{"error":false,"id":["150494"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150494,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150494","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-26-9","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":9,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[26],"委員會代碼:str":["社會福利及衛生環境委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T11:06:13+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T11:15:56+08:00","影片長度":"00:09:43","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d553b383b34a6ad87da3d9204d572e03aff8ba9b0039caa7a6218123113ebae4d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"11:06:13 - 11:15:56","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍結案49案(含報告事項45案及討論事項4案)。【如經復議則不予處理或審查】\n【專題報告及討論事項綜合詢答】\n【3月27日及28日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":630,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（11時6分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。首先，我們真的非常肯定蔡總統過去八年來推動2050年淨零排放政策的落實。我想，經過這個過程，其實我們也看到一些具體的成果。不過碳有價的時代是真的就在我們身邊，我們也看到，在這個過程裡面，不同的企業部門和不同的團體事實上都有各自的想法，剛剛部長也在答詢過程裡面有充分說明。針對於在審議會裡面環團的聲明，還有工商協進會的呼籲，不知道這一方面部長的看法是怎麼樣？尤其是對於產業的衝擊。因為我們想知道環境部到底是公親還是事主，你的意見是如何？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，雖然我跟社會的溝通不盡如人意，但是無論是環團還是工商團體，我跟他們互動也滿多的，所以事實上我也還滿瞭解他們的想法，這個裡面的確會有一個衝突點。就是說，環團當然是希望每噸的碳費越高越好，能夠給企業界壓力，讓他們趕快去減碳，這個概念是對的。但是我們也必須瞭解，臺灣是出口導向的國家，我們整個經濟發展、產業發展跟民生是息息相關，我們如何在這裡面得到一個折衷點，事實上就是考驗我們的智慧。當然各界對環境部也有一些不同的聲音跟批評指教，我個人來講，我們都虛心接受。但是我們是站在國家角度在看這個問題，所以雖然有時候我們在碳費子法的訂定、公告各方面，在時間上跟預期的有一些落差，也希望大家能夠包容，因為我們總是希望可以更周全地來訂定這個法案。","企業的部分，我也參加過很多工商團體的會議，他們考量到企業未來的生存跟發展，當然希望碳費費率越低越好。可是我們也要記住，臺灣是國際的一份子，業者在臺灣不繳碳費，將來產品賣到歐盟？還是要繳。像之前有委員也提到，為什麼不鼓勵企業界把這個錢繳到臺灣而不要繳到歐盟。所以經濟部現在積極來協助受到CBAM影響的企業。我也跟他們談過將來碳費的收取，也把2030年的目標先訂定，這就是昨天費率審議委員會的一個共識，他們很認同，而且漸漸增加，這些高碳洩漏的企業，真的要針對2030年好好擬訂計畫，要去做自主減碳，要能夠達到這個目標。政府一定會站在協助企業的角度，讓企業在國際更有競爭力。我們的立場一直都沒有變，當然有時候進度沒有辦法如大家的預期，也請大家多多包涵，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長的說明。不過我們也瞭解整個程序還是要有一定的期程，才能夠符合社會的期待。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["王委員正旭：不過我們也很擔心，在這個過程裡面，如果要制訂很好的政策，政策執行還是要有很好的溝通，才能夠讓整個事情的完整度，或者是讓社會大眾理解，可以更為完整。","再說到碳焦慮，除了大企業可能都已經有所準備以外，其實很多中小企業也會不知道到底要怎麼因應這一波，所以這部分在定子法的過程裡面，也麻煩部長再利用各種機會來跟社會各界溝通。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員提醒。"],["王委員正旭：其實在2050淨零轉型的過程裡面，有十二項關鍵戰略，這十二項關鍵戰略裡面，環境部有兩個主辦機關，包括第八項資源循環零廢棄和第十項淨零綠生活，這兩個部分其實都會有很多協辦機關。我們比較好奇的就是在第八項竟然沒有衛福部，所以剛剛蘇委員也表示，希望貴部在制定政策或主辦的過程裡面，應該要把相關部門都納進來。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員提醒。我剛剛就有提到，之前淨零在推動的時候，好像的確有漏掉衛福部，實在是有檢討的空間。"],["王委員正旭：好，針對零廢棄的部分，我們可以看一些數據。我們的廢棄物好像並沒有減少，現在再利用率到了85%好像就已經無法再波動了，未來在再利用率的部分是不是有什麼其他的方式提升？我們很擔心，會不會有人假藉再利用的名義，而實際去傾倒廢棄物？"],["薛部長富盛：跟王委員報告，我們在推動資源循環促進法時，環保團體的確也有同樣的顧慮。所以一直希望我們在資源循環促進法裡面，不要把廢棄物改一個名字叫廢棄資源，後來我們也接受。以現在的科技來講，我們還真的沒有辦法達到零廢棄。所以雖然我們的目標是希望未來零廢棄，但是現階段是一個過渡時期，我們基本上是朝向廢棄物極小化、資源極大化的概念來推動。所以在這一張圖表裡，的確有一個轉折點，在2016年，因為我們對於廢棄物的定義做了一些改變，把更多的垃圾都納到廢棄物裡面來，所以廢棄物整個量會增加。事實上，我們的資源回收率在國際來講，應該也還算不錯，當然還有努力的空間，就如同剛剛王委員講的，到85%、86%，好像就是一個gap，這個就是需要透過科技來強化我們資源回收的力道。"],["王委員正旭：所以，在部裡已經有建立一個智慧系統，可以來做相關的管理跟追蹤？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員正旭：好。我們期待這方面還有更精進的地方。"],["薛部長富盛：好，請王委員給我們指導。"],["王委員正旭：是。","我先確定一下，醫療廢棄物的部分，出自醫療機構的占了0.57%，所以如果我們真的要達到零廢棄，沒有醫院這邊共同來處理，應該是無法達到淨零的目標。"],["薛部長富盛：好，再一次謝謝王委員的提醒。"],["王委員正旭：好，我們再看淨零綠生活，訂了很多指標，這些指標制訂的過程裡面，有沒有經過哪一些比較實證的程序？或者是在讓民眾對於淨零生活的認知達到85%、95%這些目標的過程，我們如何能夠讓民眾真的知道，如何配合整個需求，來因應生活的調整？"],["薛部長富盛：跟王委員報告，事實上我們在執行面來講，有滿多的激勵措施，包括響應淨零綠生活可以透過app去集點，將來可以兌換產品。","另外一個就是透過環境教育，我們也跟教育部在K12這一塊有很多合作。我們跟很多環保團體也都密切合作，來推淨零綠生活的這一塊，假如王委員有必要，將來我想請我們的綜規司，把這部分的書面資料提供給委員參考，也請委員給我們更多的指教。"],["王委員正旭：好，因為全民對話是能不能夠在實際生活落實的一個很重要的過程。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員正旭：所以就請部長及同仁們繼續努力。