{"error":false,"id":["150497"],"data":{"IVOD_ID":150497,"IVOD_URL":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/150497","日期":"2024-03-27","會議資料":{"會議代碼":"委員會-11-1-20-5","會議代碼:str":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議","屆":11,"會期":1,"會次":5,"臨時會會次":null,"種類":"委員會","委員會代碼":[20],"委員會代碼:str":["財政委員會"],"標題":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議"},"影片種類":"Clip","開始時間":"2024-03-27T11:31:06+08:00","結束時間":"2024-03-27T11:42:02+08:00","影片長度":"00:10:56","支援功能":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/9baf490faf5eb4d5a3969537abb7193cedc5a8dea5ca6478f8ba9b0039caa7a6ef82c2ad75f039eb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:31:06 - 11:42:02","會議時間":"2024-03-27T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第5次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、中央銀行楊總裁金龍、經濟部率台灣電力股份有限公司就電價大漲及央行升息對物價波動的影響進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【3月25日及27日二天一次會】）","gazette":{"lineno":826,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時31分）謝謝主席。有請總裁以及主計長。"],["主席：請楊總裁還有朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["楊總裁金龍：黃委員早。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，總裁還有主計長，我想臺灣的能源政策每年都要討論台電虧損，虧損的金額越來越高，其實應該還是回到我們的能源政策，我們高度地依賴所謂的火力發電，剛好又碰上了烏俄戰爭，整個燃料成本的上漲超乎想像，所以台電累積到現在虧了三千多億。","我們每年都在討論一樣的問題，然後加上目前為止，央行用了很多的工具希望能夠抑制物價，所以總裁，上一次我們在這邊的時候，你還說不知道會不會升息，然後一個禮拜之後就升息，接下來物價可能因為電價上漲還是會繼續往上走，所以我剛剛聽到很多人都在問，我們還有可能再升息嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：基本上，我剛剛也在講，以目前來看的話，我們的政策利率已經是15年來最高了，已經算是很高了。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以升息是個工具嘛！抑制物價的工具。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是升息一樣會推波所謂的房貸壓力，對於小老百姓的生活還是會有一定的影響。"],["楊總裁金龍：是，沒有錯。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個，台電的虧損造成很多民眾對於綠電綠油油、賺飽飽有很嚴重的相對剝奪感，這個剝奪感看到的是民營電廠每一個都賺錢，全世界虧損的只有台電。台電的電價調整，政府必須撥補千億，用這樣的方式告訴一般民眾說只漲一點點，工業大戶漲比較多，但是兩位，工業大戶漲了，他如果是做食品的，他的食品不會漲嗎？會漲吧！工業大戶的電價漲了，難道叫他做出來的東西不漲價嗎？電價跟物價至少是成正比吧！總裁同意嗎？"],["楊總裁金龍：是啦！不過以他們現在11%的漲幅，還算是溫和。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，溫和，但是就是會繼續漲嘛！所以你們的報告裡面也是說對物價指數會有一定的影響，不管是直接或間接。我看到總裁是說央行對於通膨，你認為接下去的政策工具會讓通膨率維持緩步回降。"],["楊總裁金龍：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：你有什麼工具？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，以目前的趨勢來看的話，它是緩步下降的。"],["黃委員珊珊：緩步下降，所以有可能在9月份不用再擔心漲電價，還是我們這一年都不用擔心漲電價？"],["楊總裁金龍：不，漲電價是要經濟部還有行政院來做決定。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，時間暫停，請經濟部。"],["楊總裁金龍：還是要它來決定。"],["主席：請曾次長。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果像剛剛總裁說的，要緩步回降，它的工具大概只有升息，那剛剛次長說我們當然不希望太快，所以電價做了很溫和的處理，但是我只要問，現在這樣補了1,000億，漲了電價，我們有多久可以安心地過日子？還是9月可能也調，明年4月再來一次？"],["曾次長文生：跟委員報告，其實現在……"],["黃委員珊珊：你只要告訴我，我們可以安心多久？4月1日實施這個費率以後，大家在今年有多久可以放心地過日子？"],["曾次長文生：委員，我這樣子講，我們電價在調整的時候，考慮了很多的面向……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以你沒有辦法回答我，是嗎？"],["曾次長文生：我先報告一件事情，我想院長在總質……"],["黃委員珊珊：我只講說百姓要不要「掣咧等」──等到9月、等到明年會再漲一次？以剛剛次長說的……"],["曾次長文生：院長在總質詢有回答過，就是說我們電價審議委員會有提到，院長也有指示了，今年會有1,000億的挹注，在這樣子的前提下……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，我就是說在這個前提之下，你能不能告訴我，明年的4月以前不會再有調漲的狀況？"],["曾次長文生：我可以跟你說我們預估的狀況，但是決策權在委員會。