔街運山發生遺憾的憾事就是那個冷氣掉下來砸死大學生這個事件這算不算人行道安全的問題跟委員報告我想在所有的職業安全裡面"},{"start":485.503,"end":485.563,"text":"委員黃建賓"},{"start":503.399,"end":528.001,"text":"人行道安全它的設計跟設施的更新都是最基本的但是人行道往上的空間延伸這塊是沒有討論到的我們剛剛確保的就是說我們人行道上方這個空間不會有一些東西掉落下來不管它有沒有在施工 不管它有沒有在施工它掉下來這個問題我們要考慮在裡面我想這部分也請納入在我們這一次的這個討論來 好 了解好 謝謝部長 謝謝署長 謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}