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員的期許，謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：再過來我們請登記第12號的林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":354,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-9","speakers":["黃秀芳","林月琴","陳菁徽","劉建國","盧縣一","陳昭姿","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","王育敏","蘇清泉","王正旭","林淑芬","洪申翰","李彥秀","洪孟楷","黃珊珊","羅智強","黃國昌","陳冠廷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","楊瓊瓔","張嘉郡","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-03-27"],"gazette_id":"1132102","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132102_00002","1132102_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請環境部部長就「邁向碳有價時代，碳費擬定時程表及碳費審議委員會之相關內容」進行\n專題報告，並備質詢；二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算有關環境部主管預算凍\n結案49案（含報告事項45案及討論事項4案）（前接第一冊）","agenda_id":"1132102_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.27471875,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.396593750000001,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.67471875,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.387218750000002,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.14221875,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.32784375,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.36534375,"end":25.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.90034375,"end":30.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.16096875,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.54409375,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.087218750000005,"end":55.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.976593750000006,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.78596875,"end":57.304718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.47346875,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.77659375,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":72.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.27284375,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.15034375,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.01096875,"end":75.71534375},{"speaker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謝謝部長的說明不過我們也了解整個程序還是要有一定的期程才能夠符合社會的期待不過我們也很擔心在這個過程裡面如果要制定很好的政策可是這個政策之前還是要有很好的溝通才能夠讓整個事情的完整度或者是對社會大眾的讓他們的理解可以更為完整那這邊"},{"start":259.73,"end":259.91,"text":"議員提醒"},{"start":277.1,"end":288.945,"text":"對所有的社會各界來溝通那我們再往下看其實在2050淨零轉型的過程裡面有12項的關鍵戰略我們看到這12項的關鍵戰略裡面在環境部這邊有兩個是主辦機關包括第8項"},{"start":297.188,"end":309.676,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國114案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及�"},{"start":321.044,"end":343.009,"text":"制定政策或主辦過程中,應該把相關部門也要納進來。好,謝謝王文的提醒。我剛剛就提到之前的淨零在推動的時候,好像的確有落掉衛福部,實在是有檢討的空間。好,針對零廢棄的部分,我們可以看一些數據。"},{"start":344.548,"end":354.177,"text":"好像我們的廢棄物並沒有減少。那我們現在再利用率到了85個百分比,好像就已經無法再波動了。"},{"start":355.294,"end":380.548,"text":"這部分未來在利用率的部分是不是有什麼其他的方式我們很擔心這些會不會有人假借再利用而實際去傾倒廢棄物給王文報告這個也是我們在推動資源行為促進法裡面環保團體的確也有同樣的顧慮所以他一直希望我們在這個促進法裡面不要把廢棄物弄一個名字叫廢棄資源"},{"start":381.849,"end":381.969,"text":"主席"},{"start":400.834,"end":403.835,"text":"二、處理或審查中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度中華民國113年度"},{"start":420.819,"end":427.725,"text":"在國際來講應該也還算不錯當然還有努力的空間就是我們剛剛這個王委員講到85、86好像就到了一個CAP那這個就是需要透過科技來這個強化我們在資源回收的這個力道"},{"start":447.842,"end":459.435,"text":"所以在部裡已經有建立一個智慧系統來做相關的管理跟追蹤我們期待這方面還有更精進的地方有關於淨零綠生活的部分我們也發現"},{"start":465.482,"end":470.526,"text":"含報告事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論事項45案及討論"},{"start":494.797,"end":514.529,"text":"這個制定的過程裡面有沒有經過哪一些比較實證的這個程序或者是讓民眾對淨零生活的認知定了85%、90%這樣的過程我們如何能夠讓民眾也真的知道他如何配合整個需求來因應他的生活的調整"},{"start":516.282,"end":536.638,"text":"給王委員報告事實上我們在執行面來講事實上有蠻多的這個等於激勵措施啊包括你響應淨零力生活事實上你可以透過APP去集點那集點將來可以越換對換這個產品那另外一個就是透過環境交易"},{"start":537.378,"end":558.194,"text":"我們也跟這個教育部這個K12的這一塊事實上有很多的合作我們跟很多環保團體也都密切的合作來推這個淨零力生活的這一塊那假如說王委員有必要將來我想請我們中規師把這部分的一些這個書面資料也提供給委員來參考那也請委員給我們"},{"start":561.156,"end":561.176,"text":"議員會議結束"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}