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒關係，這是你預估的狀況。"],["曾次長文生：好，簡單講，我剛才回答了，我們今年考慮到國際價格的變動，以及這1,000億如果可以真正地進來，再加上這次的調整，我們接近損益兩平……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們這麼做完就不需要再漲了？"],["曾次長文生：接近損益兩平，我們會把這個數字去跟委員會作報告。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。主計長，如果電價調整之後，中央政府所有的公部門電價也會漲，對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：電費算起來大概要漲多少？公家機關。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們估計大概是75億左右。"],["黃委員珊珊：漲價的，要多繳75億的電費？漲價。"],["朱主計長澤民：我的意思是說，中央政府各機關的電費大概會增加75億。"],["黃委員珊珊：增加75億。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["黃委員珊珊：我這邊有一個很奇怪的數字，75億之後，有45%是來自國防部，是這個意思嘛？國防部用電最多嘛？"],["朱主計長澤民：國防部大概接近一半，據我知道。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以接下來要繳的錢都編在你明年的預算了嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：明年的預算，114年我們在編預算的時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：正在編嘛？"],["朱主計長澤民：會考慮這個因素在裡面。"],["黃委員珊珊：一定要編啊！不然你根本就沒有錢繳啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們會考慮這些因素。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是現在漲，如果4月1日實施的話，今年有錢來付這個漲的電價嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：在一般的情況下是會，因為電費是在一個綜合性的科目，叫做業務費……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以錢還夠？來得及？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，它可以說是……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以我們要增加75億的支出，這也是一筆很大的錢。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們原則上會儘量在預算額度裡面……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，因為現在萬物皆漲的情況下，大家非常在乎的是一些弱勢，包括醫院、包括大眾運輸、包括農漁業、包括學校，尤其是社福團體，次長，今年這些是給予豁免，對嗎？"],["曾次長文生：今年凍漲。"],["黃委員珊珊：那明年呢？"],["曾次長文生：還是一樣，審議會會討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：審議會會討論，所以我們要編錢去補助他們嗎？主計長，經濟部說今年的豁免他們台電吸收掉了，明年這些機關，包括我剛剛講的農漁業、學校、社福團體、醫院、大眾運輸，我們如果要求編列補助款，可能要編多少錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：如果有做政策決定要補助，我們就會編。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，你算出來了沒？有多少錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是要政策決定才可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：有多少錢？不知道？"],["朱主計長澤民：政策決定的話，就看它的範圍，因為……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們只管漲價，不管政策決定內容？如果你要補貼，你應該現在就有一個底了，現在就大概知道你要補貼多少，除了補貼台電之外，還要補貼這些單位啊！這些單位的錢有多少？次長，你們算過了嗎？"],["曾次長文生：剛才您列舉的那三個……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果單單75億是公家部門，另外我們還要去補貼這些民間團體，民間單位補出來要多少錢？"],["曾次長文生：剛才您舉的例子就是農漁、教育、社福，我們今年9個月大概是24億左右，如果延長到一年，不會超過30億。"],["黃委員珊珊：24億，所以政府總共還要多弄100億出來幫忙這個電價調漲的狀況，是嗎？"],["曾次長文生：我這樣說，總體的政府機關應該是……"],["黃委員珊珊：那就說清楚講明白。"],["曾次長文生：總數75億，是調漲到75億。"],["黃委員珊珊：75億不包括補助的啊！包括嗎？"],["曾次長文生：75億有部分在今年預算就有了。"],["黃委員珊珊：你把相關的細節告訴我。"],["曾次長文生：OK。"],["黃委員珊珊：今年漲價，政府總預算會受到多少影響？第二個，政府部門就要漲75億的電價，然後要去補貼民間，現在民間都在哇哇叫，大家都希望政府能夠做一些補貼，尤其是跟公益有關的。另外，捷運也好，高鐵也好，大家都在哇哇叫，將來民眾面對的是整體生活費用的增加，不單單只是你政府部門而已啊！這些都會影響每一個民眾的生活，所以我需要的是講清楚說明白就好。"],["曾次長文生：電價部分的影響，其實整體會做一個評估，我們也是在做……"],["黃委員珊珊：最後，我只有1分鐘的時間。次長，台電肩負了政策目標，這個我們都理解，虧損也是不得不的結果，但是我認為台電除了多賺錢、少浪費、少花錢，相關的資產活化也很重要，如果從其他的業外可以得到一些收入的話，可以彌補這些虧損。