{"error":false,"id":["150458"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150458,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150458","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T10:03:57+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T10:17:21+08:00","影片長度":"00:13:24","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d518d627005e318d4eedc5a8dea5ca6478f8ba9b0039caa7a68a3474509b675d045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:03:57 - 10:17:21","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司就電價大漲及央行升息對物價波動的影響進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":357,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時3分）謝謝，我可不可以請楊總裁？"],["主席：請楊總裁。"],["楊總裁金龍：李委員早。"],["李委員彥秀：總裁早安！21日那天，我關注到央行理監事會後的記者會，長期以來，對於央行每一次理監事聯席會議後的記者會，大家都不會有太多意外，上週四下午我突然看到你們的會議紀錄送到立法院來，我剛好在辦公室，我嚇了一跳，我跟幾個好朋友在聊，大家給你取了一個新的外號，叫做Mr. Surprise，還好是升息半碼，半碼對於經濟的成長也是有相當的衝擊，升息一碼的話，我想衝擊就會更多。總裁，你對這個外號會不會很反感？"],["楊總裁金龍：市場要這麼說，當然市場有它的看法。"],["李委員彥秀：我們當然希望不要有太多的surprise，但是外外界給你這個綽號，我覺得也是蠻好玩的，但是我們希望經濟能夠持續的穩定。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：我們當然希望CPI也可以維持在一定的、人民跟央行可以接受的程度。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，謝謝，沒有錯。"],["李委員彥秀：我也關注到你們在會議紀錄提到，物價漲幅維持在2%左右就是升息循環的尾聲，但是我也看到部分理事在會議紀錄裡面提到，這個物價的波動包括對於外食族的影響，包括對租屋族的影響，是不是能夠維持在2%的這個警戒線，其實大家還是有很多的問號，現在外界都把今年CPI控制在2%左右視為一個央行的底線，外界也會認為說這會不會是楊金龍的防線，過去有彭淮南的防線，大家從會議紀錄裡面看到，大家就想說CPI控制在2%上下，所以2%會不會是您的防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：我想長期來看平均2%是合理……"],["李委員彥秀：對，平均2%。"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！因為有些時候會超過2%，有些時候會低於2%……"],["李委員彥秀：對，你覺得什麼是對臺灣民眾最好的一個警戒線？"],["楊總裁金龍：以臺灣來講的話，我想長期平均2%也應該可以接受，就是長期平均啦！"],["李委員彥秀：所以2%就是你的警戒線，也是楊金龍的防線？"],["楊總裁金龍：對啦！"],["李委員彥秀：好，那這麼說好了，如果今年夏季我們的通膨持續非常嚴重，到2.5、2.6、2.7，那我們是不是會持續的升息？"],["楊總裁金龍：不會，因為我剛剛已經在講了，就是說是長期嘛！中長期……"],["李委員彥秀：所以……"],["楊總裁金龍：我跟委員報告，事實上美國到2026年的時候才會到達2%，所以我的意思就是說……"],["李委員彥秀：所以美國不斷的升息，當然升息對於我們的經濟會有一定的衝擊，它是一個手段。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["李委員彥秀：所以這是你重要的工作，到底要不要升息是你重要的手段、貨幣政策緊縮的手段。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒錯。"],["李委員彥秀：所以我才說2%是人民可以接受的，但是如果超過2%，因為美國的通膨也非常的嚴重，所以它不斷透過升息的手段來處理嘛！所以我才會說，你預估今年不管通膨再怎麼樣，我不希望到達3%，但是萬一通膨漲到人民沒有辦法接受，你也不會再升息嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：我們在報告裡面也都講得很清楚，就是我們這次升息的原因，因為我們以前升息都是很溫和的，不像美國這樣……"],["李委員彥秀：總裁，我的時間沒有很多，我只要問結論，就是無論通膨再怎麼漲，你也不會再升息嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：如果說它是短暫的，那沒關係啊！我剛剛也是在講，就是如果長期平均是在2%，我們都可以接受。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你說的長期……"],["楊總裁金龍：中長期。"],["李委員彥秀：我要講下半年，如果下半年到3%，那我不希望……"],["楊總裁金龍：不過如果我們今年……"],["李委員彥秀：它會是短期或長期？因為這次台電的漲價是民生用電也漲，之前是民生用電都沒有怎麼漲喔！"],["楊總裁金龍：如果今年的通膨還是3%的話，那就另當別論了！"],["李委員彥秀：對嘛！