{"error":false,"id":["150457"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150457,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150457","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T10:05:30+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T10:15:04+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:34","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5c69f435b6b010160a3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a63309862b0372d3b35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:05:30 - 10:15:04","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時5分）主席好，我們有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我想請問一下，針對碳費的費率，環團現在建議每噸是500，我們政府傾向在300左右，企業建議初期從100開始，部裡面現在決定的金額是多少？"],["薛部長富盛：跟邱委員報告，我們部裡是不會去決定啦！基本上是根據氣候法由碳費費率審議委員會去審查，審查之後他們用什麼方式呈現給環境部，我們到時候再來作決定，我們的責任就是趕快把子法去做預告。"],["邱委員鎮軍：現在12項優先的子法，你們已經完成7項，還有5項沒有完成，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：還有4項跟碳費相關的還沒有完成。"],["邱委員鎮軍：據我盤點，至少還有15項子法不是優先的，加起來都還沒有一個確定的作法，是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：這個有一些是準則，我想我們氣候署應該都有持續在進行。"],["邱委員鎮軍：昨天碳費第二次審查，審議委員有提到，環境部提供較為確實的法律架構才能進一步討論嘛！部長，您現在急著要開始執行的話，這會不會有問題？"],["薛部長富盛：我認同邱委員的看法，環境部應該更周全地考量碳費，包括起徵點。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對啊！因為這樣子會讓人家覺得我們是先射箭再畫靶，到時候影響的問題會非常地大。"],["薛部長富盛：跟邱委員報告，當然各部門在做任何事情都有一些規劃，規劃也要考量實際的情況，包括我們也都瞭解，邱委員也提到，電價要上漲，所以環境部在碳費這一塊，我們也會傳達給費率審議委員會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，因為因應電價調漲，再加上碳費的這個部分，我想對我們的企業或是民間的人民所造成的影響是非常大的。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我們有看到，台電現在大概虧損了四千億左右，如果照這個溫室氣體排放量資訊平台的統計，我們在111年的發電量，碳排量大概是1億0,500萬噸，如果1噸以300元來計算，一年將多支出三百多億。我看到你們報告裡面是寫，我們的電費是不收取費用嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟邱委員報告，根據氣候法裡面的規定，因為台電所發的電量大部分都是提供給其他的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我看到您的報告，全臺灣有24家的電力業者是不用繳費的嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個會扣除掉。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不用繳碳費嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：自營電廠的話要，台電……"],["邱委員鎮軍：自營電廠要嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以台電的不用？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為基於公平的原則，他們是營利，台電是配合政府的政策。"],["薛部長富盛：認同。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他們已經有他們的利潤了，你不應該把他們的利潤又提高更多，讓我們人民來買單，這樣是不行的。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝邱委員的提醒，環境部的確是這樣在做。"],["邱委員鎮軍：有這樣做嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我再請問一下，在碳排有價的74個國家地區，有37個是收碳稅的，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：是，碳稅跟碳費事實上是在一起，對臺灣而言，我們長期也是要走碳稅。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你幹麼現在要走碳費？"],["薛部長富盛：一定要有一個過渡的時期，因為我們目標是要減碳，對環境部而言，收取碳費絕對不是我們的最終目標，我們的最終目標是符合2050淨零排放的這個大目標。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那你這段期間呢？這段期間你還是用碳費嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：這段期間會以碳費當作一個工具。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你現在還是用碳費嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：什麼？"],["邱委員鎮軍：用碳費來收嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，用碳費，因為碳費可以專款專用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有錯，碳費是專款專用，如果是碳稅的話，是到國家的……"],["薛部長富盛：整體的大水庫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：是到大水庫去嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：那等於就是說，碳費是環境部以後的私房錢？"],["薛部長富盛：不能這樣講，這個是公家的錢，不是私房錢。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得這筆錢的運用，我們必須要有一個非常明確的做法。"],["薛部長富盛：跟邱委員報告，氣候法裡面有列13項，都已經很清楚定義了，所以我想環境部大概也沒有權限說想要額外再增加的項目。"],["邱委員鎮軍：目前我們歐盟CBAM是對產品課稅嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們的碳費是針對企業組織？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所謂CBAM初期的規劃產業當然不是我們臺灣主要出口的項目。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：日本跟美國也在評估類似CBAM的做法，臺灣要如何讓國際承認我們的碳費機制？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，歐盟這一塊，他們執行細節也沒有出來，本來說去年底要出來，也沒有出來。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我們現在做，會不會到時候我們的做法不被國際認同？"],["薛部長富盛：不會，根據他們的母法不會，應該會被認證，只是我跟邱委員報告……"],["邱委員鎮軍：會不會像以前我們打高端一樣，打了之後別的國家不認同，我們要重打一次？"],["薛部長富盛：高端後來被證明效果非常好，我個人也是打高端啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：問題那時候也造成了國人的困擾，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：不會啊！有時候是媒體或者是有一些不同觀點的人刻意去炒作的，我個人一直對高端很有信心。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我們不講這個問題了，現在一樣是講到這個，我們擔心的是，如果我們收取碳費的機制不被國際採納，我們有沒有什麼相應的做法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟邱委員報告，基本上我們收的碳費跟CBAM不完全相等，因為CBAM是針對輸到他那邊的產品。跟邱委員報告，事實上經濟部很盡責任，他們已經針對輸歐盟受影響的這些，包括螺絲、鋁製品等等產業都進行輔導了，所以事實上那一塊倒是也還滿不錯的，這些廠商大概都知道，經濟部也採取必要的協助措施，所以跟碳費不必然有關係，因為CBAM要去繳certificate的那個廠家，不必然是環境部要收取碳費的對象，因為它的排碳量沒有那麼大。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，最好是要這樣啦！我們現在來談一下碳費專款專用的部分。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們列了13項用途，這13項用途是什麼？有沒有更詳細的規劃？"],["薛部長富盛：我沒有辦法背起來，現在年紀太大了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你大概講一下。"],["薛部長富盛：我想基本上當然就是以減碳為主，也要顧及包括公正轉型等等的議題……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請問部長，其中有一項，就是補助直轄市、縣（市）主管機關執行溫室氣體減量工作事項，這個部分是指哪些？只要有掛上同樣的字、相關字就符合嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，除了碳費之外，行政院也通過一個氣候變遷調適的計畫，那個就是中央與地方共同來合作，所以氣候法也明確地講補助直轄市……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們對繳費大戶的所在縣市有沒有特別的回饋？"],["薛部長富盛：這個補助的機制還有時間可以討論，因為現在畢竟還沒收……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，希望到時候符合公平正義的原則，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，我再問一下，再給我一點時間。部長，現在您看到我們最後一個，有10項我們苗栗縣爭取很久的廢棄物處理重大案件，這個部分我希望部長能夠協助苗栗縣來辦理……"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為剛剛陳昭姿委員也有講到我們掩埋場的問題，在去年我們苗栗市的焚化爐也是發生了大火，那個部分因為以前是沒有做不透水布，但是我覺得那還是要處理，那對環境還是會造成影響，當然這個計畫比較大，希望部長全力來協助，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，跟邱委員報告，我們絕對會全力來協助，也請邱委員可以試著轉達苗栗縣政府，在計畫的研提方面，也希望能夠配合部裡的一些要求，基本上，我們也是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我可以當這個橋梁，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果部裡面碰到這個問題，可以先聯絡我，我再來協助，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝邱委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員。等一下在廖偉翔委員質詢結束後，休息10分鐘。","現在請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.384093750000002,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.083468750000002,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.16346875,"end":16.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.395343750000002,"end":27.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.16159375,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.70034375,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","star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