但是這一波的漲價到底要編多少預算、會增加政府多少負擔、增加納稅多少的負擔，我們應該清楚明白地一一說明，不是只是告訴他「你只漲這麼一點點，可能你去買個麵包只會漲兩塊錢」，這種話不要再說了。全部的人都知道電價漲我們要承擔，但是我們要很清楚地知道我們面對什麼樣的未來，所以政府要增加多少錢、補貼多少錢、多久之內不會再影響到人民的生活，這是我們需要知道的，次長，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["曾次長文生：我們在報告裡面都有儘量把這些說明清楚。"],["黃委員珊珊：政策上面，資產活化，讓台電可以有更多的業外收入去賺更多的錢，而不是高度依賴火力發電，讓我們隨著國際的燃料成本不斷上升，完全處於一個沒有辦法自己控制的環境，這才是可怕的事情。"],["曾次長文生：我們的資產一定會儘量活化，但我要跟委員報告一件事，我們很多營業用的土地，就是台電雖然有很多土地，但都是營業用，那個沒辦法變，那是公用事業用地。有少部分可以變的……"],["黃委員珊珊：這就是你們要去努力的啊！"],["曾次長文生：那是法規設計……"],["黃委員珊珊：臺北市曾經有個變電所上面可以蓋大樓，它是努力來的啊！你們不努力，永遠沒有辦法處理，好嗎？"],["曾次長文生：我們現在都在臺北市，只要可以蓋大樓，我們就會做。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，我的意思是說，這就是資產活化，臺鐵開始要資產活化，台電也要，謝謝。"],["曾次長文生：台電會一直在做，謝謝。"],["主席：現在請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":370,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-5","speakers":["羅明才","吳秉叡","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","郭國文","賴惠員","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王鴻薇","李坤城","黃珊珊","王世堅","鄭天財Sra 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是的電費大概算起來要漲多少公家機關 我們估計大概是75億左右漲價的要多繳75億的電費"},{"start":310.981,"end":314.504,"text":"我這邊有個很奇怪的數字75億之後有45%是來自國防部是這個意思嗎?國防部用的最多嗎?所以這些接下來要找的這個錢都編在你明年的預算了嗎?"},{"start":337.145,"end":350.321,"text":"明年的預算11那個4年我們在編預算的時候會考慮這個因素在裡面一定要編啊不然你根本就沒有錢交啊但是現在講如果4月1號實施的話今年有錢來付這個漲的電價嗎"},{"start":354.185,"end":355.666,"text":"所以我們要增加75億的支出這也是一筆很大的錢"},{"start":370.495,"end":371.315,"text":"今年冬場那明年呢?"},{"start":396.249,"end":410.788,"text":"還是一樣跟委員報告省議會會討論所以我們要編錢去補助他們嗎現在是經濟部說今年的豁免他們台電吸收掉了明年的這些機關包括我剛剛講的"},{"start":412.65,"end":438.411,"text":"龍魚月、學校、社福團體、醫院、大眾運輸我們如果要求編列補助款有可能要編多少錢跟那個委員報告一下如果說政策決定要補助的你算出來了沒有多少錢要政策決定才可以有多少錢不知道那個政策決定的話就看他的範圍我們只管漲價不管政策決定內容"},{"start":439.827,"end":452.234,"text":"如果你要補貼你應該現在就有個底了現在就大概知道我要補貼多少除了補貼台電之外還要補貼這些單位啊這些單位的錢有多少次長你們算過了嗎"},{"start":455.309,"end":474.921,"text":"如果單單75億是公家部門另外我們還要去補貼這些民間團體、民間單位的補出來要多少錢那剛才您舉的例子就是農漁、教育、社福我們今年9個月大概是24億左右那如果延長到一年我會超過30億"},{"start":480.567,"end":481.569,"text":"我這樣說就是整個總體的政府機關應該是總數75億是調漲到75億"},{"start":491.55,"end":520.524,"text":"包括嗎?你把相關的細節告訴我今年漲價我政府總預算會受到多少影響第二個我政府部門就要漲了75億的電價然後我要去補貼民間現在每個民間都在哇哇叫大家都希望政府能夠做一些補貼尤其是跟公益有關的另外捷運也好高鐵也好大家都在哇哇叫將來民眾面對的是整體生活上面費用的增加不單單只是你政府部門而已啊"},{"start":521.567,"end":521.587,"text":"臺電兼"},{"start":537.072,"end":540.394,"text":"我認為我們除了多賺錢少浪費少花錢相關的資產活化也很重要如果從其他的業外可以得到一些收入的話可以彌補這些虧損"},{"start":555.78,"end":581.522,"text":"但是整個這波的漲價我們到底要編多少預算會增加政府多少的負擔增加納稅多少的負擔我們應該清楚明白的一一的說明不是只是告訴他你只漲這麼一點點而且你不管是我們可能去買個麵包只會漲兩塊錢這種話不要再說了全部的人都知道電價漲我們要承擔但是我們要很清楚的知道我們面對什麼樣的未來"},{"start":582.583,"end":591.345,"text":"所以政府要增加多少錢補貼多少錢多久之內不會再影響到人民的生活這是我們需要知道的次長你懂我的意思嗎"},{"start":592.713,"end":613.544,"text":"我們在報告裡面都有盡量...政策上面資產活化讓台電可以有更多的業外收入去賺更多的錢而不是每天因為這樣配合我們這些我們的高度依賴火力發電讓我們隨著國際的燃料成本不斷上升完全處於一個沒有辦法自己控制的環境"},{"start":614.344,"end":616.086,"text":"這才是可怕的事情這就是你們要去努力的"},{"start":630.381,"end":647.332,"text":"臺北市我們曾經有個電電所上面可以蓋大樓阿他是努力來的阿你們不努力永遠沒有辦法處理阿我們現在都在臺北市只要可以蓋大樓我們就會走我的意思是說這就是資產活化臺鐵開始要資產活化臺電也要臺電會一直在做謝謝"}]}},"supported_relations":[],"relations":[]}