主計長也請上來，因為我也關注到這一次用電漲幅是全部都漲，包括民生用電也漲，我有關注到你們報告裡面的內容，無論是直接影響或者間接影響，包括間接影響，就是漲1塊錢的電價，我們民眾要付出五點多的代價，就是5.6倍的代價，也就是間接影響的成本非常高，所以間接影響會是非常大的，這個是我要提醒的。總裁，你可以請回。"],["主席：楊總裁請回。"],["李委員彥秀：第二個，我要請問一下主計長，我關注到王美花部長之前在爭取撥補台電的歲計賸餘，他本來是希望能夠爭取1,500億，以降低我們電價的漲幅，我看到媒體的報導，您說要稍微計算一下，因為到底明年歲計賸餘剩下多少錢還不確定，最後是決定撥補1,000億。我們從2020年開始撥補勞保基金，到2024年已經有2,670億，最後今年的歲計賸餘已經撥補1,000億給台電，那我們剩下來的到底要撥補多少給勞保基金？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，勞保今年連公務預算、連疫後特別預算，我們總共是補助1,300億，我跟委員報告一下，那個1,300億並不是用所謂的歲計賸餘，而是用上一次的那個疫後特別預算就有準備的錢，所以跟這一次的歲計賸餘1,500億無關。"],["李委員彥秀：好，現在照院裡的預估，我們的歲計賸餘本來有1,500億，那1,000億撥給台電，我們差不多剩下500億左右，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：那這500億要怎麼用？你是要怎麼處理？是留給下一任的主計長來處理？還是留給下一任的行政院長來處理？"],["朱主計長澤民：整個歲計賸餘就是進到國庫，那明年的稅收原則上是統收統支，如果統收統支的話，就沒有說一個部分的歲計賸餘用在哪一個地方，另一個部分的歲計賸餘用在哪一個地方，沒有這樣。"],["李委員彥秀：對，我知道，那目前的想法是到底要放在哪裡？"],["朱主計長澤民：目前我們這個500億就是說我們放在……"],["李委員彥秀：留給下一任的行政院長、主計長來決定？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：你有沒有建議？這個也是很重要的嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：不是由我決定，是照整個主計的制度來決定，沒有用完的就是留在國庫裡面，在下一年度編預算的時候，由下一任的……"],["李委員彥秀：下一任的行政院長、主計長來決定？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是，主計長只是編各單位預算……"],["李委員彥秀：那就是主計長可以建議嘛！因為各單位都在爭取，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，他們是要爭取他們的預算，但不是……"],["李委員彥秀：如果你還留在這個位子上的話，就有可能是你嘛！那勞保基金還不知道會撥補多少嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對於勞保基金，我們希望在我們財政有能力的情況之下，我們都會支應它，我們現在的策略就是……"],["李委員彥秀：多少？主計長，我的時間有限，我等一下要罵台電，請回答到底撥補多少？還不知道？沒有想法？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們的想法是不要讓台電的那個基金有減少的情況，它現在的基金大概是有……"],["李委員彥秀：每年都撥補1,000億給台電，所以我才會說勞保基金也很缺啊！都很缺啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：我剛才講錯了，勞保的基金我們現在是有大概9,000億，我們希望這個基金能夠越來越多，讓它能夠錢滾錢，產生更多的利息，讓勞保基金能夠更多。"],["李委員彥秀：那到底撥補多少？有沒有想法？沒有嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我覺得我們會……"],["李委員彥秀：你有建議嗎？還是留給下一任閣揆跟主計長來決定？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為在我離開了以後，下一任的首長要怎麼做，下一任的總統跟院長怎麼做，我不能夠……"],["李委員彥秀：所以勞保基金也不知道要撥補多少，你有沒有建議？你心裡的想法是應該補多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：我離開了就不要再……"],["李委員彥秀：好，500億都留給下一任的行政院長跟主計長他們來討論，好，謝謝。","時間暫停，我先請一下經濟部的政次，主計長請回。"],["主席：請曾次長。"],["李委員彥秀：經濟部這兩天做了很多的梗圖，對民眾來講，當然我們不希望百工百業漲，但是後續通膨會產生衝擊、影響，我們來看一下我們的表，這兩天包括院長在院會的回應，還有你們都在對外講衝擊不大，夏日時間用電可以省多少，從主計總處的預估跟央行的預估來看，無論是直接衝擊或間接衝擊，每一塊錢用電的衝擊、影響，人民要付出的代價，主計總處估計的影響是3.6倍，從央行的數字上來看，衝擊的影響是6.75倍，這個是我覺得後續對通膨影響最大的主要原因，這也是為什麼上個星期央行要升息的最主要因素……"],["曾次長文生：不是這樣算的啦！"],["李委員彥秀：百工百業都有可能漲，你們現在不斷的說，現在漲有部分因素是因為我們要撥補給台電，部分因素是因為國際所有燃料的價格都在漲……"],["曾次長文生：不是這樣。"],["李委員彥秀：事實上，國際燃料價格並沒有漲，我們已經恢復到疫後相關的國際水準。另外，通膨的影響包括間接的影響，在百工百業當中，其實衝擊是大的。王美花說我要去做稽查，看看誰有隨便漲的情形，很多麵店就直接回你說那我乾脆直接關門就算了。你現在告訴我，你有什麼樣的手段可以讓大家不要漲嗎？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，第一個事情就是兩張圖表，這個圖表就是央行跟主計總處的預估，我想應該不是3.6倍跟6.75倍這樣子的意思表示，因為他……"],["李委員彥秀：央行預估錯了嗎？"],["曾次長文生：不是，這是後來加總的方法、表現的方法，我想不是這個意思，我想第一點是這個，第二個是剛剛委員拿的那張……"],["李委員彥秀：直接影響跟間接影響……"],["曾次長文生：委員，我解釋一下你剛剛……"],["李委員彥秀：數字都是主計總處跟央行提供的喔！所以為什麼會有間接影響？"],["曾次長文生：我是說後面……"],["李委員彥秀：用電漲幅1塊錢，人民要付出的成本跟代價其實都是3.6倍跟6.75倍……"],["曾次長文生：它不會是倍數，它是一個百分比，它不會是倍數，6.75倍是675%……"],["李委員彥秀：外界才會說通膨巨獸快要來，就是有你這種硬拗的次長，就是有王美花跟你這種硬拗的次長，不知人民疾苦的次長，你們去看看外面老百姓過得多辛苦，民眾過得辛苦。"],["曾次長文生：委員，我回答您剛才講的那個圖卡……"],["主席：好，時間到了。"],["曾次長文生：那個圖卡講的是1年12個月累積可能可以節省的費用，不是1個月，我想我稍微做一個說明，這樣會比較清楚。"],["李委員彥秀：你的意思是說，民眾以後半夜師傅要早一點、提早五、六個小時去看看麵糰、提早發，去配合你用電的時間來烤麵包，然後民眾要配合你台電的時間才可以去吃到、去買到熱熱的麵包就對了？"],["曾次長文生：委員，我們現在的離峰時間不只是半夜，白天也是離峰時間，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝，資料再書面補充。"],["李委員彥秀：不管啦！民眾有民眾買麵包喜歡購買的時間，一般商店也有……"],["曾次長文生：所以我們講的是烘焙的時間，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：那就是未來都要配合你們就對了啦！"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請郭國文郭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","郭國文","賴惠員","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","王世堅","鄭天財Sra 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少還不知道沒有台電很難沒有想法"},{"start":514.208,"end":541.805,"text":"我們的想法是說不要讓台電的那個基金有減少的情況他現在的基金大概是有...台電每年都撥補一千億給他所以我才問說那勞保基金也很缺啊都很缺啊我剛才講說的是勞保的基金我們現在是有大概九千億我們希望這個基金能夠越來越多讓他能夠錢滾錢產生更多的利息讓勞保基金能夠更多那到底撥補多少有沒有想法沒有"},{"start":542.165,"end":543.365,"text":"所以老闆基金也不知道要撥補多少?"},{"start":557.671,"end":569.001,"text":"你有沒有建議?你心裡的想法應該補多少?離開了就不要再...好啦,就都留給下一屆的行政院長跟主計長他們來討論好,謝謝時間暫停我先請一下經濟部的政事局長請回這個經濟部這兩天每天做了很多的梗圖齁"},{"start":586.972,"end":605.241,"text":"對民眾來講百工百業當然我們不希望漲但是後續對於通膨的衝擊影響從主計處來我們看一下我們的表這兩天包括院長在院會回應還有你們都在對外講說衝擊不大啦可以夏日用時間用電你們可以省多少"},{"start":606.361,"end":619.348,"text":"從主計總處的預估跟央行的預估我們無論直接衝擊跟間接衝擊每一塊錢用電衝擊的影響人民要付出的代價從主計處的影響是3.6倍從央行的數字上它衝擊的影響是6.75倍"},{"start":627.608,"end":641.19,"text":"這個是我覺得後續對通膨影響最大的主要原因這也是為什麼上個星期央行要升息的最主要的因素百光百業都有可能漲"},{"start":643.1,"end":668.69,"text":"百功百業都有可能漲所以你們現在不斷的說現在漲是有部分因素是因為我們要撥補給台電部分因素是我們因為國際的所有的燃料的價格都在漲事實上國際的燃料價格並沒有漲我們已經恢復到疫後的相關的國際的水準那另外通膨的影響包括間接的影響"},{"start":670.421,"end":688.074,"text":"在百公百業當中其實衝擊是大的王美花說我要去做稀茶看看誰有隨便漲很多麵店直接回你說那我就乾脆直接關門就算了你現在告訴我你有什麼樣的手段可以讓大家不要漲嗎"},{"start":694.448,"end":695.909,"text":"數字都是主計處跟央行提供的喔"},{"start":722.842,"end":744.797,"text":"所以為什麼會有漸漸影響?用電漲幅一塊錢人民要付出的成本跟代價其實都是3.6倍跟6.75倍這樣我們才會外界才會說通膨炙燒快到來就是有你這種硬拗的次長就是有王美花跟你這種硬拗的次長不知人民齊國的次長"},{"start":746.738,"end":769.229,"text":"你們去看看外面老百姓過得多辛苦民眾過得辛苦我回答您剛才講的那個圖卡那個圖卡講的是一年12個月累積可能可以節省的費用不是一個月我想說我稍微做一個說明這樣會比較清楚那你的意思是說民眾以後半夜師傅要早一點早提早5、6個小時去看看麵糰提早炸去配合你用電的時間來烤麵包"},{"start":774.491,"end":775.071,"text":"下位質詢請郭國文郭委員"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}